Other races potential compared to the saiyans.

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Nodeo-Franvier
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Other races potential compared to the saiyans.

Post by Nodeo-Franvier » Sun Nov 01, 2020 11:12 am

The saiyan race are not that strong in the grand scheme of things, Goku and co only got as far as they are thanks to special training and power up they receive. Under the same condition Cui,Zarbon,Dodoria and the Ginyu Force should easily surpassed them.

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Re: Other races potential compared to the saiyans.

Post by Kakkaroto735 » Sun Nov 01, 2020 11:44 am

Nodeo-Franvier wrote:
Sun Nov 01, 2020 11:12 am
The saiyan race are not that strong in the grand scheme of things, Goku and co only got as far as they are thanks to special training and power up they receive. Under the same condition Cui,Zarbon,Dodoria and the Ginyu Force should easily surpassed them.
Potential isn't a great word here. Saiyans have a pretty low starting power in the grand scheme of things but have massive potential compared to other races. If a random Saiyan and Zarbon had equal experience the Saiyan would be stronger but thats just because Saiyans gain faster than others.

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Re: Other races potential compared to the saiyans.

Post by Lionel » Sun Nov 01, 2020 12:30 pm

Do you know how many times the Saiyans have been perched on the pedestal of having no limits to their strength? It's frequent throughout Dragon Ball. I personally have grown tired of the trope and wish something or someone could come along to shatter that presumption but Toyotaro seems keen on maintaining it. It's easier and more marketable to provide the Saiyans with new and gaudy transformations that sell merchandise and appeal to the target audiences.

All of that isn't to say that the other species lack potential -- well except maybe for the humans. Apparently their potential is so paltry that surpassing Captain Ginyu is considered to be a legendary accomplishment and the zenith of what they're able to do in some fans' eyes. They just always come up short next to the Saiyans. It's like they can't find innovative or even just common sense methods to keep up like the Kaioken.

I don't like the current attitude for Dragon Ball when it comes to the Saiyans. It's like Goku's intention for having the Earth steel itself so that it can survive without him back in the Buu arc was completely discarded after that arc. I don't care for that whatsoever, frankly.

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Re: Other races potential compared to the saiyans.

Post by precita » Sun Nov 01, 2020 1:16 pm

Doesn't Super prove that Freeza's race, and whatever Hit's, Toppo, and Jiren's race are have the same potential as Saiyans? The difference is we only see one from each.

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Re: Other races potential compared to the saiyans.

Post by TobyS » Sun Nov 01, 2020 2:01 pm

precita wrote:
Sun Nov 01, 2020 1:16 pm
Doesn't Super prove that Freeza's race, and whatever Hit's, Toppo, and Jiren's race are have the same potential as Saiyans? The difference is we only see one from each.
Honestly we have Goku and Vegeta having potential but they are outliers, pretty much every other saiyan who ever lived ever is far weaker than Chaozu.... So maybe the saiyans collectively don't have a lot of potential.
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Re: Other races potential compared to the saiyans.

Post by Melee_Sovereign » Sun Nov 01, 2020 2:10 pm

Saiyans have zenkai. Other species don't.

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Re: Other races potential compared to the saiyans.

Post by Polyphase Avatron » Sun Nov 01, 2020 4:47 pm

I guess angels are the strongest race, unless you count whatever Zeno is as a race.
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Re: Other races potential compared to the saiyans.

Post by LightBing » Sun Nov 01, 2020 5:55 pm

We can't really make comparisons between 99.9% of the races since we only saw one or two members at best. The stronger ones being mutants like Freeza, his father and the Ginyu force.

Regardless Saiyans are built to fight, physically and mentally. With some broken assets like zenkais, Oozaru and Super Saiyan. The latter makes them the race with most potential among mortals.

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Re: Other races potential compared to the saiyans.

Post by LoganForkHands73 » Sun Nov 01, 2020 6:19 pm

There's plenty of other races who have shown equal or superior fighting potential to the Saiyans, so yeah, the fetishisation of them by the series is confusing but I guess every show needs a tagline. Even the weaker Namekian warriors were a class well above most of Freeza's elite soldiers. As precita said, many races introduced in Super dwarf everything that came before. As far as I recall, Jiren was never said to be some prodigy or mutant -- he just did nothing but train his entire life and he became stronger than a Destroyer. His race must have an ungodly amount of potential.

