Is SSJ Worth Anything Anymore???

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Is SSJ Worth Anything Anymore???

Post by theherodjl » Thu Dec 03, 2020 12:24 am

The power creep has certainly made the strength of SSJ quite irrelevant in today's DB so is there anything else useful about it at this point? Besides being used as a flashlight or for instant hair dye?
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Re: Is SSJ Worth Anything Anymore???

Post by precita » Thu Dec 03, 2020 12:42 am

Goku and Vegeta still used their Super Saiyan forms (well it was probably SSJ2) in both the Universe 6 tournament and Tournament of Power. So they haven't done away with them completely. They seem to use it now to preserve energy before going all out with their Blue forms.

I remember wondering if we'd see the end of SSJ after the Blue forms appeared in Movie 15, but no, we continued to see regular Super Saiyan after.

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Re: Is SSJ Worth Anything Anymore???

Post by Grimlock » Thu Dec 03, 2020 7:00 pm

Super Saiyan is still being used a lot, as it is the basis for Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan, without it, there is no Super Saiyan with blue hair.

Aside from that, no. Super Saiyan lost all its value when Super Saiyan 2 was introduced.

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Re: Is SSJ Worth Anything Anymore???

Post by nickzambuto » Fri Dec 04, 2020 3:20 am

Ask Broly. He recently did a lot with just plain old Super Saiyan.

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Re: Is SSJ Worth Anything Anymore???

Post by theherodjl » Fri Dec 04, 2020 12:24 pm

nickzambuto wrote:
Fri Dec 04, 2020 3:20 am
Ask Broly. He recently did a lot with just plain old Super Saiyan.
To be fair, Broly had an additional state that vastly improved his base and then carried over to his SSJ form. I'm sure that if Broly lacked his Ikari power up, ordinary SSJ would've only allowed him enough power to push Base Goku & Vegeta.
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Re: Is SSJ Worth Anything Anymore???

Post by PurestEvil » Fri Dec 04, 2020 12:29 pm

I mean it's good for conserving energy/holding back. Most DB fights involve a gradual increase in displays of power anyways, so yeah.
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Re: Is SSJ Worth Anything Anymore???

Post by nickzambuto » Fri Dec 04, 2020 4:04 pm

theherodjl wrote:
Fri Dec 04, 2020 12:24 pm
nickzambuto wrote:
Fri Dec 04, 2020 3:20 am
Ask Broly. He recently did a lot with just plain old Super Saiyan.
To be fair, Broly had an additional state that vastly improved his base and then carried over to his SSJ form. I'm sure that if Broly lacked his Ikari power up, ordinary SSJ would've only allowed him enough power to push Base Goku & Vegeta.
Well we know Super Saiyan is a bigger powerup than Great Ape. Super Saiyan is 50x and Oozaru is 10x. Ikari Broly was already fighting Blue Goku, so if he went SSJ instead, he would be much stronger than Goku Blue, just not quite as strong as he actually was with the Ikari AND Super Saiyan.

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Re: Is SSJ Worth Anything Anymore???

Post by theherodjl » Fri Dec 04, 2020 8:49 pm

nickzambuto wrote:
Fri Dec 04, 2020 4:04 pm
Well we know Super Saiyan is a bigger powerup than Great Ape. Super Saiyan is 50x and Oozaru is 10x. Ikari Broly was already fighting Blue Goku, so if he went SSJ instead, he would be much stronger than Goku Blue, just not quite as strong as he actually was with the Ikari AND Super Saiyan.
Ikari made Broly SSJB-tier which is far greater than a 10x boost or a 50x boost. If you factor in SDBH, SSJB is about on par with SSJ4 which is something along the lines of a 5000x multiplier(if SSJ4 Goku could take on Oozaru Baby Vegeta). This means Ikari Broly was 100x stronger than SSJ, 50x stronger than SSJ2, and 12.5x stronger than SSJ3.
Ikari was already a much better power up than SSJ and put Broly ahead of any non-fused/non-transformed Saiyan thus far.
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Re: Is SSJ Worth Anything Anymore???

