Is SSJ Worth Anything Anymore???

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BagetaSama
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Re: Is SSJ Worth Anything Anymore???

Post by BagetaSama » Fri Dec 11, 2020 7:26 pm

theherodjl wrote:
Fri Dec 11, 2020 3:25 am
BagetaSama wrote:
Fri Dec 11, 2020 12:58 am
that seems very strange. For Ikari to be enough to fill the gap between dominating two SSB's and barely being enough to push their Base forms. Ikari is literally just a humanoid Oozaru, which should be 10x. 10x shouldn't even be close to enough to make the difference you're describing.
By that logic, SSJ4 is merely a 10x boost from SSJ since it would be just a "humanoid Oozaru" on top of SSJ. However, the opponents that both SSJ4 & Ikari handled were way stronger than a 10x boost so that is not an accurate multiplier.
No, SSJ4 is very deliberately it's own thing. It isn't just a form where, the dialogue says "he's accessing the form of an OOzaru!" and then you just move on. And no, Ikari works just fine with a 10x boost. Base Broly goes from being above SSJ Vegeta but below SSG Vegeat, to being above SSG Vegeta. And he continues to grow. It's very similar to SSJ2 Goku->SSG Goku, when he was fighting Caulifla and Kale, he went from having trouble to having an advantage, where in that case if BSSJ Kale got a 10x boost, it would be entirely reasonable for her to gain the upper hand. It's the same thing.

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Re: Is SSJ Worth Anything Anymore???

Post by BWri » Mon Dec 14, 2020 9:14 pm

PurestEvil wrote:
Fri Dec 04, 2020 12:29 pm
I mean it's good for conserving energy/holding back. Most DB fights involve a gradual increase in displays of power anyways, so yeah.
It raises another question about stamina. Do these forms just use less power/stamina or do they rely on a different pool of ki from the god forms? If its the second, then SSJ will always have value even if they master ki control/supression in the god forms.
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Re: Is SSJ Worth Anything Anymore???

Post by Jord » Tue Dec 15, 2020 4:30 am

It looks cool and is iconic. That's it.
There really isn't any reason to not transform to SSJ2 in a fight.

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PerhapsTheOtherOne
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Re: Is SSJ Worth Anything Anymore???

Post by PerhapsTheOtherOne » Tue Dec 15, 2020 2:01 pm

Based on how it's been used lately, it seems like Super Saiyan is a "measuring stick" type of form.

Goku and Vegeta don't seem to like instantly going to their stronger forms and like to test the waters. If their base forms aren't enough, go Super Saiyan for a bit more power and see if their opponents can handle it.

If they can't handle it, the 2 of them don't power up further. If they can, then that means it's time to power up some more into stronger forms.

Funny enough, though, despite people disliking this aspect in the DB franchise, a lot of other anime have technically taken this concept much further and to more ridiculous degrees when contrasted against the comparatively moderate "Super Saiyan -> SSG -> SSB" progression Goku and Vegeta go through.

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Re: Is SSJ Worth Anything Anymore???

Post by Melee_Sovereign » Wed Dec 16, 2020 5:33 am

BWri wrote:
Mon Dec 14, 2020 9:14 pm
PurestEvil wrote:
Fri Dec 04, 2020 12:29 pm
I mean it's good for conserving energy/holding back. Most DB fights involve a gradual increase in displays of power anyways, so yeah.
It raises another question about stamina. Do these forms just use less power/stamina or do they rely on a different pool of ki from the god forms? If its the second, then SSJ will always have value even if they master ki control/supression in the god forms.
I highly doubt it's the second. That would mean they could run out of energy/get tired as a SSJ, but still be perfectly fine and energized as SSB.

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Re: Is SSJ Worth Anything Anymore???

Post by Melee_Sovereign » Wed Dec 16, 2020 5:46 am

Grimlock wrote:
Thu Dec 03, 2020 7:00 pm

Aside from that, no. Super Saiyan lost all its value when Super Saiyan 2 was introduced.
That's not true. Due to Goku inventing a mastered state of Super Saiyan, it's basically a second more powerful base form. Where as Super Saiyan 2 comes with the same emotional compromises as a non-mastered Super Saiyan (we saw how it affected Gohan's mental state). It probably comes with the same or more ki consumption as well.

Super Saiyan 1 is probably the most efficient and energy-conserving saiyan transformation, and that's why it hasn't become obsolete. And Super Saiyan 3 has become obsolete for precisely the opposite reason. Since SSJ can be seen as a sort of second base for, SSJ is basically a free power boost. All the higher forms are not free. They take some sort of physical and/or mental toll.