Joe Rogan: "Dude, imagine if a whole bunch of Jirens grouped up and trained, they'd be fuckin unstoppable, man... *lights bong*... wanna try DMT?"

The same can be said of Toppo, Hit, Dyspo, etc again assuming that they aren't considered abnormal. Even the Metalmen are stronger than most Saiyans could ever dream of. Let's also not forget the Earthlings. Most of the main human Z-Warriors are far stronger than Saiyan elites at this point.
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Re: Other races potential compared to the saiyans.

Post by Mad Swami » Sun Nov 01, 2020 7:29 pm

Really Super has made most other races crazy strong and Saiyans weaker in comparison. U11 warriors are god-tier fighters without god ki, Frieza has his golden form, the U6 Namekians are potentially SSB level due to them fighting Gohan (Gohan could have held back to reserve stamina. Also they fused a bunch but still), Android 17 fought.....poachers.... literally almost everyone can fight gods without needing godly power except Saiyans. If Captain Ginyu was revived he'd be able to train and reach SSG power in a year.

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Re: Other races potential compared to the saiyans.

Post by Lionel » Sun Nov 01, 2020 7:49 pm

What the non-Saiyans need is a jumpstart -- potential unlocks, Kaioken, god ki, ect. Yes, the Saiyans do have an inherent advantage that allows them to excel more rapidly; that's completely understood. It doesn't mean that others are or should be incapable of bridging the gap with existing tools, however. We know Hit was able to train and better himself to the point of keeping pace with SSJB Goku against Jiren when they fought together. How is that not possible for others like Piccolo or the humans?

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Re: Other races potential compared to the saiyans.

Post by LightBing » Sun Nov 01, 2020 8:05 pm

By some of the logic going on here. If we only saw one Goku at ToP we should assume all Saiyans can get Ultra Instinct?

Also everyone in ToP is either a prodigy or a mutant. These are the best fighters of each Universe so why are Saiyans being underplayed if they probably put more people at the tournament than any other race.

We don't know if Jiren's race is comparable to humans and he's the exception. There's simply no information, only the Saiyans, Humans and Namekians are explored enough.
From those, Saiyans have the highest ceiling due to Super Saiyan, while Namekians (Warrior Cast) have the highest floor going by Nail. This strictly going by race traits.

But at the end of the day in this Universe everyone's potential is limitless. Training methods, technique's, etc, have the most influence.

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Re: Other races potential compared to the saiyans.

Post by Melee_Sovereign » Sun Nov 01, 2020 8:24 pm

Mad Swami wrote:
Sun Nov 01, 2020 7:29 pm

Really Super has made most other races crazy strong and Saiyans weaker in comparison.
This isn't actually true.

I think you guys in this thread are making the mistake that, just because it's been shown that there are a number of races that can contend with or are superior to Saiyans (mainly Goku and Vegeta), doesn't mean the majority of races that actually exist in the Dragon Ball verse, are anything close to Saiyans.

Think of all the random aliens we've seen throughout the series that pretty much just come off as regular people. The random crime boss that Hit assassinated. The random civilians on the planet Toppo and Dyspo were dining at. The random anarchist civilians that Sidra erased. The Babari. The Galactic King. Monaka. The random alien referee for Champa and Beerus's tournament. The random aliens that tried to steal animals from 17's island (one of them couldn't even stand on King Kai's planet). The random aliens on Ribrianne's planet. Many of Frieza's subordinates that are clearly not warrior-types (e.g. he's shown to have various scientists, doctors, engineers, random ship crew etc..) Cheelai and Lemo. Jaco (he's pretty powerful, probably comparable the strongest humans). I can go on and on.

There's many species that rival and/or are superior to Saiyans, but that's not the majority of species that actually exist in Dragon Ball. Characters like Jiren, Hit, Frieza, Toppo etc... may just so happen to be members of the very few most powerful species on the multiverse.

