Who is stronger, (Ultimate) Gohan or SSJ 3 Goku?

Humpski · Post by **Humpski** » Thu Dec 07, 2006 8:29 am

I've been on the gamefaqs boards for the Sparking Neo game for a while now and every day or so a new topic like this comes up and everyone gets mad at eachother arguing about it. So I thought I'd come to the experts.

Is there any way to tell who's stronger?
Personally I always thought it was Gohan. Maybe I'm wrong.

Thanks

Conan the SSJ · Post by **Conan the SSJ** » Thu Dec 07, 2006 8:56 am

Well, first I must say I'm speaking for the anime canon overall, and also from my own point of view. It's very hard to say whom is stronger between SSJ3 Goku and Ultimate Gohan. For one thing, Goku directly confessed to Piccolo that he didn't go all out in his battle with fat Buu simply because he knew this day was his only chance to teach Goten and Trunks the Fusion, which after Goku departed for Other World, seemed like the Earth's only hope against future threats. When asked by East Kaioshin if SSJ3 Gotenks was stronger, Goku didn't directly reply to the question, leaving us the thought that his best may be better than Gotenks. Now when it comes down to Ultimate Gohan, Goku was definitely surprised when Gohan powered up as his utmost potential had been reached.

Now here's the thing, where the anime canon comes in. Ultimate Gohan was just as powerful as Evil/Super Buu, but not as powerful as Super Buu w/t SSJ3 Gotenks and Piccolo, though he may've been an equal match after Dende healed him. When we see Goku return alive, he outright transforms to SSJ3 to stall Super Buu so Gohan could find his potara earring, it's presumed Goku didn't go 100%, simply because he went SSJ3 in the spur of the moment and had no real powering up time (so he may've been at a point of power between when he fought fat Buu and SSJ3 Gotenks, as he could barely hold a match to Super Buu).

Now comes when Kid Buu's shown up, Earth's been destroyed, the battle for the universe takes place on the Kaioshin world. Before the battle, Kabitoshin directly says (in both dub and Japanese version) that Kid Buu is "the most powerful" form, directly implying he's more powerful than any other form in the anime canon. Goku however chose pride over potara and chose to battle Buu in a tag battle with Vegeta. After SSJ3 Goku's second round with Kid Buu is reaching the exhausting point for Goku, Vegeta butts in and tells Goku to just go on and kill Buu; however since Goku wasted precious energy to give Vegeta a crack at Buu, his true 100% of SSJ3 was eventually out of reach (which he clearly says would be enough to take down Buu). This of course ends up with Earth being revived and the Ultimate Spirit Bomb defeating Majin Buu.

Now for the anime canon, in my point of view, we see in DBZ movie 13, where both Ultimate Gohan and SSJ3 Goku battle against Hildegarn, Goku is the one to win. My theory on why this was done was because when Goku powered up to SSJ3, he went right for his 100% he spoke of using against Kid Buu, but never got a chance to. This 100% power being more powerful than SSJ3 Gotenks and even Ultimate Gohan, combined with the power-up attack of the Dragon Fist, was clearly enough to defeat Hildegarn for good. Therefore, in the anime canon from my point of view, SSJ3 Goku at his absolute best/100% maximum is superior to Ultimate Gohan.

Humpski · Post by **Humpski** » Thu Dec 07, 2006 9:13 am

Hmm ok.
I guess that makes sense. (Even without the non-canon movie 13)

Is it the same for Manga canon?

Post by **Kaboom** » Thu Dec 07, 2006 11:45 am

...Welll, that's a touchy subject you've ressurrected here, Humpski (but asking questions is good! Nothing wrong with that, right?), but I'll try to address it using the manga as reference.

First off, lemme just answer the biggest question of the thread with: You're right. Ultimate Gohan is stronger.

...and second, please forgive me for this, but let me use one little stronger/weaker than "chart" to lay out the various Buus in order of raw strength, just for reference. This is based on their fights both with the heroes and eachother.

