I don't understand why people keep believing Nappa's power-level is 4,000

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I don't understand why people keep believing Nappa's power-level is 4,000

Post by Yasai9001 » Mon Mar 22, 2021 10:43 am

I used to be one of the people who believed that Nappa's full power was 4,000 until I started to get heavy into observing everything in the anime and especially in the Manga.

So in all reality, he's exactly on par with Goku. I have debated a multitude of people counting back years ago and even had a debate on this subject a few days ago with a willfully ignorant fan of the Dragon Ball Community (we have many of those). And the only reason I continue to entertain this topic as well as various others is because with all the misinformation out there on Dragon Ball, I want to be able to spread the reality of everything that I know to be true.

So, here are my points and if you disagree, counter them point by point.

First off, not soon after Goku landed, he was able to easily evade Nappa's greeting punch despite being suppressed at 5,000. This is the reason many people believe Nappa to be at 4,000, as well as because he was shocked at the fact and even a little worried that such a high battle power was coming, but then again, so was Vegeta, who expressed urgency on Nappa taking care of Krillin and Gohan because they couldn't afford them all to team up.

The thing is that we know Goku is capable of increasing his power in super quick bursts to where his power can't be detected by the scouters, and not only that, but Nappa's rage got the best of him due to constant humiliation and it clouded his ability to fight to the best of his ability. Nappa himself even commented on this in the Manga when Vegeta had told him to come to his senses.

People like to give the argument that Goku was holding back, but that makes no sense; he powered up to 8,000 and since then, there wasn't any indicators he had been holding back ever since. Why would he power up and show off just to suppress his power again? There's no sense in that.

So as soon as Nappa calmed down and started to fight seriously with a great sense of focus, he immediately tried to catch Goku by surprise by blowing the ground from underneath. Goku managed to get out of the way just in time, but Nappa was on him like white on rice. Goku just barely managed to dodge an incoming punch from Nappa, and Goku retaliated, but Nappa also barely dodged the counterattack kick from Goku.

After, the two started going back and forth in a quick barrage of punches and kicks and there was no indication that either of the two managed to hit any kind of critical strike on to one another. In fact, it was made quite clear that they were at a complete stalemate.

Goku says Nappa was doing much better and even says that the fight could take forever. Why else would he say that unless the two were damn near equal in power? (without usage of Kaio-Ken)

So after Vegeta decided to tag himself into the fight, Nappa went to attack Gohan and Krillin. The issue here is that even if Nappa was somehow miraculously still with a battle power of 4,000 at this point, Goku shouldn't have needed to force himself to use the Kaio-Ken to catch up with him because he would already be twice his speed and power. That in itself makes no sense.

One thing we now know with Saiyans is that they get stronger as they fight, even though it's forever been the belief that they get stronger after they fight and after they experience near death situations, though now it's all three.

The thing with Nappa and Vegeta at this time is that neither of the two are aware of how they can suppress their battle powers, so it's not as if he was suppressed the entire time. For one, it is made genuinely clear that Nappa wasn't fighting as well because of his temper, and it can also be concluded that he got a little stronger during the three hour wait.

He didn't take much damage against Chaotzu, Tien, Piccolo, etc, but he got his work cut in for him. I highly doubt his power was much less than 8,000 before Goku arrived, but that three hour waiting period could have boosted him to being equal to Goku. I am not saying that this is actually the case, but it's a high possibility. Even disregarding that notion, it's just blatantly clear that Nappa's full power is equal to that of Goku.

I know people go by guides and daizenshuu and all, but the Manga has all the proof you could possibly need. No way someone twice as strong as the other person is going to be having trouble with the weaker opponent, and fight on equal terms. That simply does not happen and has never been the case.

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Re: I don't understand why people keep believing Nappa's power-level is 4,000

Post by FoolsGil » Mon Mar 22, 2021 11:00 am

To be honest there really is no way to explain anything about Nappa's power, imho it's a narrative mess

1) Nappa needed to show that the Dragon Team was outclassed, but at the same time:
2) Goku needed to show up before everyone on the team was wiped out, and then finally:
3) Because shonen subversion, Goku needed to show his full capabilities without wiping Nappa out completely, making the viewer (along with Gohan and Krillin) doubt Goku before revealing Kaioken.

