This is the greatest take on Jiren I have ever read

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This is the greatest take on Jiren I have ever read

Post by DSB » Thu Dec 03, 2020 1:38 am

From Caryslan on reddit.


What has Goku lost? Every time he screws up and lets his family and friends get killed off and his planet destroyed, he has some magical way of fixing it, either with the Dragon Balls or Whis winding back time.

Barring Grandpa Gohan, Goku has never been forced to deal with the loss of anyone close to him outside of a brief period before he can fix everything with the Dragon Balls.

As for Vegeta, yeah he lost a lot more then Goku but he's also managed to carve a nice life for himself with a wife, two children, and a comfortable life on Earth. He's even found another group of Saiyans to help and kinda replace the ones that he lost in Universe 7.

Plus, like Goku, Vegeta never faces any long-term consequences for his actions since once again, the Dragon Balls magically fix everything.

You make fun of Jiren and act like him losing his parents and master is something he should just get over. Well, aside from the fact that he lost both at a young age, he also lost his village, and many of his fellow students to the same monster and the surviving students refused to help Jiren.

Oh, and he lives in a Universe where there aren't two sets of magic orbs that can fix everything.

Unlike Goku who has never been forced to deal with real loss, Jiren has been forced to deal with the memories of his failure and how he was too weak to protect those he cared about. Also unlike Goku who seems to have tons of friends who are loyal to him, Jiren had to deal with his brothers turning their back on him after their master's death and was unable to form bonds with people like Toppo as a result.

But you're right, Jiren's a whiny bitch because he can't get over the fact that he lost everything and had to live with that guilt that he was too weak to protect everyone he cared about, and deep down fears it someday happening again.

He should be more like Goku who has Dragon Balls that can revive people who get killed off, gods all the way up to Angels who are on speed dial, a button that calls Grand Zeno whenever he wants, magic orbs or outside help that bails him out when he makes a mess of things and the fact that outside of Grandpa Gohan, he has never had to deal with real loss or the real consequences of his failures since something always happens that allows him to fix everything that goes wrong.

"Majin Buu killed my family and friends, as well as the rest of Earth's population, and blew up the planet for good measure! Thank Kami that Namek has its own set of Dragon Balls!"

Yeah, Jiren should get over his problems and be more like Goku, huh?
My own thoughts: Jiren is a far better character than Moro. Moro is nothing but a goat magician who for some reason feeds on planets and strong guys. He has no ambition, no interest to train and no endgoal. He doesn't even say why he eats the creation of the gods, he just does.

Moro is a terrible character, probably the worst since buu.

But for some reason Jiren is said to be the bad character because it was poorly shown on the anime and not spoonfed to you guys.

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Re: This is the greatest take on Jiren I have ever read

Post by Polyphase Avatron » Thu Dec 03, 2020 12:31 pm

If Jiren really cared so much about reviving his master, he would have gone full power from the start and wiped out every other team in the tournament instead of giving them so many chances.
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Re: This is the greatest take on Jiren I have ever read

Post by nickzambuto » Thu Dec 03, 2020 4:28 pm

Polyphase Avatron wrote:
Thu Dec 03, 2020 12:31 pm
If Jiren really cared so much about reviving his master, he would have gone full power from the start and wiped out every other team in the tournament instead of giving them so many chances.
This happened many decades ago so he probably isn't trying to use the wish to revive his master. If he won he probably would have did the same thing 17 did and wished all the universes back.

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Re: This is the greatest take on Jiren I have ever read

Post by PurestEvil » Fri Dec 04, 2020 11:28 am

Just because a villain is more "complex", it does not make them better.
Jiren may have been good in concept, but his characterization was utterly botched, so instead of being a sympathetic character, he came off simply as a boring walking-talking power level for Goku to beat who we are FORCED to feel sorry for.
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Re: This is the greatest take on Jiren I have ever read

Post by VegettoEX » Fri Dec 04, 2020 11:49 am

The thing about Jiren (and the take presented here) is that all of that can be true, I can agree with the decision to go in that direction with that character, I can agree that those were correct motivations to set Goku up against...