Fat Buu < Gray Buu < Kid Buu < Super Buu < Super Gotenks Buu < Super Gohan Buu

It's true, We never see Goku at 100% power SSj3 anytime in the series. Using the manga as reference, he was purposely holding back against Fat Buu, only stalling for time against Gotenks Buu, and against Kid Buu, he never got a spare minute to charge up to full power, leading to him eventually losing the hold on the stage. There's also arguments that can be made about difficulty with his using it from being dead in the living world, and vice versa. But either way, it's arguable as to how strong he really is, in both the manga and anime.

However, we do see him worried about Super Buu. After he and Vegeta free Gohan and company from Buu's absorption, Vegeta suggests leaving, but Goku tries to get him to fuse again, since he states "Buu's still stronger than us." So we're lead to assume that Super Buu is still too much for Goku, possibly even at full power SSj3, to handle.

Since Gotenks was just slightly more powerful than Super Buu, this would imply that he's stronger than SSj3 Goku, as well. However, Buu stated to Gohan (after getting the crap beaten out of him) that he had felt Gohan's power building far away. Apparently he had been wanting to test Gohan's power. This probably means that he was stalling and holding back against Gotenks, allowing the fight to drag out long enough for Goten and Trunks to defuse and for Gohan to arrive. This could mean Super Buu's stronger than Gotenks as well, which, in turn, could put Goku at an even or greater level of power than Gotenks. (I personally can't imagine Gotenks being stronger at any form than Goku, but that's just personal preference)

But Gohan smoked him easily.

Also, Kaioshin never said that Kid Buu was the most powerful form. He said that he was a soul-less, merciless, evil-incarnate killing-machine, and thus more dangerous than the others, since he obviously has no problem with just blowing planets up without toying around with people first. In contrast to Super Buu, SSj3 Goku was on at least even grounds with Kid Buu. But he told Vegeta that he'd need a minute to charge (Presumably to 100%) in order to finish Buu off.

Since in comparison, Kid Buu is one level below Super Buu on the chart, it would place Goku somewhere between the two. Gohan was much stronger than Super Buu, but could barely stay alive against Gotenks Buu.

...as for Movie 13, Goku succeeded where Gohan failed because Goku was meant to win by the writers. Also, you could say he won because he used the Dragon Fist, possibly the single most powerful one-person-fueled attack in any of the series, to kill Hildegarn.

Wh00t! Rantacular!

Rocketman · Post by **Rocketman** » Thu Dec 07, 2006 11:53 am

The only hero stronger than Mystic Gohan is Vegetto/Gogeta.

Post by **Kaboom** » Thu Dec 07, 2006 11:58 am

Rocketman wrote:The only hero stronger than Mystic Gohan is Vegetto/Gogeta.

In a nutshell, yup.

SS2 Vegeto · Post by **SS2 Vegeto** » Thu Dec 07, 2006 12:27 pm

Rou Kaioshin's Comments on Power Up

"If you can swing that sword around already, you'll really be the strongest under the heavens by the time I'm done with you!" (in regards to power up ritual)

"Feh. Transforming isn't everything. That super-whatever is just showbiz." (in regards to latent ability and super saiya-jin)

Goku's Responses to Chou Gohan's Power

"Latent power" is hidden power he had inside...right? (continued..) How can that be...? ...How much power did Gohan have hiding...? (Goku's response to Gohan's incomplete power up)

"!! (continued...) You're right...it is amazing...it's insane...! I don't believe it! You haven't changed on the outside...you're not even super saiyan, but...I didn't know this was even possible..." (Goku's response to Gohan's complete power up)

Goku and Vegeta's Comments on Their Abilities in Contrast to Shin Buu

"Wait! He's still stronger than either of us! He'll kill us if we go out like this!! (continued...) You just had to break the potara!" (Goku in regards to Shin Buu's power)

"Now this looks like...it could be trouble...!" (Vegeta on Shin Buu's appearance within his own body)

"I told you to keep the potara on!! This would've been easy if we could combine!! (Goku, after Shin Buu's entry)

Shin Buu in Regards to his Ability in Contrast to Goku and Vegeta

"!...So...you can't combine anymore...hee hee hee...that's nice." (on Goku and Vegeta's inability to fuse)

"You can't do it. You're gonna die." (In response to Goku's statement "...So we have to beat you first...?")