So all in all Nappa has to be completely utterly incompetant, probably even a worst fighter than Raditz, for him to decimate Tenshinhan and Chaozu, but still fall for simple tricks, almost lose his head, and have Piccolo within a stone's throw distance of Nappa to keep up just a tad to keep Krillin and Gohan alive for the next arc, until Goku arrived and Nappa can finally kill Piccolo too, and then make Nappa a worthy jobber instead of a one shot. and Piccolo at most was around 3000, so Nappa was given 4000.

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Re: I don't understand why people keep believing Nappa's power-level is 4,000

Post by Yasai9001 » Mon Mar 22, 2021 11:06 am

FoolsGil wrote: Mon Mar 22, 2021 11:00 am To be honest there really is no way to explain anything about Nappa's power, imho it's a narrative mess

1) Nappa needed to show that the Dragon Team was outclassed, but at the same time:
2) Goku needed to show up before everyone on the team was wiped out, and then finally:
3) Because shonen subversion, Goku needed to show his full capabilities without wiping Nappa out completely, making the viewer (along with Gohan and Krillin) doubt Goku before revealing Kaioken.

So all in all Nappa has to be completely utterly incompetant, probably even a worst fighter than Raditz, for him to decimate Tenshinhan and Chaozu, but still fall for simple tricks, almost lose his head, and have Piccolo within a stone's throw distance of Nappa to keep up just a tad to keep Krillin and Gohan alive for the next arc, until Goku arrived and Nappa can finally kill Piccolo too. and Piccolo at most was around 3000, so Nappa was given 4000.
I agree that Nappa's incompetent. The thing about Raditz and Nappa is that they are insanely careless; I can only imagine just how stupid those other two Saiyans that survived with Vegeta, Nappa, and Raditz were (the ones in Dragon Ball Super: Broly) since they didn't even manage to last until the start of Z came around, lol. It was probably a relief to get rid of Nappa for Vegeta.

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Re: I don't understand why people keep believing Nappa's power-level is 4,000

Post by FoolsGil » Mon Mar 22, 2021 12:33 pm

In hindsight Toriyama should have went with 3 - 4 Saiyans coming to Earth. The Dragon Team would have given everything to take out the first 1 or 2, leaving Nappa to face off with Piccolo, Gohan, and Krillin. Then basically play out in canon with Goku returned to Earth. Then Nappa's high power would be cemented in him having killed Piccolo with one blast, is fighting evenly with Goku, and then stopped with Kaioken.

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Re: I don't understand why people keep believing Nappa's power-level is 4,000

Post by theherodjl » Mon Mar 22, 2021 12:49 pm

The fact is, scouters do not properly display the true power of the individual scanned and the true power of an individual is not decided by a simple number. Nappa can be scanned as being at 4,000 and that can be a completely accurate reading as far as the scouter's sensors are concerned. However, there are different facets to a fighter's abilities that cannot properly be accounted for by a simple machine reading and it leads to a grave misconception of how powerful the fighter really is. In a more recent example, this was the case with Kahseral's device misreading Roshi's PL as being remarkably low yet Roshi(even commenting on why relying on such readings is fallacious) handled Kahseral easily and eliminated him in the ToP.
Its understandable why Toriyama dropped the numbers since they can not and do not work when comparing fighters and their full capabilities.
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Re: I don't understand why people keep believing Nappa's power-level is 4,000

Post by Koitsukai » Mon Mar 22, 2021 1:19 pm

The 4,000 BP makes sense only if it was Nappa's power against the earthlings. Enough to overwhelm them but not to one-shot them beyond recovery.
Against Goku, he must've been around 7,000 or 8,000, I'd say his full power was 8,000 with Goku being unclearly above 8,000. Even when Nappa went full power, Goku still managed to keep the edge, being able to respond and deflect Nappa's strongest attack in the blink of an eye, and Vegeta's reaction and resolution to have him step back, even before KK was used, speak of Goku's superiority. He was also probably saving something - not just kaioken- for Vegeta. He didn't go KK from the beginning vs Vegeta, so he most likely wasn't going FP vs Nappa.