Post by nickzambuto » Sat Dec 05, 2020 2:22 am

theherodjl wrote:
Fri Dec 04, 2020 8:49 pm
nickzambuto wrote:
Fri Dec 04, 2020 4:04 pm
Well we know Super Saiyan is a bigger powerup than Great Ape. Super Saiyan is 50x and Oozaru is 10x. Ikari Broly was already fighting Blue Goku, so if he went SSJ instead, he would be much stronger than Goku Blue, just not quite as strong as he actually was with the Ikari AND Super Saiyan.
Ikari made Broly SSJB-tier which is far greater than a 10x boost or a 50x boost. If you factor in SDBH, SSJB is about on par with SSJ4 which is something along the lines of a 5000x multiplier(if SSJ4 Goku could take on Oozaru Baby Vegeta). This means Ikari Broly was 100x stronger than SSJ, 50x stronger than SSJ2, and 12.5x stronger than SSJ3.
Ikari was already a much better power up than SSJ and put Broly ahead of any non-fused/non-transformed Saiyan thus far.
Well Broly had the whole thing of his power increasing normally on top of tapping into multiple transformations. I assumed the Ikari which was said to be the power of the Oozaru controlled in base form had the same 10x multiplier, and any extra gains can be credited to Broly just naturally increasing every second.

His SSJ transformation was a much bigger deal with all the animation and the green portal and it was what made Goku and Vegeta pretty much give up and make a tactical retreat.

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Re: Is SSJ Worth Anything Anymore???

Post by ZeroNeonix » Sat Dec 05, 2020 3:55 am

Yeah... That's Pandora's Box Toriyama opened when he made Super Saiyan obsolete, and created Super Saiyan 2 (or Ascended Super Saiyan) as a solution for that. What do you do, then, when the next bad guy is even stronger than a Super Saiyan 2? Super Saiyan 3. Each new form makes the older ones obsolete. Now Ultra Instinct is the peak of power, but how long will that last?

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Re: Is SSJ Worth Anything Anymore???

Post by Lord Frieza » Sat Dec 05, 2020 4:46 am

Well no and yes.

The power and transformation creep has been one of the biggest banes to Dragon Ball in the long run, mainly with everyone involved chasing the dragon in regards to the heights of excitement generated in the Frieza and Cell arcs. It's caused a sever bottle neck in how the stories develop and makes all those pervious gains feel so small It's amazing that we live in a time when the 50X power boost of SSJ just looks so underwhelming. The only way it can be relevant these days is when paired with someone so obscenely powerful that it lets them take on SSJB level fighters as with Broly.

That said SSJ will always be the original. It had the proper development, build up and pay off, so in a meta sense it's still the best transformation.

In regards to were things go from here, who knows. In Super I can see small hints of them trying to do something different. The stuff during the Beerus arc and movie, the Goku Black arc and the tournamant of power all had potential to try an revitalise the story but every time the series keeps falling back on old patterns and bad habits. The main thing that needs to change is stop chasing the power creep, it's something they were trying to do in the Moro arc but the same thing happened again, balling back tired trops that reached their limit decades ago. I'm not saying they should change what Dragon Ball is, a fun action manga for teens, and I don't want it to become an edge lords wet dream like Multiverse, but the style of the stories told dose need to change.

Think back to Dragon Ball's early days and how fun it was, strength matter just as much as skill and abilities. Now I'm not saying we go backwards, but if the story could evolve time like the original did, then we should let it do so in Super.

Again Moro at his core is the right idea, a villain who is not more powerful, but has abilities our characters are ill suited to tackle. You've got 12 universe to play with, with all manner of characters, with universe based solely around technology for example, surly if you be creative you can find ways to make battles between being from them and the heroes intreasting without needing everyone having multi-infinite level power ups.

Hell you now what I want more then anything, a normal person villain. No like Barry Kahn, but an intelligent and resourceful ordinary person to be the main villain. Someone who master minds the defeat of Goku by completely waring him down until he's only got the strength of a normal person, is weak, bleeding and now only has his skill as a warrior and his unbreakable spirit to see him through.

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Re: Is SSJ Worth Anything Anymore???

Post by Psajdak » Sat Dec 05, 2020 12:24 pm

You mean like Lex Luthor?

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Re: Is SSJ Worth Anything Anymore???