... but ultimately still find it uninteresting.

And that just means that, for me, it was an worthwhile but failed narrative experiment. That's OK. Not everything's a win. I don't have to like everything, and I don't have to agree with people that themselves DID find it interesting.

For me, Toriyama villains become "iconic" not because of their goals, but usually in spite of them (or in some cases, where goals don't even exist in the first place!). The villains that I love are the ones that go through behavioral changes (think Freeza's degeneration from faux-polite into a screaming baby) and that create unique, memorable, charming dialog interactions between the cast members.

Toriyama's not good at writing direct "lore"; in fact, he's kind of painfully awful at it. He's great at indirectly CREATING lore in the world around him, and great at not focusing on it but instead properly using it as window-dressing to instead focus on the characters.

And that's why I like the Galactic Patrol Prisoner arc as a whole and Moro as a character, even if the underlying motivations are effectively non-existent. That may sound strange since the arc also seems incredibly invested in exploring lore about the past of the Galactic Patrol, the Kaioshin, god power, etc... but for me, it all still works and comes together with character moments that I love.

I think my favorite character moment involving Jiren had little-to-nothing to do with Jiren, and literally nothing to do with Goku: it was Hit's "I'm doing my job" moment. Beyond that, Jiren didn't do a whole lot for me of creating those fun character interaction moments. I'm sure there were more, but they don't come to mind.

And that's why we can agree to disagree!
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Re: This is the greatest take on Jiren I have ever read

Post by PerhapsTheOtherOne » Sat Dec 05, 2020 1:19 pm

I always liked Jiren more for the contrast he had in terms of how his power was presented compared to previous villains.

He was obsessed with being strong, much like certain sects of the franchise's fans. But much like fans obsessed with strength above all else, it leaves him hollow and unable to see what really matters, like the bonds between people and he quirky characters and personalities at play.

He's so overwhelmingly strong that it takes a literal divine power that surpasses even the some of the top gods to truly eclipse him, but ultimately that strength is shown to fail where he needs it to succeed most. I see that as the series showing how power levels and the obsession with them isn't as important as the themes and characters themselves.

But I admit, that's more on me and is a particularly niche and unpopular take overall.

Jiren is strong for the sake of being strong and ensuring he's not weak, but that ironically serves to weaken him by the end of it. Goku shows that it's okay to be strong, so long as it's not to the detriment of yourself and others.

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Re: This is the greatest take on Jiren I have ever read

Post by DevilKing99 » Sat Dec 05, 2020 7:02 pm

Jiren is going to be around forever and is the face of U11 an entire universe that's going to be right behind U6 which will be right behind U7 in the future.

Moro is irrelevant to even people of U7, Beerus, Whis, Freeza, Broly, and Kaioshin didn't even care about him or he they. Not to mention he has no "allies" at all, I wouldn't even call those henchman characters, none of them had any character at all just like their boss Moro at all.

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Re: This is the greatest take on Jiren I have ever read

Post by SupremeKai25 » Sat Dec 05, 2020 7:09 pm

This character analysis on Reddit really puts into perspective just how many plot MacGuffins the protagonists have...

- One set of Dragon Balls on their home planet, the Earth;
- One set of Dragon Balls on a planet in their home universe, Namek;
- One set of Dragon Balls partially located in their home universe, the Seventh Universe;
- Beerus, their friend, is a Destroyer who can erase anyone from existence (provided that they are not immortal);
- Whis, another friend, is an Angel who can rewind time and undo anything terrible that happened;
- Zeno, yet another friend, is literally the King of All, who can be summoned by a convenient button that he gave to Goku.