He used kaioken when Nappa was attacking the children, with already some distance covered by Nappa, so naturally he wouldn't be able to close it with his regular speed, no matter how much faster he could've been.

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Re: I don't understand why people keep believing Nappa's power-level is 4,000

Post by FoolsGil » Mon Mar 22, 2021 1:52 pm

Koitsukai wrote: Mon Mar 22, 2021 1:19 pm The 4,000 BP makes sense only if it was Nappa's power against the earthlings. Enough to overwhelm them but not to one-shot them beyond recovery.
Against Goku, he must've been around 7,000 or 8,000, I'd say his full power was 8,000 with Goku being unclearly above 8,000. Even when Nappa went full power, Goku still managed to keep the edge, being able to respond and deflect Nappa's strongest attack in the blink of an eye, and Vegeta's reaction and resolution to have him step back, even before KK was used, speak of Goku's superiority. He was also probably saving something - not just kaioken- for Vegeta. He didn't go KK from the beginning vs Vegeta, so he most likely wasn't going FP vs Nappa.

He used kaioken when Nappa was attacking the children, with already some distance covered by Nappa, so naturally he wouldn't be able to close it with his regular speed, no matter how much faster he could've been.

But that's another thing: Space faring warriors can't raise or lower their power level, that's why Vegeta on Namek was able to get around Freeza and wreak havok on his fighters save the Ginyu Force and it was made to sound like a big deal, him learning Earthling skills.
theherodjl wrote: Mon Mar 22, 2021 12:49 pm The fact is, scouters do not properly display the true power of the individual scanned and the true power of an individual is not decided by a simple number. Nappa can be scanned as being at 4,000 and that can be a completely accurate reading as far as the scouter's sensors are concerned. However, there are different facets to a fighter's abilities that cannot properly be accounted for by a simple machine reading and it leads to a grave misconception of how powerful the fighter really is. In a more recent example, this was the case with Kahseral's device misreading Roshi's PL as being remarkably low yet Roshi(even commenting on why relying on such readings is fallacious) handled Kahseral easily and eliminated him in the ToP.
Its understandable why Toriyama dropped the numbers since they can not and do not work when comparing fighters and their full capabilities.
And if it wasn't for the fact Toriyama wasn't capable of showing that effectively, maybe that would make sense. But whether numbers are shown or not, the hierarchy is clear. The only reason Nappa is like this is because Toriyama said 2 Saiyans coming to Earth, not 3.

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Re: I don't understand why people keep believing Nappa's power-level is 4,000

Post by Koitsukai » Mon Mar 22, 2021 2:51 pm

FoolsGil wrote: Mon Mar 22, 2021 1:52 pm
Koitsukai wrote: Mon Mar 22, 2021 1:19 pm The 4,000 BP makes sense only if it was Nappa's power against the earthlings. Enough to overwhelm them but not to one-shot them beyond recovery.
Against Goku, he must've been around 7,000 or 8,000, I'd say his full power was 8,000 with Goku being unclearly above 8,000. Even when Nappa went full power, Goku still managed to keep the edge, being able to respond and deflect Nappa's strongest attack in the blink of an eye, and Vegeta's reaction and resolution to have him step back, even before KK was used, speak of Goku's superiority. He was also probably saving something - not just kaioken- for Vegeta. He didn't go KK from the beginning vs Vegeta, so he most likely wasn't going FP vs Nappa.

He used kaioken when Nappa was attacking the children, with already some distance covered by Nappa, so naturally he wouldn't be able to close it with his regular speed, no matter how much faster he could've been.

But that's another thing: Space faring warriors can't raise or lower their power level, that's why Vegeta on Namek was able to get around Freeza and wreak havok on his fighters save the Ginyu Force and it was made to sound like a big deal, him learning Earthling skills.
That's certainly true, but while they can't tweak their power like the Kami-trained fighters, they still have a base power and a full power. By the time he came to Earth, Vegeta had some base power that he used to do most of non-serious fighting (his initial fight with Goku was with it), and when things got messier he had his unclimbable-wall power up.