Remember, the whole point of the Tournament of Power was to see who the strongest fighters in the multiverse are. The Kais and Destroyers didn't pluck random alien individuals from random planets. They searched and searched and searched until they found powerful fighters. We even see Sidra deeming a planet as no good, and them struggling to find good fighters.

With that said, I think it's safe to assume that Saiyans are still among the very small minority of an extremely powerful species. They're just clearly not the only ones.

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Re: Other races potential compared to the saiyans.

Post by Mad Swami » Sun Nov 01, 2020 9:05 pm

Melee_Sovereign wrote:
Sun Nov 01, 2020 8:24 pm
Mad Swami wrote:
Sun Nov 01, 2020 7:29 pm

Really Super has made most other races crazy strong and Saiyans weaker in comparison.
This isn't actually true.

I think you guys in this thread are making the mistake that, just because it's been shown that there are a number of races that can contend with or are superior to Saiyans (mainly Goku and Vegeta), doesn't mean the majority of races that actually exist in the Dragon Ball verse, are anything close to Saiyans.

Think of all the random aliens we've seen throughout the series that pretty much just come off as regular people. The random crime boss that Hit assassinated. The random civilians on the planet Toppo and Dyspo were dining at. The random anarchist civilians that Sidra erased. The Babari. The Galactic King. Monaka. The random alien referee for Champa and Beerus's tournament. The random aliens that tried to steal animals from 17's island (one of them couldn't even stand on King Kai's planet). The random aliens on Ribrianne's planet. Many of Frieza's subordinates that are clearly not warrior-types (e.g. he's shown to have various scientists, doctors, engineers, random ship crew etc..) Cheelai and Lemo. Jaco (he's pretty powerful, probably comparable the strongest humans). I can go on and on.

There's many species that rival and/or are superior to Saiyans, but that's not the majority of species that actually exist in Dragon Ball. Characters like Jiren, Hit, Frieza, Toppo etc... may just so happen to be members of the very few most powerful species on the multiverse.

Remember, the whole point of the Tournament of Power was to see who the strongest fighters in the multiverse are. The Kais and Destroyers didn't pluck random alien individuals from random planets. They searched and searched and searched until they found powerful fighters. We even see Sidra deeming a planet as no good, and them struggling to find good fighters.

With that said, I think it's safe to assume that Saiyans are still among the very small minority of an extremely powerful species. They're just clearly not the only ones.
They're some of the most powerful....with devine intervention. My whole point is the Saiyans only contend with the powerful minority with special boosts as opossed to natural power. Unless they are Gohan and Trunks who have hybrid power and in Trunks' case random boost

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Re: Other races potential compared to the saiyans.

Post by Melee_Sovereign » Sun Nov 01, 2020 9:23 pm

Mad Swami wrote:
Sun Nov 01, 2020 9:05 pm

They're some of the most powerful....with divine intervention.
Not Broly. He doesn't use divine power, and he's probably more powerful than Jiren.

My whole point is the Saiyans only contend with the powerful minority with special boosts as opossed to natural power.
It's been like, what, four non-Saiyans who have rivaled Goku and Vegeta's god power with only their natural power?

I can name Frieza, Hit, Jiren and Dyspo (who looks to be the same species as Beerus, a noteworthy fact). Everyone else has either had God ki (Toppo with his Destroyer ki) or a special boost (Kefla is a Saiyan, plus she's a fusion, Universe 3 are modified, much like 17 and 18, and they fused). All the other Universes pretty much couldn't contend with Goku and Vegeta.

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Re: Other races potential compared to the saiyans.

Post by Mad Swami » Sun Nov 01, 2020 9:42 pm

Melee_Sovereign wrote:
Sun Nov 01, 2020 9:23 pm
Mad Swami wrote:
Sun Nov 01, 2020 9:05 pm

They're some of the most powerful....with divine intervention.
Not Broly. He doesn't use divine power, and he's probably more powerful than Jiren.

My whole point is the Saiyans only contend with the powerful minority with special boosts as opossed to natural power.
It's been like, what, four non-Saiyans who have rivaled Goku and Vegeta's god power without them having god power of their own, or no special boost?