Comments on the Ability of Chibi Buu

"Heh...Heh Heh Heh...look at our little friend!" (Vegeta, in response to Shin Buu's degression into Chibi Buu)

"Yeah! We can take him!" (Goku, in response to Vegeta's statement)

"Buu!! You can blow up this planet if you want!!! But do it AFTER you've fought us!!! (continued...) Heh heh heh...that's better..." (Vegeta, in response to Chibi Buu's initial attempt at destroying the earth)

"You'll destroy the earth!!! Don't you want to fight us?!" (Goku, in response to Chibi Buu's Chikyuu Hokai no Ichigeki)

"...No thanks. We'll do without 'em." (Goku, turning down the potara earings)

"You sure? You might not get your turn." (Goku, in response to Vegeta's remark "I want to see this super saiyan 3 up close...")

"What?!!! He's asleep...?!!! Who does he think I am...?!" (Goku....in response to Chibi Buu sleeping, obviously...

)

"Don't mind me. Finish him off! Build up your chi with Super Saiyan 3, and you should be able to obliterate him!" (Vegeta, on Goku's power as a Super Saiya-jin 3)

"...So Skinny Buu spit him out." (Rou Kaioshin, directly equating Chibi Buu to Skinny Buu)

Basically, the answer is indisputabley Chou Gohan, by an enourmous margin.

Humpski · Post by **Humpski** » Thu Dec 07, 2006 1:01 pm

Thanks guys.
I was sure Gohan was stronger. Glad to know I wasn't wrong.

Hopefully this will quiet the forums at gamefaqs.

Post by **Kaboom** » Thu Dec 07, 2006 1:11 pm

Humpski wrote:Thanks guys.

Hopefully this will quiet the forums at gamefaqs.

Yup. Just link 'em to here, where it's been discussed by, as you put it, folks who know what they're talking about.

Humpski · Post by **Humpski** » Thu Dec 07, 2006 1:18 pm

Damn, it didn't work they are still disputing.

http://boards.gamefaqs.com/gfaqs/genmes ... c=32263869

SS2 Vegeto · Post by **SS2 Vegeto** » Thu Dec 07, 2006 1:23 pm

It won't work. MFG forums have been having this debate with the odd few who contest otherwise, and we've been throwing around the facts for probably three or four years.

All in all, I'd avoid debates like that on forums like Gamefaqs.

EDIT: And, from looking at that thread, most of the people even worth listening to are saying Chou Gohan>>>SSJ3 Goku anyways, so anyone else who contests this is probably just worth ignoring. Gaming sites have a lot of rabid fans on them.

Mr.Piccolo · Post by **Mr.Piccolo** » Thu Dec 07, 2006 1:24 pm

Um, I believe Gohan was the strongest unfused character in the entire trilogy. SSJ3 Goku was all strong and all but he wouldn't have a chance against any Super Buu let alone Gohan. Besides, SSJ3 drains so much ki so all Gohan would need to do is stall Goku. Nobody cares about those stupid debates but since I'm curious: Is there a person by the name of superstar there?
-Rick

Post by **Kaboom** » Thu Dec 07, 2006 1:25 pm

Doesn't look like they're really arguing Goku vs. Gohan anymore. All I see is a bit of misinterpreting of my speculation about Goku and Gotenks.

Humpski · Post by **Humpski** » Thu Dec 07, 2006 1:27 pm

Hmmm...maybe.

SS2 Vegeto · Post by **SS2 Vegeto** » Thu Dec 07, 2006 1:35 pm

In regards to that speculation, however, I can't say it would make sense that Shin Buu was necessarily stalling, as he was quite injured by SSJ3 Gotenks. If anything, I'd have to say he was giving his full effort in order to hold his own until the fusion wore off. As Piccolo stated, he became "desperate". Basically, it's unlikely that what we saw in that fight wasn't everything there was too it.

