Other races potential compared to the saiyans.

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BWri
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Re: Other races potential compared to the saiyans.

Post by BWri » Mon Nov 02, 2020 2:11 pm

Melee_Sovereign wrote:
Sun Nov 01, 2020 9:23 pm
All the other Universes pretty much couldn't contend with Goku and Vegeta.
Goku, Vegeta, and Broly are anamolies amongst the Saiyans though when you really think about it. I keep revisiting this thought that there are truly no limitations in the Dragon Ball universe only advantages and disadvantages. At base level, among all the races in the universe Saiyans are actually mid-tier -- I'm talking about universe 7 specifically.

Vegeta and Nappa, elites of their race, were looked at like pipsqueaks by other members of Freeza's army which was composed of various alien races. Even Raditz, a veteran member of Frieza's army paled in comparison to an average Namekian warrior. Despite living on a peaceful planet with gravity comparable to Earth's those warrior Namekians managed to be twice as strong as Raditz, someone who was apparently very active in combat. It's possible that those warriors had already engaged in fusion but also very doubtful seeing as how Nail described it as a last resort that was basically taboo in the culture.

We also know that not all Saiyans have or can tap into their S-Cells. Only a rare special breed can. The only transformation every Saiyan has access to is Oozaru a x10 power boost that introduces other vulnerabilities. And zenkais, while greatly beneficial for a combat race, don't seem to typically be as wildly imbalanced as they were on Namek. Normally, they seem to yield much smaller percentages. The zenkais we see from Namek and via Zamasu seem to be dramatic mutations.

We've also seen that each race has many outliers when it comes to overall strength levels. The main cast are composed of the strongest members their respective races, same with the antagonists and villains. So essentially we are seeing mutants fight other mutants. With that in mind it's difficult to say which race possesses what potential. For fighting specifically though, Saiyans seem to have the most advantages from the base level onward but I'm not including potential in that.

I think that those who push past their "limitations" genetic or otherwise, which the entire cast does several times over, will be able to gather large reserves of power no matter what. Humans, for instance, may only have low reserves of power compared to Saiyans because they are a race that aren't accustomed to wielding ki. Maybe some years down the line they will gain that proficiency. Our elite human fighters are all stronger than the classic elites of Saiyan society by a manner of several magnitudes. Tien would mop the floor with King Vegeta for instance despite the king likely having much more combat experience. Though to be fair to King Vegeta, he may have access to S-Cells as well.

There's also racial mysticism to consider as well. When you add that into the mix, Namekians and Saiyans would have the highest potential due to Namekian Fusion and the Super Saiyan God ritual. With a sizeable population and the right conditions, warriors from these two races would naturally be the strongest, though we don't know much about the average capabilities of Frieza's clan. Humans with their sealing abilities and methods of attaining immortality without Dragon Balls could be up there too if they honed in on those methods properly. Then there's human tech which is pretty scary in the grand scheme of things.
Melee_Sovereign wrote:
Sun Nov 01, 2020 10:04 pm
He's a cyborg. That's a special boost and doesn't count as natural power.
I think other than the infinite energy, which may or may not be generated by a mechanical device of some sort, that you could possibly see the androids as a genetic mutation of humans. It's the same base after all and they are altered on a molecular level. They are kind of like the X-Men or even the Captain America-esque super-soliders of Dragon World. It's not natural power but it could be possible with human genetics. I'm not saying that it IS possible, but that it may be a possibility locked inside the human gene.
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Re: Other races potential compared to the saiyans.

Post by BWri » Mon Nov 02, 2020 2:46 pm

Nodeo-Franvier wrote:
Sun Nov 01, 2020 11:12 am
The saiyan race are not that strong in the grand scheme of things, Goku and co only got as far as they are thanks to special training and power up they receive. Under the same condition Cui,Zarbon,Dodoria and the Ginyu Force should easily surpassed them.
Sorry for the double post, but yes, I believe there's some validity to this. Anime or movie, we have instances of Zarbon level aliens becoming as strong and stronger than Piccolo in only 4 months. That Piccolo, who is far stronger than Namek and android era Super Saiyans and Frieza. That's a lot of potential.