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Re: I don't understand why people keep believing Nappa's power-level is 4,000

Post by Desassina » Mon Mar 22, 2021 2:53 pm

Nappa's battle power of 4'000 could be true when he wasn't giving his all against the earthlings and got slightly damaged by their attacks. It's both a statement of his carelessness and the humans' hopelessness. Don't get stuck on those battle powers though, because Piccolo's difference to Nappa was less than against Raditz, and there is a statement in narrative to show that it's nothing like before.

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Re: I don't understand why people keep believing Nappa's power-level is 4,000

Post by Kaboom » Mon Mar 22, 2021 4:00 pm

There's a lot of points I could make and things that I could cite, but I think I'd rather let it all boil down to this...
Yasai9001 wrote: Mon Mar 22, 2021 10:43 amNo way someone twice as strong as the other person is going to be having trouble with the weaker opponent, and fight on equal terms.
Says who?
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Re: I don't understand why people keep believing Nappa's power-level is 4,000

Post by LightBing » Mon Mar 22, 2021 4:32 pm

Kaboom wrote: Mon Mar 22, 2021 4:00 pmSays who?
The author who consistently uses the "twice as strong" to demonstrate overwhelming odds. It's one of Toriyama trademarks together with the previous villain being dismantled to highlight the new threat.

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Re: I don't understand why people keep believing Nappa's power-level is 4,000

Post by BagetaSama » Mon Mar 22, 2021 5:13 pm

LightBing wrote: Mon Mar 22, 2021 4:32 pm
Kaboom wrote: Mon Mar 22, 2021 4:00 pmSays who?
The author who consistently uses the "twice as strong" to demonstrate overwhelming odds. It's one of Toriyama trademarks together with the previous villain being dismantled to highlight the new threat.
To be fair, Vegeta one shot Cui with a 33% advantage, Goku one shot Recoome with a roughly 50% advantage, Ginyu conceded defeat more or less upon Goku having a 50% advantage, Vegeta dominated Dodoria with only an 11% advantage, and defeated Zarbon fairly easily with a 4% advantage, and Monster Zarbon dominated Vegeta with a 25% advantage. And with SSJ2, it's only supposed to be a 2x increase, yet Gohan went from being shit on by suppressed Cell, to Cell being essentially one shot material. So it seems like small gaps are definitely not needed.

So a 2x advantage should be absolutely colossal, or in other words, an 100% advantage. But then again, Raditz was almost triple Piccolo and Goku and it wasn't really as overwhelming as you'd expect from everything in the Namek arc.

I don't know if you mention any of this in the OP or not, it was wayyyy too long for me to read.

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Re: I don't understand why people keep believing Nappa's power-level is 4,000

Post by Cursed Lemon » Mon Mar 22, 2021 7:12 pm

Soooooooo is Nappa effectively on par with Vegeta, too?
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Re: I don't understand why people keep believing Nappa's power-level is 4,000

Post by Yasai9001 » Mon Mar 22, 2021 7:48 pm

Kaboom wrote: Mon Mar 22, 2021 4:00 pm There's a lot of points I could make and things that I could cite, but I think I'd rather let it all boil down to this...
Yasai9001 wrote: Mon Mar 22, 2021 10:43 amNo way someone twice as strong as the other person is going to be having trouble with the weaker opponent, and fight on equal terms.
Says who?
Yes, you have arrived, my good dear acquaintance. And I say so judging by what's been shown in the manga. I firmly believe that Nappa had to have gotten stronger throughout the fight, perhaps after that three hour wait for Goku because he did take some shots here and there. Goku didn't seem to be holding back without the usage of the Kaio-Ken and Nappa tanked that attack head on, though Goku managed to one shot Recoom with the same strike being twice his power. Unless the stronger opponent who is two times as powerful is just playing with their food, I see not how the weaker fighter can take so many critical strikes.

