Do you think they defused kibitoshin so he couldn't stand up to zamasu at all?

[TobyS]

What were the in and out universe reasons for splitting kibitoshin up?

Was it a Toyo or toriyama idea? Probably the latter as it's in both mediums.

Why was this done? Preference for the characters?
Avoiding having to show a scene where every god asks why he looks different?

Do you think it was to set precedent for earring fusion being breakable or to make it so he couldn't defend himself against zamasu or not be able to heal in the zamasu fight?

Could that have been plotted that far ahead with 1/2 arcs away?

Toriyama told Toyo to draw him cooler and more composed in the notes. They even had him scare Kuririn in the anime (although undermined it by having him be scared of 18 the anime is a shit show) and they really show him making a real effort in the black arc, yet they depowered him as well. I've never seen a character be given more plot relavence while simultaneously making them less power relavant really odd combination practically...

What do you think was going on there.

[Cipher]

Given the defusing seems to have been introduced prior to the outline of the Future Trunks arc being completed, I'd guess that Toriyama just ... likes Shin, and wanted him back on his own again.

He does seem fond of him, giving him pretty prominent roles in both versions of Super (especially the manga, where he's incredibly active in the Future Trunks arc, though it's unclear how much of this comes from Toyotaro and how much from Toriyama), and dedicating one of his documented Super manga corrections to guiding Toyotaro's presentation of him.

I've never seen a character be given more plot relavence while simultaneously making them less power relavant really odd combination practically...

Kuririn, notably, is another character whose prominence and relevance increase in the original run after he's no longer in the most useful tiers of power. (His biggest roles come in the Saiyan-Cell arcs.)

[Polyphase Avatron]

I think it was because they were redefining the roles and abilities of Kaioshin (their relation to the Hakaishin, the Time Rings, etc.) so they wanted to make it simpler, rather than have the Kaioshin of Universe 7 be a fusion of a Kaioshin and a non-Kaioshin.

[BagetaSama]

I mean I think, with this emphasis placed on the dichotomy between Hakaishin and Kaioshin, how they create balance in the universe, and how much emphasis is placed on it, I think it would be really weird if the Kaioshin was actually half another Kai, and not their own character. I think him going back to his own character works way better. Kibitoshin's power was totally irrelevant anyway, so I don't see a point in keeping them fused anyway.

[SupremeKai25]

I don't see the connection with Zamasu... they'd still be fodder to Zamasu, fused or not. They'd hardly make a difference. Even Present Zamasu would easily defeat them, since he was a prodigy and the strongest Kai in the cosmos.

[Lionel]

Wasn't aware of Toriyama's preference for Shin. I admit that the early presentation of him as this enigmatic figure with a strange aura about him at the 25th tournament carried some potential that was sadly unrealised. Kibitokai did offer greater power but Shin individually seemed more interesting. I do wish that he could possibly take some inspiration from Zamasu's efforts to train and improve himself. It's highly unlikely that he would become a powerhouse or anything but perhaps his magical abilities could improve a great deal.

[theherodjl]

Kibitoshin was too weak to contribute in the fight against Pure Boo so I doubt that he was defused just to even the odds against Zamasu. You could multiply Kibitoshin's strength by a thousand times and I still think Zamasu has it in the bag.

[TobyS]

Goku didn't absorb God ki in the manga and Trunks certainly didn't. Trunks is on par with Goku's super Saiyan 3.

Goku states that Trunks is stronger then Zamasu and he won't be able to conquer the universe without black.

Kibito was base Gohan tier while Shin was a lot stronger then Kamiccolo who's trained for 7 years. He may have also trained since.

The two kids who were weaker than base Gohan made someone stronger then the kids as super saiyans. The fusion multiplier is pretty huge, like over 50 times, even dropping it to like 2-10 times due to it being a bad fusion due to the power gap and like the opposite of a rivals boost in a master servant relationship I find it weird he could no do nothing.

I mean the whole point of getting them to do it was showing Goku the power up, because why show him just the procedure when it's just clipping an earring on.

He's sorta intimidated by SS1 Goku but it could be read as being intimidated by Goku and Vegeta at the same time by trying to break them both up and even if he succeeded they've used time and energy and then have to fight Dabra and possibly vegeta after being wounded not to mention using time they don't have. Plus he's seen a glimpse of Goku's SS2 while he fought Yakon.

Originally he thinks he can help against Gotenks Buu, which while he's told he's wrong but imo has to count for something that his power grew so much it overwhelmed himself and he thought that at all. Shin is a rookie but he's not a thug or crazed like Nappa or Perfect Cell.

When kid buu comes along he's told Goku (SS3 implicitly) with backup was from SS2 Vegeta can handle it. Which wouldn't have been wrong except for Goku's unexpected inability to summon all his power as SS3 after getting too tired in a living body, a case never tested before.

From elder Kaioshins perspective keeping kibitoshin from risking death is icing on the cake by letting these mortals handle it.

From there they go straight to giving genki for the spirit bomb so earth can start saving itself and then he can't teleport in to help so we never see.

The SS3 tier kid buu can't insta kill fat Buu or Mr Buu despite being stronger.