Ultimately, if you include everything each race is capable of, Humans are actually the most dangerous. After my last post, I figured that out. Despite naturally having what seems like the lowest potential of power including low base power and seemingly slowest rate of growth, humans still have some of the best mysticism, martial arts, and technological feats in the multiverse. As a matter of fact, A HUMAN WON THE MULTIVERSAL TOURNAMENT :lol: . Let that sink in for a minute. I think if the Omniking counts it, then we can count it too.

So humans appear to possess either the 2nd or third most powerful connection to the mystic arts behind the Namekians and possibly the Yardatians. Not only that, but human tech is some of the best in the universe. I think human space travel is very behind but in terms of everything else, humans seem to have other races beat. It's only with the recent reveal of 7-3 that we have even seen anything close to what Dr. Gero was able the create out in the universe. With human tech, Gero basically produced his own human Frieza, with what seems like identical potential for power growth and infinite energy. So yeah, if Bulma and the Z fighters ever got serious about defending the Earth from invading aliens or, heaven forbid if they turned rogue and decided to conquer the universe, I think they could do some real damage.
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Re: Other races potential compared to the saiyans.

Post by Melee_Sovereign » Mon Nov 02, 2020 3:03 pm

Mad Swami wrote:
Sun Nov 01, 2020 10:19 pm

Toppo without divine power was SSB level. He became SSBKK level with G.O.D power.
I know, but he still received god training, which is shown to raise your base strength dramatically anyway.

A17 and the other androids were modified with tech. It's pretty silly that tech would match godly power.
It's still not their natural power. The whole point of the thread is comparing other races to Saiyans. 17 is not an accurate representative of natural human power compared to Saiyans.

If a Saiyan were modified by Dr. Gero with cybernetics, they'd be far above 17, especially if they had god power on top of it.

The Namekians beat Piccolo and gave Gohan a struggle.
I don't think Gohan is really god level. Also, completely forgot. The Namekians were fused with the entirety of their population's warrior class.

And sure Broly could be but I actually find it impossible to say SSB Gogeta>Mui Goku.
SSB Gogeta is almost certainly far above Kefla, and Kefla contended quite well against MUI Sign. And I don't believe the gap between Sign and Mastered MUI is that great.

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Re: Other races potential compared to the saiyans.

Post by Melee_Sovereign » Mon Nov 02, 2020 3:27 pm

BWri wrote:
Mon Nov 02, 2020 2:11 pm

At base level, among all the races in the universe Saiyans are actually mid-tier -- I'm talking about universe 7 specifically.
This is plain not true. Saiyans would still be in the top-tier in Universe 7. The majority of races in the universe are just like humans. Regular people who don't fight. Frieza didn't just have military subordinates. He had plenty of scientists, doctors, random ship crew etc... Frieza's warrior class subordinates comprise the top most powerful people he could find. They're not just a bunch of random aliens.

We've seen plenty of alien races that are just normal people in Universe 7. E.g. Frieza's non-fighting subordinates, the alien poachers that invaded 17's island, the alien referee in the Champa arc, Monaka, the Galactic King, those aliens in the Copy Vegeta arc (not the bad guys), Cheelai and Lemo etc...

Saiyans are still top tier.

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Re: Other races potential compared to the saiyans.

