Kid Buu's power?

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OWmyDragonBallz
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Re: Kid Buu's power?

Post by OWmyDragonBallz » Sat Apr 17, 2021 4:47 am

I don't see how the manga is against Kid buu being the strongest Buu (it can be argued that it just means above regular Super buu and Buff buu)
First being that them saying South Kaioushin was the strongest was to show how even their best and most powerful fighters fell to Boo.

It’s meant to prop up Majin Boo. There was no statement of an increase in power from Southern Kaioshin, just that he was absorbed. But what reason to believe it didn't reduce his power anyway given that Kid buu is the most evil meaning more evil than Buff buu as well. Yes, z warriors didn't make a difference, but these are literal deities which even Dabura said their energy can't be used to help revive Buu. On top of potara giving out immediately after the barrier drop of Vegetto.
As we have seen with the Majin race. Evil = more power. Evidence with Majin Vegeta, Spopovitch, and the others that got cursed by the Majin spell.
Grey buu received the majority of the power from Fat buu. Why? Because he is the evil dominance of that Buu brought out.

Secondly, when Dai Kaioushin was absorbed that overrode South Kaioushin. Fat Boo took on the physical appearance of Dai Kaioushin.

When Super Boo appears he absorbed Good Boo.

Good Boo is the source of energy. Dai Kaioushin’s presence is still the dominant attribute for good boo. Which means that Super Boo is feeding off Dai Kaioushin and not the south Kaioushin.
So how can Kid buu be inferior to a form that's source of power was predominately feeding off of something that weakened him. Even if Southern Kai somehow made him stronger, Dai kaioushin influence still overrode that enough that it didn't matter. That doesn't mean South kaioshin didn't do anything either, he just didn't make an impact enough to make a difference.
That brings us to the removal of Good buu. Kid buu is unregulated totally from any influence of deity being the Kaioshin influence. Dai Kaioshin was stated to control him.
After removal of Good buu, his power was stated to be increasing with no source of South kaioshin in him anymore. When Kid buu formed, no such increase was stated to go down. Just Goku's response to Vegeta laughing at his size. A mistake that happened with Cell and Final form Frieza in similar fashions with someone there to warn them. In this case, being the Kaioushins.

Shin gives Buus backstory and explains that level of increase was due to the reduction of power from absorption having returned to the way it was before from a heart, being evil itself with no more control of the Kaioushin.
So if the Majin race feeds off evil being more power, hint right there.

As for "most difficult. Most troublesome meaning unpredictable".

Why is Shin so mortified at the prospect of the original Buu returning if Super Buu is that much stronger? They have Gohan and Gotenks right there on top of that. Surely he is considering that with this mentality of fans?

Kaioshin says Kid buu is the most troublesome.
Why does unpredictability and havok for Kid Buu play so much into the reason that Kid Boo is the most troublesome one?

Buuhan could stop any attack that Kid Buu could throw.

And if Super Buu is so much stronger, than unpredictability means Jack.

Do you think Jiren with all of his strength would be worried about Kid Buu being unpredictable?

The guy is stronger than his own GoD.

Never mind the fact that Super Buu is also unpredictable. He just eradicated all life on earth without so much as a second thought and no one saw that coming.

This tiresome narrative always ascribes this trait to mean what Old Kai said when the troublesome statement happened first. So, Old Kai didn’t say he was troublesome because of unpredictability. Old Kai didn’t know he was unpredictable and Shin didn’t say it was due to that reason.

So if the fight happened on earth what is Shin and Old Kai talking about then?

As for Goku's reaction to Super buu, I don't see how that correlates with Kid buu's superiority to Super buu when Goku concluded basically the same thing with him after their fight and admitted he showed off and should've fused.
His response to not fusing before the fight because Buu wasn't merged anymore either just means he wanted it to be fair even if he was stronger than before. Goku again even admitted that he isn't sure if he could do anything but will give it his best shot. That's not "certainty that he can manage Kid buu".
Ultimately this means his saiyan ego overrode his rationale.
Why would the kais demand fusion at all more than they ever did with Super buu if this Buu was that much weaker?
"Unpredictable"? Mental gymnastics at its finest.

Goku never mentions ssj3 inside Buus body either. Goku is reluctant to utilize ssj3.