Super Saiyan 1 is the best form for a battle of endurance. If Goku or Vegeta etc... have to fight a very long battle where they don't need a ton of power, but they need a prolong sustained power-boost of some kind, Super Saiyan 1 would be the best form for that situation. Every other form would just drain faster.

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Re: Is SSJ Worth Anything Anymore???

Post by BWri » Wed Dec 16, 2020 7:44 am

Melee_Sovereign wrote:
Wed Dec 16, 2020 5:33 am
BWri wrote:
Mon Dec 14, 2020 9:14 pm
PurestEvil wrote:
Fri Dec 04, 2020 12:29 pm
I mean it's good for conserving energy/holding back. Most DB fights involve a gradual increase in displays of power anyways, so yeah.
It raises another question about stamina. Do these forms just use less power/stamina or do they rely on a different pool of ki from the god forms? If its the second, then SSJ will always have value even if they master ki control/supression in the god forms.
I highly doubt it's the second. That would mean they could run out of energy/get tired as a SSJ, but still be perfectly fine and energized as SSB.
It's really strange, right? Goku and Vegeta's wacky stamina hijinks in the anime give this sort of thing some sort of legitimacy but I agree.
Big fan of the characters of Dragon Ball, all of them, especially formerly prominent sub-characters. -__-

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Re: Is SSJ Worth Anything Anymore???

Post by Grimlock » Thu Dec 17, 2020 2:21 am

Melee_Sovereign wrote:
Wed Dec 16, 2020 5:46 am
That's not true. Due to Goku inventing a mastered state of Super Saiyan, it's basically a second more powerful base form. Where as Super Saiyan 2 comes with the same emotional compromises as a non-mastered Super Saiyan (we saw how it affected Gohan's mental state). It probably comes with the same or more ki consumption as well.
Yeah, but that only happened once, no one else displayed that. Which leads me to assume that's not a (common) Super Saiyan 2 trait.

And from all usages of the form, it also doesn't seem like it consumes a lot of energy. No one has even commented about it. I think it shouldn't be a problem to make Super Saiyan 2 the standard transformation.

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Re: Is SSJ Worth Anything Anymore???

Post by Melee_Sovereign » Fri Dec 18, 2020 4:01 pm

Grimlock wrote:
Thu Dec 17, 2020 2:21 am

Yeah, but that only happened once, no one else displayed that. Which leads me to assume that's not a (common) Super Saiyan 2 trait.
It happens everytime. It just so happens to be the most dramatic case with Gohan. With Goku and Vegeta, it's basically the same as the times they went unmastered Super Saiyan 1. Their general mannerisms and facial expressions change.

And from all usages of the form, it also doesn't seem like it consumes a lot of energy. No one has even commented about it. I think it shouldn't be a problem to make Super Saiyan 2 the standard transformation.
It most likely consumes the same amount or more as an unmastered Super Saiyan 1, which was never a glaring flaw the way it is for Super Saiyan 3. But it's noticeable enough to be significant. The thing is, Goku, Vegeta, Gohan etc... can stay in mastered Super Saiyan 1 for days. They don't have that type of stamina with Super Saiyan 2.

I imagine if they did master Super Saiyan 2 the same way they do for 1, then SSJ1 would just become even more efficient. Because Super Saiyan 2 still ultimately takes more energy.

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Re: Is SSJ Worth Anything Anymore???

Post by Anonymous Friend » Thu Dec 24, 2020 3:26 pm

nickzambuto wrote:
Fri Dec 11, 2020 4:23 pm
Psajdak wrote:
Sat Dec 05, 2020 12:24 pm
You mean like Lex Luthor?
What do you mean? Are you saying Lex Luthor is not worth anything/powerful in Superman mythos? You might be underestimating how intelligent he really is.
Luthor's an idoit.

I mean, yes, he has a enourmous intellect and is one of the smartest dudes on earth. But he's an idiot.

He should be happy that his nemesis is Superman and not Batman, or any hero that's not afraid to outright murder him. Batman could use his wealth and influence to take him down legally.

Luthor should be Xanatos'ing his way through all these fools but lets his ego and hubris become his own downfall. Tombstone in the Spectacular Spiderman had spidey doing his durty work for him because he knew a hero would do what's right even if it benefits their villains. and even stated as much to Spidey as Spidey was saving his life, and how he could be getting paid for all of his trouble. Tombstone even finance a bunch of supervillains in hopes of keeping Spidey too preoccupied to disrupt much of his other dealings.
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