Post by BWri » Mon Nov 02, 2020 3:55 pm

Melee_Sovereign wrote:
Mon Nov 02, 2020 3:27 pm
BWri wrote:
Mon Nov 02, 2020 2:11 pm

At base level, among all the races in the universe Saiyans are actually mid-tier -- I'm talking about universe 7 specifically.
This is plain not true. Saiyans would still be in the top-tier in Universe 7. The majority of races in the universe are just like humans. Regular people who don't fight. Frieza didn't just have military subordinates. He had plenty of scientists, doctors, random ship crew etc... Frieza's warrior class subordinates comprise the top most powerful people he could find. They're not just a bunch of random aliens.
Right, but they were still vastly superior to the Saiyans. Vegeta, the strongest Saiyan of his race at the time was ten times weaker than Ginyu. He wasn't even half as strong as Recoome and Zarbon and Dodoria were out of the league of most Saiyans, even Bardock and his entire team of Saiyan war vets who do nothing but fight and get zenkais got washed by him. Saiyans as a whole aren't all that special, specifically those in U7.
Saiyans are still top tier.
Those on Earth are, but they aren't representative of the entire race. Every Earth Saiyan is unique in some way.
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Re: Other races potential compared to the saiyans.

Post by Mad Swami » Mon Nov 02, 2020 4:18 pm

Melee_Sovereign wrote:
Mon Nov 02, 2020 3:03 pm
Mad Swami wrote:
Sun Nov 01, 2020 10:19 pm

Toppo without divine power was SSB level. He became SSBKK level with G.O.D power.
I know, but he still received god training, which is shown to raise your base strength dramatically anyway.

A17 and the other androids were modified with tech. It's pretty silly that tech would match godly power.
It's still not their natural power. The whole point of the thread is comparing other races to Saiyans. 17 is not an accurate representative of natural human power compared to Saiyans.

If a Saiyan were modified by Dr. Gero with cybernetics, they'd be far above 17, especially if they had god power on top of it.

The Namekians beat Piccolo and gave Gohan a struggle.
I don't think Gohan is really god level. Also, completely forgot. The Namekians were fused with the entirety of their population's warrior class.

And sure Broly could be but I actually find it impossible to say SSB Gogeta>Mui Goku.
SSB Gogeta is almost certainly far above Kefla, and Kefla contended quite well against MUI Sign. And I don't believe the gap between Sign and Mastered MUI is that great.
The Namekians being able to reach god level through that is kind of ridiculous no? Also Gohan is absolutley god level.What about Hit, Jiren, and Dyspo however? They are all god level and there is no real good reason as to why. Jiren is just strangley powerful, Hit just "gets better", and Dysp....Dyspo has nothing.

Also Kefla is stronger than SSB Vegito from the Zamasu saga. The gap between sign and MUI is pretty large. SSB Gogeta is probably inbetween Sign and MUI

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Re: Other races potential compared to the saiyans.

Post by Melee_Sovereign » Tue Nov 03, 2020 2:41 pm

Mad Swami wrote:
Mon Nov 02, 2020 4:18 pm

Also Gohan is absolutley god level.
How?

What about Hit, Jiren, and Dyspo however?
There's no explanation for them. They appear to be special. I've already accepted that they, and Frieza, are the anomalies, but there's only four of them. That's not a lot.

There's the possible headcanon that Dyspo's species is exceptionally powerful, which is why Beerus and Champa were chosen to be Gods of Destruction. Remember, unlike Angels and Supreme Kais, Gods of Destruction are born mortal who are later appointed godhood. So that means it ought to be possible for mortals to achieve god-levels of power. Angels generally seek out exceptionally powerful mortals to be Gods of Destruction, so why is it so farfetched that there are a number of mortals like Hit, Jiren, Dyspo etc... to be as powerful as they are?

Also Kefla is stronger than SSB Vegito from the Zamasu saga.
How? If that's the case, then that would have to mean that Kale and Caulifla individually are far above SSB Goku and Vegeta in the Zamasu saga.

SSJ2 Goku by himself (while worn out from Jiren) is able to take on both LSSJ Kale and SSJ2 Caulifla. So by the Tournament of Power, Goku and Vegeta individually are a lot stronger than Kale and Caulifla (we can reasonably conclude that they're each twice as strong as Kale and Caulifla) That should mean that their fusion with the same transformation, should be twice as strong as Kefla with the same transformation e.g. both fusions at SSJ2 for instance. And Goku and Vegeta's fusion can go Blue on top of that.

SSB Gogeta should be far above Kefla.