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Re: I don't understand why people keep believing Nappa's power-level is 4,000

Post by apex_pretador » Tue Mar 23, 2021 10:12 am

The "4000" number for Nappa comes from the same source as 3500 number for Piccolo in the same battle.
When we compare the two battles, we can absolutely see how this cannot be true:
Piccolo vs "playing around" Nappa:
  • Even when working as a team, Piccolo struggles to land his blasts on Nappa
  • With one blow to head, Nappa almost kills Piccolo
  • With another casual blast (meant for Gohan), Piccolo is dead
  • Nappa is hit by Piccolo's sneak-attack blast from behind when he's off-guard and all it does is barely burn his skin - when he is not wearing his armor
Goku vs Nappa (serious):
  • Goku and Nappa traded blows, blocked each of the opponent's blows
  • Goku got worried when Nappa used his mouth canon and used KHH to deflect it
  • Vegeta, after seeing Goku's power level was "over 8000" and after seeing him in action, still believed Nappa could win, although "it may take forever"
  • Goku believed that beating Nappa "may take forever"
From herms's strength checker:
Goku: “Phew. If I had taken that one head on, I’d have been in trouble!!”
other stuff
  • Goku sensed ki of the battle and noted as "one small ki and 2 large kis" fighting "two massive kis", grouping Piccolo with Krillin and nappa with resting vegeta
  • Nappa punched Tenshinhan's arm off casually with ~2x gap (going by the "guidebook" power levels), yet him and GOku at same gap were trading blows
  • Piccolo was singing praises of Nappa's monstrosity throughout the battle.
Yeah, but all the logic should be ignored because the same source which gives Dodoria 22k compared to Vegeta's 24k gave Nappa 4k compared to Goku's 8k+.
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Re: I don't understand why people keep believing Nappa's power-level is 4,000

Post by LightBing » Tue Mar 23, 2021 11:29 am

Another relevant aspect not mentioned is how after the famous 8000 line, Nappa and most importantly Vegeta still think there's a chance.

Even after Nappa get's toyed initially justified by his mental state.

Chapter: 225 (DBZ 31), P14.2
Context: after Goku has been outclassing Nappa
Vegeta: “Nappa!!!! Get a hold of yourself, fool!!!! He’s not an opponent you can’t take if you keep your head!!! Calm down!!!!”


Plus he stalled a freaking Kamehameha! The anime might have cheapened the move by having Goku spam it but in the manga Goku rarely uses it more than once a fight. It's one of his best techniques, not a random ki blast.

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Re: I don't understand why people keep believing Nappa's power-level is 4,000

Post by Yasai9001 » Tue Mar 23, 2021 12:34 pm

All valid points you guys are making right now.

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Re: I don't understand why people keep believing Nappa's power-level is 4,000

Post by jjgp1112 » Tue Mar 23, 2021 1:18 pm

BagetaSama wrote: Mon Mar 22, 2021 5:13 pm
LightBing wrote: Mon Mar 22, 2021 4:32 pm
Kaboom wrote: Mon Mar 22, 2021 4:00 pmSays who?
The author who consistently uses the "twice as strong" to demonstrate overwhelming odds. It's one of Toriyama trademarks together with the previous villain being dismantled to highlight the new threat.
To be fair, Vegeta one shot Cui with a 33% advantage, Goku one shot Recoome with a roughly 50% advantage, Ginyu conceded defeat more or less upon Goku having a 50% advantage, Vegeta dominated Dodoria with only an 11% advantage, and defeated Zarbon fairly easily with a 4% advantage, and Monster Zarbon dominated Vegeta with a 25% advantage. And with SSJ2, it's only supposed to be a 2x increase, yet Gohan went from being shit on by suppressed Cell, to Cell being essentially one shot material. So it seems like small gaps are definitely not needed.

So a 2x advantage should be absolutely colossal, or in other words, an 100% advantage. But then again, Raditz was almost triple Piccolo and Goku and it wasn't really as overwhelming as you'd expect from everything in the Namek arc.

I don't know if you mention any of this in the OP or not, it was wayyyy too long for me to read.
Yeah, that's the thing: in real life a fight between two competitors of equal strength and ability is just as likely to end in 5 seconds as it is to go 15 rounds. And similarly, even a weak man can knock out a strong man if they catch them slipping and get a clean shot in (90% of upsets. Most of these fighters go right back to being trash afterwards).