Yet, when Goku is on the Kaioushin planet (not the living realm) Goku is more willing to go into ssj3.

No one wants to dive deeper than “uh well it’s bcuze Kud Bu iz wekrer”

he explained it to Piccolo about the living realm of ssj3 how it shouldn't be used there. It eats up lots of ki, and he further finds that out with his body as well.
Might that be the reason he wasn't capable of Super buu because he wasn't counting a proper ssj3 utilization.

Or "goku used ssj3 without hesitation for buutenks"

A situation that literally demanded it or otherwise he’d die on the spot. But he never used it to break out of Buu.

And South Kai or Fat Kai never could lift the Z sword. Shin was led to believe that this sword was capable of destroying Buu. How did he come to that conclusion?

If Kid buu was so much weaker than Super buu, than you'd also think that Toriyama would think of something more than these reactions and even "OH, I know, you'll bring Gohan and Gotenks to help us fight" as opposed to Goku thinking Gohan alone can take Buucollo.

The context is both would be needed in the fight and no guarantee that is enough is stated.
The return of Kid buu is a possibility they consider with no thought of the old "Gohan can just one shot him or Gotenks can do it".

It's not Toriyamas writing style. In fact it's the opposite given he often likes the smallest and cutest looking as the strongest and he further acknowledged that with the interviewer with Kid buu being included.
Why would the most decisive battle in the universe be determined over an enemy that Gotenks as a SSJ supposedly can so much as manage?

In short, do I think Gohan and Ssj3 Gotenks are above SSJ3 Goku? Yes, depending on the circumstance of his body and the realm he is in. If SSJ3 Goku was utilized flawlessly, I think he's up there with them. Though it's a bit ambiguous to know exactly where they land together on the scale with Goku.

But with certainty, I can say Kid buu is superior to Super buu and that Kid buu was stronger than Goku Gohan and Gotenks alike.
Again, why would Gokus number one objective in ten years of training prepare for a level of power that so much as Gotenks can supposedly waste?
It's bullshit and these fanons have drove the fanbase nuts over the years and even decades now.

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Re: Kid Buu's power?

Post by Ripper 30 » Sun Apr 18, 2021 7:07 am

People have convinced themselves that Kid Boo for some made up headcanon is weaker than Super boo even though the story itself says otherwise. It's pointless telling DB "experts" anything, this thread is full of hypocrisy, bias and double standards. The moment someone starts speaking about something going against Their narrative, they will stop taking you seriously or lock the thread. As someone who's read the story multiple times, it's more than obvious to me that Kid Boo is written to be a stronger super boo with scenes like Goku asking Vegeta if his ki is getting bigger after they just pulled the source of power from inside of super boo or the Exposition on his Backstory with Kaioshins which ends with Kibito-Kaioshin telling them how he lost power through absorptions.
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Re: Kid Buu's power?

Post by TobyS » Sun Apr 18, 2021 5:13 pm

Ripper 30 wrote: Sun Apr 18, 2021 7:07 am People have convinced themselves that Kid Boo for some made up headcanon is weaker than Super boo even though the story itself says otherwise. It's pointless telling DB "experts" anything, this thread is full of hypocrisy, bias and double standards. The moment someone starts speaking about something going against Their narrative, they will stop taking you seriously or lock the thread. As someone who's read the story multiple times, it's more than obvious to me that Kid Boo is written to be a stronger super boo with scenes like Goku asking Vegeta if his ki is getting bigger after they just pulled the source of power from inside of super boo or the Exposition on his Backstory with Kaioshins which ends with Kibito-Kaioshin telling them how he lost power through absorptions.
Lol “everyone but me are bias hypocrites with double standards, which is totally not a toxic bad faith assumption for me to begin discussing things... Hey why are these threads getting locked when I post” :eh: :lol:

Yes his power goes up and then down. You never explain why Goku was afraid to fight super buu earlier and you have to make vegeta stupid to suddenly be ignoring this monster apparently getting even stronger but just judging him as manageable based on his new small height.

And you have to make Goku look stupid suggesting that the weaker Gohan and Gotenks might help later, and ignore that vegeta doesn't take the opportunity to say it wouldn't work but simply explain his motivation is for earth to help themselves.