Like, at this point, if I were a villain in the DBverse I wouldn't even bother with the Seventh universe. I'd go for a useless shithole no one cares about like the Fourth or Ninth universe.
They take what they want by savagery and force. Their so-called society is based on nothing else. They possess neither justice nor order... They were gifted with life, brains capable of wisdom, yet they waste them completely. Should these gifts not be taken back?

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Re: This is the greatest take on Jiren I have ever read

Post by ankokudaishogun » Sat Dec 05, 2020 10:10 pm

Polyphase Avatron wrote:
Thu Dec 03, 2020 12:31 pm
If Jiren really cared so much about reviving his master
that's MANGA Jiren

Which is a completely different character with a wildly different backstory.
We never learned Anime Jiren's wish, which is probably for the better.

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Re: This is the greatest take on Jiren I have ever read

Post by Polyphase Avatron » Sat Dec 05, 2020 10:14 pm

ankokudaishogun wrote:
Sat Dec 05, 2020 10:10 pm
Polyphase Avatron wrote:
Thu Dec 03, 2020 12:31 pm
If Jiren really cared so much about reviving his master
that's MANGA Jiren

Which is a completely different character with a wildly different backstory.
We never learned Anime Jiren's wish, which is probably for the better.
In both versions he didn't really try to win from the beginning though.
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Re: This is the greatest take on Jiren I have ever read

Post by PurestEvil » Mon Dec 07, 2020 11:17 am

SupremeKai25 wrote:
Sat Dec 05, 2020 7:09 pm
This character analysis on Reddit really puts into perspective just how many plot MacGuffins the protagonists have...

- One set of Dragon Balls on their home planet, the Earth;
- One set of Dragon Balls on a planet in their home universe, Namek;
- One set of Dragon Balls partially located in their home universe, the Seventh Universe;
- Beerus, their friend, is a Destroyer who can erase anyone from existence (provided that they are not immortal);
- Whis, another friend, is an Angel who can rewind time and undo anything terrible that happened;
- Zeno, yet another friend, is literally the King of All, who can be summoned by a convenient button that he gave to Goku.

Like, at this point, if I were a villain in the DBverse I wouldn't even bother with the Seventh universe. I'd go for a useless shithole no one cares about like the Fourth or Ninth universe.
I would not call Beerus, Whis, or Zeno "plot MacGuffins" in this context. For your argument's sake, they are more like "emergency switches"
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Re: This is the greatest take on Jiren I have ever read

Post by DBPirate » Mon Dec 07, 2020 12:27 pm

PerhapsTheOtherOne wrote:
Sat Dec 05, 2020 1:19 pm
I always liked Jiren more for the contrast he had in terms of how his power was presented compared to previous villains.

He was obsessed with being strong, much like certain sects of the franchise's fans. But much like fans obsessed with strength above all else, it leaves him hollow and unable to see what really matters, like the bonds between people and he quirky characters and personalities at play.

He's so overwhelmingly strong that it takes a literal divine power that surpasses even the some of the top gods to truly eclipse him, but ultimately that strength is shown to fail where he needs it to succeed most. I see that as the series showing how power levels and the obsession with them isn't as important as the themes and characters themselves.

But I admit, that's more on me and is a particularly niche and unpopular take overall.

Jiren is strong for the sake of being strong and ensuring he's not weak, but that ironically serves to weaken him by the end of it. Goku shows that it's okay to be strong, so long as it's not to the detriment of yourself and others.
I think this is a great analysis of the character.

Personally, I never really got the issue with Jiren. There is a tendency for fans to say that characters like him have no personality and are boring, simply because he's silent most of the time. I certainly found him to be more interesting and a better villain than Super Buu and Kid Buu.
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Re: This is the greatest take on Jiren I have ever read

Post by Cipher » Thu Dec 10, 2020 10:08 am

Polyphase Avatron wrote:
Thu Dec 03, 2020 12:31 pm
If Jiren really cared so much about reviving his master, he would have gone full power from the start and wiped out every other team in the tournament instead of giving them so many chances.
He explains this though. One of his master's core teachings was to always act as if his life is on the line in battle, and to not take winning for granted.