Numbers and gaps can't account for the fact that a punch to the face really hurts and the characters are differently equipped to handle things. In Nappa's case, I think he's just such a tank that he can prolong a fight.
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Re: I don't understand why people keep believing Nappa's power-level is 4,000

Post by Yasai9001 » Tue Mar 23, 2021 1:34 pm

jjgp1112 wrote: Tue Mar 23, 2021 1:18 pm
BagetaSama wrote: Mon Mar 22, 2021 5:13 pm
LightBing wrote: Mon Mar 22, 2021 4:32 pm
The author who consistently uses the "twice as strong" to demonstrate overwhelming odds. It's one of Toriyama trademarks together with the previous villain being dismantled to highlight the new threat.
To be fair, Vegeta one shot Cui with a 33% advantage, Goku one shot Recoome with a roughly 50% advantage, Ginyu conceded defeat more or less upon Goku having a 50% advantage, Vegeta dominated Dodoria with only an 11% advantage, and defeated Zarbon fairly easily with a 4% advantage, and Monster Zarbon dominated Vegeta with a 25% advantage. And with SSJ2, it's only supposed to be a 2x increase, yet Gohan went from being shit on by suppressed Cell, to Cell being essentially one shot material. So it seems like small gaps are definitely not needed.

So a 2x advantage should be absolutely colossal, or in other words, an 100% advantage. But then again, Raditz was almost triple Piccolo and Goku and it wasn't really as overwhelming as you'd expect from everything in the Namek arc.

I don't know if you mention any of this in the OP or not, it was wayyyy too long for me to read.
Yeah, that's the thing: in real life a fight between two competitors of equal strength and ability is just as likely to end in 5 seconds as it is to go 15 rounds. And similarly, even a weak man can knock out a strong man if they catch them slipping and get a clean shot in (90% of upsets. Most of these fighters go right back to being trash afterwards).

Numbers and gaps can't account for the fact that a punch to the face really hurts and the characters are differently equipped to handle things. In Nappa's case, I think he's just such a tank that he can prolong a fight.
So if I were to suggest that Nappa being in those prolonged fights contributed to a potential boost in power substantial enough to put him on even terms with Goku, would you agree? Now that's it's been established that Saiyans can grow stronger as they fight (sure depending on the circumstances), it is possible Nappa gained some strength (especially since there was a three hour wait where his body could just be resting and recuperating whatever little bit of damage done) prior to springing right back into action just moments prior to Goku's arrival.

That's not counting his sloppiness when he's fighting in a rage induced mood.

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Re: I don't understand why people keep believing Nappa's power-level is 4,000

Post by Koitsukai » Tue Mar 23, 2021 2:05 pm

Yasai9001 wrote: Tue Mar 23, 2021 1:34 pm Now that's it's been established that Saiyans can grow stronger as they fight (sure depending on the circumstances), it is possible Nappa gained some strength (especially since there was a three hour wait where his body could just be resting and recuperating whatever little bit of damage done) prior to springing right back into action just moments prior to Goku's arrival.
When and where was this confirmed, beyond a mere way of saying? I recall Vegeta saying something similar to that to Dodoria but with clearly different implications, not necessarily during the fight, and later repeated the speech to Zarbon, confirming that saiyans get stronger after recovering from fatal injuries, not before or while getting injured. That's why Zarbon gets fucked and Vegeta calls him out on it, because he let Vegeta recover, but Vegeta never grew stronger in their first encounter. Krilin chimed in on it by understanding that's the reason why Goku kept getting stronger as a kid after each fight, not mid-fight, something that never happened to Goku.
Which was consistent with the power ups they received althroughout the show, and specially consistent with what happened on Earth, which is part of Vegeta's explanation to Dodoria.

Excluding the anime ToP, Black, transformations and techniques I can't rememeber any fight where they got stronger during the fight, usually they enter a fight with a certain power and win or lose with it. Not even vs Goku, Vegeta got stronger during the fight as it went along and got trashed by KKx3. Only after.

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