Not long after the defeat of Buu Zamasu is greatly impressed by his assumption Kaioshin and Kibito beat kid buu. I think the reverence in the wording means towards the implication kid buu is stronger then Zamasu. It would be worded differently if it was you guys are the next strongest after me or I hear you guys are somewhat tough yourself.

IDK I feel like shins boost would have to be insanely low like 2x and you'd have to lowball shin as well to make him NOT relavant...

However as people have pointed out from the probably timing this wasn't probably why they did the defusion.

Ironically he'd be really useful just for his healing abilities.

[precita]

I think Toriyama just liked his original design, he's really short and has a mohawk, and he just looks more memorable like that than in the fused form.

A lot of stuff in Super seems like Toriyama was nostalgic for earlier characters, like bringing the Pilaf trio back, Master Roshi suddenly becoming a fighter again, Freeza returning twice, etc. I wouldn't be surprised if him prefering Shin's original design is part of it.

[theherodjl]

I really doubt Shin was that much stronger than Kamiccolo, I think Shin's status in the universal hierarchy freaked Piccolo out more than anything. Shin boasted that all 5 Kaioshin could kill Freeza with a single blast....but Android arc SSJs could do the same thing so that was hardly an impressive feat by that point. When it came to physical blows, SSJ Kid Trunks actually scored a significantly better hit on Fat Boo than when Fat Boo allowed Shin to hit him a couple times. And when we saw the fight from the older Trunks' future, Dabura(who was about Perfect Cell-tier, maybe only half of Fat Boo's strength) was pwning Trunks, Shin, and Kibito at the same time. Shin may have put up a confident facade initially, but he really wasn't as strong as his position may imply. I'd give Shin like a 20-30% increase over Kamiccolo, any higher seems like it would be stretching it.

[Lionel]

Shin has frequently been compared with MSSJ Goku from the Cell Games whereas Piccolo may be equal to or moderately stronger than a Cell Jr by the Buu arc. I find the power discrepancy there to be adequate enough while not being too over the top for either character.

I think where Shin excels is his magical abilities. They appear to be capable of subduing an SSJ2 level person if only barely. Makes you question why Kibitokai's paralysis arts and magic couldn't have been put to use against Kid Buu. It would have been perfectly reasonable for the Potara fusion to elevate those abilities to the level equivalent of an SSJ3 fighter.

[Nodeo-Franvier]

I think at the very least kibitoshin must be SPC level, the fusion boost would be ridiculously low otherwise.
And Kibito couldn't have been much lower than Super Vegeta consider that he could hold his own against Zamatsu.

[TobyS]

I think at the very least kibitoshin must be SPC level, the fusion boost would be ridiculously low otherwise.
And Kibito couldn't have been much lower than Super Vegeta consider that he could hold his own against Zamatsu.

Ehh Kibito was only base gohan level unless he improved since then.

Zamasu was about to deliver a vicious blow to his exposed back when it was called off. It was only a friendly spar as well.

[dbgtFO]

Was it a Toyo or toriyama idea? Probably the latter as it's in both mediums.

Why was this done? Preference for the characters?
Avoiding having to show a scene where every god asks why he looks different?

I'd say it's probably bit of both, but seems like way more of the latter. The timing surely can't be a coincidence given the merger conveniently was no more by the time they had to interact with the newly introduced gods, who obviously would inquire why they merged in the first place.

I mean outside of Toyo throwing in an acknowledgement of Majin Buu by Zamasu, the atrocities commited by this age old Demon doesn't get any mention at all from the new characters.
Freeza had heard of him, but never met him, Beerus and Whis have shown no knowledge of him and the same goes with all the other gods from the other universes.
I keep coming back to how it seems like it was swept under the rug deliberatly by Toriyama.

[TobyS]

Was it a Toyo or toriyama idea? Probably the latter as it's in both mediums.

Why was this done? Preference for the characters?
Avoiding having to show a scene where every god asks why he looks different?

I'd say it's probably bit of both, but seems like way more of the latter. The timing surely can't be a coincidence given the merger conveniently was no more by the time they had to interact with the newly introduced gods, who obviously would inquire why they merged in the first place.

I mean outside of Toyo throwing in an acknowledgement of Majin Buu by Zamasu, the atrocities commited by this age old Demon doesn't get any mention at all from the new characters.
Freeza had heard of him, but never met him, Beerus and Whis have shown no knowledge of him and the same goes with all the other gods from the other universes.
I keep coming back to how it seems like it was swept under the rug deliberatly by Toriyama.

Zamasus acknowledgement of Buu could be to show how Zamasu has his nose stuck in mortal affairs, it's established the kaioshins don't interfere much, but zamasu enthusiastically volunteers that he thinks it's good kaioshin did get stuck in. So there's like characterisation but ultimately it seems it's an excuse for Zamasu to find out about Goku and some others being stronger then Shin.

This gives him the reason to look it up on godtube.

But yeah I can't help but think the split was to make it so they don't have to explain it to all the other gods and he looks more like him and the universes are more similar and stuff, I don't think it was done to pre-empt him fighting Zamasu but it works nicely that way.