Consequently, he plays the ToP safe and waits until he's surveyed the situation at the end before exerting more effort. If he went all out in the beginning, if there were any fighters on his level who remained after he'd expended a good chunk of his energy, no matter how slim that chance may be, he'd lose. That's the mistake Freeza goads Frost into making.

Jiren's characterization in the manga is quite consistent as someone who is comically powerful, but remains reserved about that fact and consciously avoids becoming overconfident in it. (Until his sore spots are prodded in the final few chapters. This is also not to say he isn't appropriately confident in it. He's blunt about it when characters stand no chance against him, but isn't taking any unnecessary risks.)

I realize this is not the version of Jiren whom this thread was about. The quoted comment itself applied solely to manga Jiren, but sorry if I've taken the thread a bit afield by responding to it.

Anyway, there's a lot to be said for both versions, though I certainly prefer the consistency of the manga's take on both a character level and in terms of what he principally exists to do in providing a wall for and foil to Goku. I like what we get of the anime version in the last few episodes of the arc, but I wish that version felt a bit more like it tracked with what came prior.

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Re: This is the greatest take on Jiren I have ever read

Post by Kataphrut » Thu Dec 10, 2020 5:01 pm

He's a better character than he's given credit for. With the anime version you can tell they were thrown off their game by Toriyama's change and took way too long to figure out what they were doing with him. The manga version was more consistently characterised, though I think it missed out by not including Jiren's best moment in the show, which was when he attacked the stands. That was where it all came together for me.

Either way, he works well as a villain in the broad strokes. I'd say the difference between Jiren and Moro for me is while Moro had some interesting quirks, now that his arc is over I don't care to ever see him again. Whereas I would enjoy it if Jiren came back.

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Re: This is the greatest take on Jiren I have ever read

Post by BagetaSama » Thu Dec 10, 2020 6:06 pm

ankokudaishogun wrote:
Sat Dec 05, 2020 10:10 pm
Polyphase Avatron wrote:
Thu Dec 03, 2020 12:31 pm
If Jiren really cared so much about reviving his master
that's MANGA Jiren

Which is a completely different character with a wildly different backstory.
We never learned Anime Jiren's wish, which is probably for the better.
I mean, I think in the anime it was heavily implied that he wanted to revive his master. He clearly gave a fuck about his master, and his entire character is based on his distrust for people after he tried to avenge his master with his other students, but they all bailed and betrayed him.(It has absolutely nothing to do with his parents dying, that's simply the reason that he was raised by his marital arts master. The narrative that he's a batman clone completely misunderstands the character.)

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Re: This is the greatest take on Jiren I have ever read

Post by Cipher » Thu Dec 10, 2020 11:34 pm

I think it's enough simply to understand that anime Jiren's wish had something to do with attempting to "fix" the events of his past, in whatever form that might take.

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Re: This is the greatest take on Jiren I have ever read

Post by ankokudaishogun » Fri Dec 11, 2020 12:12 pm

BagetaSama wrote:
Thu Dec 10, 2020 6:06 pm
ankokudaishogun wrote:
Sat Dec 05, 2020 10:10 pm
Polyphase Avatron wrote:
Thu Dec 03, 2020 12:31 pm
If Jiren really cared so much about reviving his master
that's MANGA Jiren

Which is a completely different character with a wildly different backstory.
We never learned Anime Jiren's wish, which is probably for the better.
I mean, I think in the anime it was heavily implied that he wanted to revive his master.
His parents would have made more sense than his master for anime Jiren, if anything. Both, more likely.
He clearly gave a fuck about his master, and his entire character is based on his distrust for people after he tried to avenge his master with his other students, but they all bailed and betrayed him.(It has absolutely nothing to do with his parents dying, that's simply the reason that he was raised by his marital arts master. The narrative that he's a batman clone completely misunderstands the character.)
You misremember.
Anime timeline(Manga Jiren timeline, for comparison, at the bottom of the post) is:
  1. Parents dies
  2. Get Master & friends
  3. Master and some friend die, other friends bail out
  4. Get strong by himself
  5. Pride Troopers form around him
  6. Get stronger by himself
Anime Jiren is Batman as much as Goku is Superman. The parallels work wonderfully.