It's either Goku wank or just a weird OCD that “no the last villain has to be the strongest” even though Toriyama explicitly says he likes to subvert expectations.
Yamcha almost certainly did not cheat on Bulma:
He was afraid of Women, Bulma was the flirty one.
Yamcha wanted to get married (it was his gonna be his wish)
He suggested they settle down in the Trunks saga.
Alternate future Trunks is not a reliable source.
Toriyama wanted new SSJ Kids and not make new characters.

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Re: Kid Buu's power?

Post by theherodjl » Sun Apr 18, 2021 10:59 pm

Ripper 30 wrote: Sun Apr 18, 2021 7:07 amPeople have convinced themselves that Kid Boo for some made up headcanon is weaker than Super boo even though the story itself says otherwise. It's pointless telling DB "experts" anything, this thread is full of hypocrisy, bias and double standards. The moment someone starts speaking about something going against Their narrative, they will stop taking you seriously or lock the thread. As someone who's read the story multiple times, it's more than obvious to me that Kid Boo is written to be a stronger super boo with scenes like Goku asking Vegeta if his ki is getting bigger after they just pulled the source of power from inside of super boo or the Exposition on his Backstory with Kaioshins which ends with Kibito-Kaioshin telling them how he lost power through absorptions.
I wasn't aware that a topic discussing the power levels of magical gum-demons in a shonen manga requires the seriousness & protocol of a Harvard debate tournament. Here, I thought that we were all just having fun on the internet. I didn't realize that Dragonball was actually an academic field of study...
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Re: Kid Buu's power?

Post by Lionel » Sun Apr 18, 2021 11:26 pm

It's a troubling debate because on one hand you have various comments, many of them from supplementary sources it looks like, claiming that Kid Buu is most powerful incarnation of Buu. On the other hand, we've had various quotations inside the manga attesting to Gohan being his father's superior when he puts his mind to it -- that's not using any of the other arguments people make with speculating on Goku's state of mind against Super Buu or his eagerness to fuse against Buuhan.

Elder Kaioshin's ability should have raised Gohan pas the point of surpassing his father thanks to his latent potential and widened the disparity to the point of one eclipsing the other. In the order of priorities I feel like we should hold these internal manga references higher than what guides or the anime state. It's by extension of this that I at least draw the conclusion of Super Buu and his absorptive counterparts being stronger than Kid as they either were within the same broadly defined league as Gohan or greater.

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Re: Kid Buu's power?

Post by TobyS » Mon Apr 19, 2021 10:21 am

Lionel wrote: Sun Apr 18, 2021 11:26 pm It's a troubling debate because on one hand you have various comments, many of them from supplementary sources it looks like, claiming that Kid Buu is most powerful incarnation of Buu. On the other hand, we've had various quotations inside the manga attesting to Gohan being his father's superior when he puts his mind to it -- that's not using any of the other arguments people make with speculating on Goku's state of mind against Super Buu or his eagerness to fuse against Buuhan.

Elder Kaioshin's ability should have raised Gohan pas the point of surpassing his father thanks to his latent potential and widened the disparity to the point of one eclipsing the other. In the order of priorities I feel like we should hold these internal manga references higher than what guides or the anime state. It's by extension of this that I at least draw the conclusion of Super Buu and his absorptive counterparts being stronger than Kid as they either were within the same broadly defined league as Gohan or greater.
That's a really good and simple point.
Gohan has more potential than Goku. Even the new Goku wanking super reiterates this twice!
The same guidebooks say SS3 draws out a saiyans power to it's very limits while elder kaioshins magic draws the persons power out beyond their limits.
Ergo Gohan IS stronger.
If a form of buu beats Gohan in that state then that form of buu has to also be stronger than Goku or any Buu Goku fights well against.

Let alone feeling the need to permanently fuse with his own son or enemy or pissing himself at fighting defused super buu etc etc etc.
Yamcha almost certainly did not cheat on Bulma:
He was afraid of Women, Bulma was the flirty one.
Yamcha wanted to get married (it was his gonna be his wish)
He suggested they settle down in the Trunks saga.
Alternate future Trunks is not a reliable source.
Toriyama wanted new SSJ Kids and not make new characters.

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Re: Kid Buu's power?