Post by Lord Frieza » Sun Dec 06, 2020 6:25 pm

Psajdak wrote:
Sat Dec 05, 2020 12:24 pm
You mean like Lex Luthor?
Maybe, at least as in as much Goku is similur to Superman in the original story of the Manga and Episode of Bardock. A mortal being with a great mind but not a state up Lex Luthor clone. In fact I think if you took the goal of Hearts from Heros but applied it to a normal person. A genius mortal who wishes to free the universe from what he views as the tyranny of Zen-oh and the incomitance of the Kaioshin and Hakaishin.

As a plot idea, this person has a way of permanently dealing with Zen-Oh, however there's no way to actually getting to him without getting erased. Except one, the Zen-oh button that Goku has. With it they can summon Zen-Oh right into their trap. So our character begins plotting a way get it.

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Re: Is SSJ Worth Anything Anymore???

Post by Matches Malone » Mon Dec 07, 2020 4:55 am

ZeroNeonix wrote:
Sat Dec 05, 2020 3:55 am
Yeah... That's Pandora's Box Toriyama opened when he made Super Saiyan obsolete, and created Super Saiyan 2 (or Ascended Super Saiyan) as a solution for that. What do you do, then, when the next bad guy is even stronger than a Super Saiyan 2? Super Saiyan 3. Each new form makes the older ones obsolete. Now Ultra Instinct is the peak of power, but how long will that last?
This is why keeping DB going for as long as it has (and will) just doesn't work, you can't keep introducing these many Ssj forms without the story essentially becoming a parody of itself.

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Re: Is SSJ Worth Anything Anymore???

Post by theherodjl » Mon Dec 07, 2020 8:52 am

Matches Malone wrote:
Mon Dec 07, 2020 4:55 am
This is why keeping DB going for as long as it has (and will) just doesn't work, you can't keep introducing these many Ssj forms without the story essentially becoming a parody of itself.
DBS has even referenced TFS's Abridged version of the series a couple times so it is self-aware of parodies, it in itself not being excluded from the list.
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Re: Is SSJ Worth Anything Anymore???

Post by BagetaSama » Fri Dec 11, 2020 12:58 am

theherodjl wrote:
Fri Dec 04, 2020 12:24 pm
nickzambuto wrote:
Fri Dec 04, 2020 3:20 am
Ask Broly. He recently did a lot with just plain old Super Saiyan.
To be fair, Broly had an additional state that vastly improved his base and then carried over to his SSJ form. I'm sure that if Broly lacked his Ikari power up, ordinary SSJ would've only allowed him enough power to push Base Goku & Vegeta.
that seems very strange. For Ikari to be enough to fill the gap between dominating two SSB's and barely being enough to push their Base forms. Ikari is literally just a humanoid Oozaru, which should be 10x. 10x shouldn't even be close to enough to make the difference you're describing.

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Re: Is SSJ Worth Anything Anymore???

Post by theherodjl » Fri Dec 11, 2020 3:25 am

BagetaSama wrote:
Fri Dec 11, 2020 12:58 am
that seems very strange. For Ikari to be enough to fill the gap between dominating two SSB's and barely being enough to push their Base forms. Ikari is literally just a humanoid Oozaru, which should be 10x. 10x shouldn't even be close to enough to make the difference you're describing.
By that logic, SSJ4 is merely a 10x boost from SSJ since it would be just a "humanoid Oozaru" on top of SSJ. However, the opponents that both SSJ4 & Ikari handled were way stronger than a 10x boost so that is not an accurate multiplier.
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Re: Is SSJ Worth Anything Anymore???

Post by TobyS » Fri Dec 11, 2020 12:12 pm

It's stronger then anyone other than like Piccolo, 17 Gohan (whos using latent SS power) Jiren, Toppo and GoD's so no it's still a big deal imo.
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Re: Is SSJ Worth Anything Anymore???

Post by Hugo Boss » Fri Dec 11, 2020 3:35 pm

I think it depends on the context. If the Saiyans are in a situation that they need to handle energy waste with caution, Super Saiyan will be useful against strong opponents. The god forms would be saved for the strongest opponents.

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Re: Is SSJ Worth Anything Anymore???

Post by nickzambuto » Fri Dec 11, 2020 4:23 pm

Psajdak wrote:
Sat Dec 05, 2020 12:24 pm
You mean like Lex Luthor?
What do you mean? Are you saying Lex Luthor is not worth anything/powerful in Superman mythos? You might be underestimating how intelligent he really is.

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