So, yeah. He cared about his master and his parents and his friends.
It's quite arguable he wouldn't have resurrected them though: Manga Jiren just didn't understand teamwork, Anime Jiren was hurt\traumatized by his losses and getting his dear ones back would have meant risking losing them again.
I find unlikely he'd risk suffering again

Manga Jiren timeline, for comparison
  1. Be strong\talented
  2. Get Master
  3. Master brings you in the Pride Troopers to teach you teamwork
  4. Master dies
  5. Get stronger without teamwork
so, yeah. Completely different characters.

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Re: This is the greatest take on Jiren I have ever read

Post by BagetaSama » Fri Dec 11, 2020 8:06 pm

ankokudaishogun wrote:
Fri Dec 11, 2020 12:12 pm
You misremember.
Anime timeline(Manga Jiren timeline, for comparison, at the bottom of the post) is:
Parents dies
Get Master & friends
Master and some friend die, other friends bail out
Get strong by himself
Pride Troopers form around him
Get stronger by himself
Anime Jiren is Batman as much as Goku is Superman. The parallels work wonderfully.
No, I don't misremember, considering what you describe is exactly what I described. His entire character is built around your 3rd bullet point, that he wanted to avenge his Master, but he gets betrayed by his friends/other students who betray him. This, what he considers an obviously traumatic event, is the reason why he doesn't trust people, because of what his friends/fellow pupils did, he feels they betrayed him and he trusted them. Now he doesn't trust others, and he explicitly only trusts his own strength, that's the only thing that he feels he can depend on. This has nothing to do with his parents dying, the parents dying literally is only there to give his master an excuse to be raising him and teaching him. Given that his characterization has little to nothing to do with his parents dying, and everything to do with the way his fellow pupils under his master reacted, betraying him, rather than avenging the master, Jiren's character in the anime is NOTHING whatsoever like Batman.

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Re: This is the greatest take on Jiren I have ever read

Post by ankokudaishogun » Sun Dec 13, 2020 5:44 pm

BagetaSama wrote:
Fri Dec 11, 2020 8:06 pm
His entire character is built around your 3rd bullet point, that he wanted to avenge his Master, but he gets betrayed by his friends/other students who betray him.
Unless I misremember, which is possible, his master dies at the same time as some of his friends and when the others leave him.

the parents dying literally is only there to give his master an excuse to be raising him and teaching him
I disagree.
They were his first loss and, most important, we don't know the actual relationship between Jiren and his Anime Master.
Unlike the manga, where he's an important person for Jiren, there is no special focus on Jiren's Master in the anime.

Not more than on Jiren's Early Friends(in the anime they get pretty much the same exposure as Jiren's Master) but nobody ever mention them.

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Re: This is the greatest take on Jiren I have ever read

Post by Jord » Tue Dec 15, 2020 4:28 am

Jiren is just boring. Yes he had a tragic past but still...he's boring. Doesn't show any personality or charisma and love them or hate them, personality is what makes all of the DB villains shine. I'm not the biggest super fan but that is more due to storytelling. That being said, villains like Zamasu, Champa, Beerus, the U7 Saiyans all have a ton of personality.

Jiren on the other hand...is boring. He has the same back story as Batman but none of the personality. His 'stoic warrior' gimmick kinda reminds me of Tenshinhan actually but even Tenshinhan has a lot more personality than him and that says a lot.

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