Post by Ripper 30 » Tue Apr 20, 2021 5:49 am

TobyS wrote: Mon Apr 19, 2021 10:21 am
Lionel wrote: Sun Apr 18, 2021 11:26 pm It's a troubling debate because on one hand you have various comments, many of them from supplementary sources it looks like, claiming that Kid Buu is most powerful incarnation of Buu. On the other hand, we've had various quotations inside the manga attesting to Gohan being his father's superior when he puts his mind to it -- that's not using any of the other arguments people make with speculating on Goku's state of mind against Super Buu or his eagerness to fuse against Buuhan.

Elder Kaioshin's ability should have raised Gohan pas the point of surpassing his father thanks to his latent potential and widened the disparity to the point of one eclipsing the other. In the order of priorities I feel like we should hold these internal manga references higher than what guides or the anime state. It's by extension of this that I at least draw the conclusion of Super Buu and his absorptive counterparts being stronger than Kid as they either were within the same broadly defined league as Gohan or greater.
That's a really good and simple point.
Gohan has more potential than Goku. Even the new Goku wanking super reiterates this twice!
The same guidebooks say SS3 draws out a saiyans power to it's very limits while elder kaioshins magic draws the persons power out beyond their limits.
Ergo Gohan IS stronger.
If a form of buu beats Gohan in that state then that form of buu has to also be stronger than Goku or any Buu Goku fights well against.

Let alone feeling the need to permanently fuse with his own son or enemy or pissing himself at fighting defused super buu etc etc etc.
Gohan's limit was already reached with ssj2, old Kaioshin gave him boost to become ssj3 tier. Goku was doing somewhat good against kid boo who's stronger than super boo hence Goku's stronger. You literally have no proof from Manga where a character says kid boo is weaker super boo.
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Re: Kid Buu's power?

Post by Nosferatu93 » Sat Apr 24, 2021 9:19 pm

Thought creator said majin boo has bottomless power. Its a magical creature. There is no logic to apply. Only that by toriyamas design the smaller the stronger. Kid boo is the strongest unfused boo. That boy would throw back the genki dama if thats not proof enough then i dont know. It also just played with ssj3 it never fighted seriously if it had goku would be toast. But as said theres no logic to apply that thing blows planets up and doesnt care if blowing himself up too. Majin boo is no regular villain that was its idea in original dragonball style.

Its all a big gag i mean just watch fat boos design...:-) its a demon with genie powers that is like a child. Top kek toriyama style with no editor influence(who are responsible for almost all cyborgs and cells and what not) he wanted gero/20 as main villain......
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Re: Kid Buu's power?

Post by MasenkoHA » Sun Apr 25, 2021 10:18 am

Goku was able to fight on pretty even ground with Pure Boo as Super Saiyan 3. He wouldn’t even fathom doing that against Super Buu fused with Gotenks and later Gohan

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Re: Kid Buu's power?

Post by Kaboom » Sun Apr 25, 2021 12:21 pm

When one form of an enemy is described as "his strength is too much, he'll kill us for sure," and then his subsequent form is described as "yeah, we can take him" and "I can handle him if I use full power," then that means he got weaker.
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Re: Kid Buu's power?

Post by Mad Swami » Sun Apr 25, 2021 12:51 pm

Kid Buu is really only stronger than the Fat Buu that fought Goku. Every other version of Buu takes him in all honesty. Buucolo is much stronger imo.

Good Buu<Evil Buu<Fat Buu<Kid Buu<Super Buu<Buucolo<Buutenks<Buuhan

Good Buu and Evil Buu are two splits of the Fat Buu who was weaker than SSJ3 Goku. The same SSJ3 Goku who was no threat to any other Buu aside from Kid Buu. Kid Buu fight he (Goku) was going all out thus showing Kid Buu>Fat Buu.

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Re: Kid Buu's power?