He lasted until the fusion wore off, fled after clashing with Chou Gohan, then stalled for time until Goten and Trunks could fuse again, and absorbed them when that was possible in order to outdue Gohan.

However, it doesn't really matter...there seems to be much less argument than we've been given the impression, asside from a few odd "rabid" fans that might spur it on none-the-less.

Post by **Kaboom** » Thu Dec 07, 2006 1:41 pm

Meh. Like I said, it was only a little speculation (Though I wouldn't be surprised if the nutcases on GFAQs now run with it).

Maybe I'm just too big a Goku fan to admit to myself that two fused little punks with practically no work behind their power would be stronger than the almighty hero the series had been following. Same kinda goes for Gohan, too ("What do I have to do? Sit still for a few hours and I'll be massively more powerful? Ah, maaan..."), though it's impossible to debate that one...

Humpski · Post by **Humpski** » Thu Dec 07, 2006 1:44 pm

Yeah the people who actively dispute this Gohan and Goku thing didn't seem to end up in my thread. But they create their own....here's an annoying one.

http://boards.gamefaqs.com/gfaqs/genmes ... c=32263263

Mr.Piccolo · Post by **Mr.Piccolo** » Thu Dec 07, 2006 1:46 pm

SSj Kaboom wrote:Meh. Like I said, it was only a little speculation (Though I wouldn't be surprised if the nutcases on GFAQs now run with it).

Maybe I'm just too big a Goku fan to admit to myself that two fused little punks with practically no work behind their power would be stronger than the almighty hero the series had been following. Same kinda goes for Gohan, too ("What do I have to do? Sit still for a few hours and I'll be massively more powerful? Ah, maaan..."), though it's impossible to debate that one...

Almost as if the series was really going to end at an earlier time.

Yes, its hard to believe but Goku was hardly the strongest in the Buu Arc. Gotenks was indeed stronger (not even going SSJ3), imo.
-Rick

Post by **Kaboom** » Thu Dec 07, 2006 1:53 pm

Mr.Piccolo wrote:
SSj Kaboom wrote:Meh. Like I said, it was only a little speculation (Though I wouldn't be surprised if the nutcases on GFAQs now run with it).

Maybe I'm just too big a Goku fan to admit to myself that two fused little punks with practically no work behind their power would be stronger than the almighty hero the series had been following. Same kinda goes for Gohan, too ("What do I have to do? Sit still for a few hours and I'll be massively more powerful? Ah, maaan..."), though it's impossible to debate that one...
Almost as if the series was really going to end at an earlier time. Yes, its hard to believe but Goku was hardly the strongest in the Buu Arc. Gotenks was indeed stronger (not even going SSJ3), imo.
-Rick

Now that last point, my friend, I'm afraid I must contest against. Even after that RoSaT training, SSj1/2 (Hard to tell) Gotenks was still pretty sucky against Super Buu. The only thing that let him "almost sorta" win that fight was the Kamikaze Ghost technique, which is, IMHO, a special, "PL-transcending" move, like the Dragon Fist.

Don't get me wrong, though. I do know SSj3 Gotenks was better than SSj3 Goku; I'm just being stubborn about admitting it.

Rocketman · Post by **Rocketman** » Thu Dec 07, 2006 1:56 pm

SSj Kaboom wrote:Maybe I'm just too big a Goku fan to admit to myself that two fused little punks with practically no work behind their power would be stronger than the almighty hero the series had been following. Same kinda goes for Gohan, too ("What do I have to do? Sit still for a few hours and I'll be massively more powerful? Ah, maaan..."), though it's impossible to debate that one...

Watch out, dude. You'll get the Next Generation fans on your ass.

Kanzenshuu

Who is stronger, (Ultimate) Gohan or SSJ 3 Goku?

Who is stronger, (Ultimate) Gohan or SSJ 3 Goku?

Who is online