The gap between sign and MUI is pretty large. SSB Gogeta is probably inbetween Sign and MUI
I think the only main difference between Sign and MUI is that Goku knows how to use MUI to attack. That's what the main problem was with Sign. Sure, there might be a power difference, but that's not the main thing that separates the two.

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Re: Other races potential compared to the saiyans.

Post by Mad Swami » Tue Nov 03, 2020 3:30 pm

Melee_Sovereign wrote:
Tue Nov 03, 2020 2:41 pm
Mad Swami wrote:
Mon Nov 02, 2020 4:18 pm

Also Gohan is absolutley god level.
How?

What about Hit, Jiren, and Dyspo however?
There's no explanation for them. They appear to be special. I've already accepted that they, and Frieza, are the anomalies, but there's only four of them. That's not a lot.

There's the possible headcanon that Dyspo's species is exceptionally powerful, which is why Beerus and Champa were chosen to be Gods of Destruction. Remember, unlike Angels and Supreme Kais, Gods of Destruction are born mortal who are later appointed godhood. So that means it ought to be possible for mortals to achieve god-levels of power. Angels generally seek out exceptionally powerful mortals to be Gods of Destruction, so why is it so farfetched that there are a number of mortals like Hit, Jiren, Dyspo etc... to be as powerful as they are?

Also Kefla is stronger than SSB Vegito from the Zamasu saga.
How? If that's the case, then that would have to mean that Kale and Caulifla individually are far above SSB Goku and Vegeta in the Zamasu saga.

SSJ2 Goku by himself (while worn out from Jiren) is able to take on both LSSJ Kale and SSJ2 Caulifla. So by the Tournament of Power, Goku and Vegeta individually are a lot stronger than Kale and Caulifla (we can reasonably conclude that they're each twice as strong as Kale and Caulifla) That should mean that their fusion with the same transformation, should be twice as strong as Kefla with the same transformation e.g. both fusions at SSJ2 for instance. And Goku and Vegeta's fusion can go Blue on top of that.

SSB Gogeta should be far above Kefla.

The gap between sign and MUI is pretty large. SSB Gogeta is probably inbetween Sign and MUI
I think the only main difference between Sign and MUI is that Goku knows how to use MUI to attack. That's what the main problem was with Sign. Sure, there might be a power difference, but that's not the main thing that separates the two.
Gohan was able to lightly spar with SSB Goku and took a punch from SSBKK20 Goku without dying. He isn't SSBKK20 level but he clearly shows some God tier strength in that bout. Plus how he was able to fight Dyspo who is absolutely god level. The last thing that kind of proves it, or I guess last two things is that Gohan I am pretty sure fought with Toppo a bit and Gohan was very confident in his ability to deal with Frieza if he needed to.

I don't really hate this or anything. I just think it's interesting that there are a decent number of beings without divine intervention or divine ki within them who were capable of reaching god levels of strength when Saiyans, a race that Vegeta declares are naturally the strongest, need god ki to keep up.

Kefla kicked Goku so hard her power was greater than the SSB Kaioken times 20 spirit bomb. I think the Spirit Bomb is stronger than Vegito was honestly. However, Kefla could be at Vegito Blue's level (maybe). However, I think the T.O.P Showed just how powerful UI was and in fighting Kefla might have been trying to answer the "what's stronger, SSB fusion or UI?"
I also don't think Kefla's power makes any real sense. The only things they have is that Goku was tired, and Kale's fluctuating power was amplified. Kefla is too strong than she has any right to be, but in the Anime, they establish her as being probably Vegito Blue level at least.

No, it's not the main thing per say. The whole lesson is fighting smart not just hard. However, I think there is a substantial difference in power between the two just due to his feats against Jiren and the fact Jiren was going one hundred percent when before he looked fairly relaxed. Not to mention Omen got stronger and stronger with each trigger so perhaps third Omen's gap is smaller than the previous iterations. I will say though, the current depiction in the Manga makes MUI seem like its in a whole new league.

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