Post by Ripper 30 » Fri Apr 30, 2021 11:14 am

Kaboom wrote: Sun Apr 25, 2021 12:21 pm When one form of an enemy is described as "his strength is too much, he'll kill us for sure," and then his subsequent form is described as "yeah, we can take him" and "I can handle him if I use full power," then that means he got weaker.
Like always you are gonna ignore Goku's line about Ssj3 not being something which should be used in place where time exists like living realm. You obviously are to biased to notice that Goku wasn't even serious when he said that Super Boo will kill him, he only said that to make Vegeta consider fusing with him. Also, props for making up lies Kaboom, he never said anything like "We can take him" but "This way we might be able to manage something", notice how "manage something" is used to refer to something which they aren't sure of. Event later when they are ready to face Kid Boo, Goku said "I don't know if we can beat him but let's do our best". Also he said nothing like "I can handle him with full power" but more like "If I have to wipe him, I need to gather ki for a minute" and that's called desperation like Goku wanting to make genki dama against freeza as last resort. It's hilarious that you make all these stretches yet can't find any panel where it states he got weaker even though Toriyama Clearly has a habit of making it clear when ki fluctuations happen like when boohan's ki went down to base level or when Boo's ki was increasing after Kaioshin was cut off. Anyway keep believing your headcanons.
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Re: Kid Buu's power?

Post by ZombieVito » Fri Apr 30, 2021 6:23 pm

TheSaiyanGod wrote: Fri Feb 26, 2021 5:49 pm
Jack Bz wrote: Wed Feb 24, 2021 4:13 pm In the original manga read on its own it's hard to interpret Kid Buu as being the strongest. But now? I definitely think that in the decades since then a lot of stuff has been retconned.

Firstly: Goku in the anime itself outright states that Kid Buu is on another level compared to previous boos. Not "the most dangerous" or another vague wording. There is also extra recent promotional material (I can't recall any specifics, sorry) that said he was the strongest of all boos, however confusing it may be to have him above Buuhan.

There's also the fact that in both continuations of dragon ball (GT & Super), Goku and Vegeta have started and remained as clearly the 2 strongest fighters out of the cast, despite Vegeta being left in the dust from the very beginning of the boo arc in terms of his power.

To me, it definitely seems that because the original series ended with Goku, Vegeta and Kid Buu being the main players, whatever powers in charge have retconned with the new content that they were the 3 strongest by the end of the story, for the sake of cohesion.
Nah, this is just TOEi's bullshit. The anime completely contradicts itself because it kept the lines of the original manga (in which it makes clear the position of each Boo, since Goku says that neither he and Vegeta together would defeat Super Boo, however he believes he is capable of destroying Kid Boo with the full power), and at the same time added exclusive lines from the anime that imply that Kid Boo was the most powerful

The powerscaling at the end Boo saga in the anime is a mess, and they had the entire manga saga to build on. SSJ3 Goku being able to face Boo Gotenks (when he admits to not being able to beat even the regular Super Boo with the help of Vegeta), statements about Kid Boo being the strongest, Goku / Vegeta defeating Ultimate Gohan and Gotenks inside the body of Boo ...and so on
There's really nothing wrong with Goku vs Bootenks. It's clear as day Goku is outmatched in the fight. You could also say Bootenks wasn't going serious with him.

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Re: Kid Buu's power?

Post by theherodjl » Fri Apr 30, 2021 8:18 pm

Ripper 30 wrote: Fri Apr 30, 2021 11:14 am
Kaboom wrote: Sun Apr 25, 2021 12:21 pm When one form of an enemy is described as "his strength is too much, he'll kill us for sure," and then his subsequent form is described as "yeah, we can take him" and "I can handle him if I use full power," then that means he got weaker.
Like always you are gonna ignore Goku's line about Ssj3 not being something which should be used in place where time exists like living realm. You obviously are to biased to notice that Goku wasn't even serious when he said that Super Boo will kill him, he only said that to make Vegeta consider fusing with him. Also, props for making up lies Kaboom, he never said anything like "We can take him" but "This way we might be able to manage something", notice how "manage something" is used to refer to something which they aren't sure of. Event later when they are ready to face Kid Boo, Goku said "I don't know if we can beat him but let's do our best". Also he said nothing like "I can handle him with full power" but more like "If I have to wipe him, I need to gather ki for a minute" and that's called desperation like Goku wanting to make genki dama against freeza as last resort. It's hilarious that you make all these stretches yet can't find any panel where it states he got weaker even though Toriyama Clearly has a habit of making it clear when ki fluctuations happen like when boohan's ki went down to base level or when Boo's ki was increasing after Kaioshin was cut off. Anyway keep believing your headcanons.
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