I can name Frieza, Hit, Jiren and Dyspo (who looks to be the same species as Beerus, a noteworthy fact). Everyone else has either had God ki (Toppo with his Destroyer ki) or a special boost (Kefla is a Saiyan, plus she's a fusion, Universe 3 are modified, much like 17 and 18, and they fused). All the other Universes pretty much couldn't contend with Goku and Vegeta.
Broly is in no way stronger than Jiren I just cant buy that. However, his great power is one of legend. He is a freak of nature. Being modified by tech shouldn't make someone god level however.

Hit
Jiren
Frieza
Dyspo
Toppo
Saonel and Pilina
Obuni
17
All SSB level. SSG at least.

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Re: Other races potential compared to the saiyans.

Post by Melee_Sovereign » Sun Nov 01, 2020 10:04 pm

Mad Swami wrote:
Sun Nov 01, 2020 9:42 pm

Broly is in no way stronger than Jiren I just cant buy that. However, his great power is one of legend. He is a freak of nature. Being modified by tech shouldn't make someone god level however.
He might be. It's not clear. It took SSB Gogeta to beat him, and I have a hard time believing Ultra Instinct Goku is above SSB Gogeta.

You specifically used the terms "special boost" and "natural power". Cybernetic modification counts as a special boost, and it definitely doesn't count as natural power. Plus, they fused.
Toppo
He uses divine power. He's in the same category as Goku and Vegeta.
Saonel and Pilina
Obuni
Not really. They never were shown contending with SSB Goku and Vegeta. They couldn't even beat Piccolo.

17
He's a cyborg. That's a special boost and doesn't count as natural power.

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Re: Other races potential compared to the saiyans.

Post by Mad Swami » Sun Nov 01, 2020 10:19 pm

Melee_Sovereign wrote:
Sun Nov 01, 2020 10:04 pm
Mad Swami wrote:
Sun Nov 01, 2020 9:42 pm

Broly is in no way stronger than Jiren I just cant buy that. However, his great power is one of legend. He is a freak of nature. Being modified by tech shouldn't make someone god level however.
He might be. It's not clear. It took SSB Gogeta to beat him, and I have a hard time believing Ultra Instinct Goku is above SSB Gogeta.

You specifically used the terms "special boost" and "natural power". Cybernetic modification counts as a special boost, and it definitely doesn't count as natural power. Plus, they fused.
Toppo
He uses divine power. He's in the same category as Goku and Vegeta.
Saonel and Pilina
Obuni
Not really. They never were shown contending with SSB Goku and Vegeta. They couldn't even beat Piccolo.

17
He's a cyborg. That's a special boost and doesn't count as natural power.
Toppo without divine power was SSB level. He became SSBKK level with G.O.D power.
A17 and the other androids were modified with tech. It's pretty silly that tech would match godly power.
The Namekians beat Piccolo and gave Gohan a struggle.
And sure Broly could be but I actually find it impossible to say SSB Gogeta>Mui Goku. At least at that point in time

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Re: Other races potential compared to the saiyans.

Post by PerhapsTheOtherOne » Mon Nov 02, 2020 10:34 am

As far as each mortal race overall is concerned, the Saiyans are almost certainly the strongest we've ever seen on average.

Many of them were fighters, and they valued strength above all else. Most Saiyan warriors under the employ of King Cold and Freeza seemed to be better than the average lowly grunt in his army. Not by a wide margin, mind you, but certainly more than average.

And then there are the Universe 6 Saiyans, who lived for longer than their Universe 7 Counterparts AND are good guys who seem to be stronger on average seeing as how their best are up there with Goku and Vegeta despite their godly training. There's something else to be said about how these particular Saiyans don't kill each other for being weak, nor do they conquer weaker races; they seem to fight evildoers.

Saiyans most definitely have the most potential on average because ALL Saiyans could potentially become massively powerful under the right conditions, and there have been many more strong Saiyans than there have been of the other races we've seen.

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Re: Other races potential compared to the saiyans.

Post by Polyphase Avatron » Mon Nov 02, 2020 1:49 pm

The U6 Namekians were fusions of their entire species. That explains their strength.
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