I don't understand why people keep believing Nappa's power-level is 4,000

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Yasai9001
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Re: I don't understand why people keep believing Nappa's power-level is 4,000

Post by Yasai9001 » Tue Mar 23, 2021 2:14 pm

Koitsukai wrote: Tue Mar 23, 2021 2:05 pm
Yasai9001 wrote: Tue Mar 23, 2021 1:34 pm Now that's it's been established that Saiyans can grow stronger as they fight (sure depending on the circumstances), it is possible Nappa gained some strength (especially since there was a three hour wait where his body could just be resting and recuperating whatever little bit of damage done) prior to springing right back into action just moments prior to Goku's arrival.
When and where was this confirmed, beyond a mere way of saying? I recall Vegeta saying something similar to that to Dodoria but with clearly different implications, not necessarily during the fight, and later repeated the speech to Zarbon, confirming that saiyans get stronger after recovering from fatal injuries, not before or while getting injured. That's why Zarbon gets fucked and Vegeta calls him out on it, because he let Vegeta recover, but Vegeta never grew stronger in their first encounter. Krilin chimed in on it by understanding that's the reason why Goku kept getting stronger as a kid after each fight, not mid-fight, something that never happened to Goku.
Which was consistent with the power ups they received althroughout the show, and specially consistent with what happened on Earth, which is part of Vegeta's explanation to Dodoria.

Excluding the anime ToP, Black, transformations and techniques I can't rememeber any fight where they got stronger during the fight, usually they enter a fight with a certain power and win or lose with it. Not even vs Goku, Vegeta got stronger during the fight as it went along and got trashed by KKx3. Only after.
This was pretty much established in the T.O.P. no? Asides from that, you are right about this never being showcased in any other fight and that was me assuming. Given how the starting post on this topic says that it could be a possibility, though not definite, I wasn't sure, though seeing as to how nobody objected to this as well as seeing many other fans go by this statement, I took it as truth.

It was never blatantly shown that Saiyans get stronger during their fight until the top (correct me if I'm wrong), which is why I believed Nappa could have gotten stronger during the waiting period as his body was pretty much in a resting state at this point. It couldn't have been much of a boost anyway since he was fighting weaker opponents, albeit it's simply another thing to think about.

Still on the fence about it personally, but it's majorly believed to be the case now. What's your take on it really

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Re: I don't understand why people keep believing Nappa's power-level is 4,000

Post by Koitsukai » Tue Mar 23, 2021 2:42 pm

Yasai9001 wrote: Tue Mar 23, 2021 2:14 pm
Koitsukai wrote: Tue Mar 23, 2021 2:05 pm
Yasai9001 wrote: Tue Mar 23, 2021 1:34 pm Now that's it's been established that Saiyans can grow stronger as they fight (sure depending on the circumstances), it is possible Nappa gained some strength (especially since there was a three hour wait where his body could just be resting and recuperating whatever little bit of damage done) prior to springing right back into action just moments prior to Goku's arrival.
When and where was this confirmed, beyond a mere way of saying? I recall Vegeta saying something similar to that to Dodoria but with clearly different implications, not necessarily during the fight, and later repeated the speech to Zarbon, confirming that saiyans get stronger after recovering from fatal injuries, not before or while getting injured. That's why Zarbon gets fucked and Vegeta calls him out on it, because he let Vegeta recover, but Vegeta never grew stronger in their first encounter. Krilin chimed in on it by understanding that's the reason why Goku kept getting stronger as a kid after each fight, not mid-fight, something that never happened to Goku.
Which was consistent with the power ups they received althroughout the show, and specially consistent with what happened on Earth, which is part of Vegeta's explanation to Dodoria.

Excluding the anime ToP, Black, transformations and techniques I can't rememeber any fight where they got stronger during the fight, usually they enter a fight with a certain power and win or lose with it. Not even vs Goku, Vegeta got stronger during the fight as it went along and got trashed by KKx3. Only after.
This was pretty much established in the T.O.P. no? Asides from that, you are right about this never being showcased in any other fight and that was me assuming. Given how the starting post on this topic says that it could be a possibility, though not definite, I wasn't sure, though seeing as to how nobody objected to this as well as seeing many other fans go by this statement, I took it as truth.

It was never blatantly shown that Saiyans get stronger during their fight until the top (correct me if I'm wrong), which is why I believed Nappa could have gotten stronger during the waiting period as his body was pretty much in a resting state at this point. It couldn't have been much of a boost anyway since he was fighting weaker opponents, albeit it's simply another thing to think about.

Still on the fence about it personally, but it's majorly believed to be the case now. What's your take on it really
The first one I think it was Black, but anime only, in the manga he didn't get away with it IIRC, he needed to be healed. And later on, yes, the ToP had Goku on a power-up frenzy after unlocking Sign UI. I wouldn't give much credit to it though, considering Toei contradicted what was established by Toriyama and that it never made it to the manga.

Even if it were the case, Nappa took little damage before the time out, so it shouldn't provide much of a boost even if he were to have a senzu bean. I'm more inclined to believe he had a base power enough for a stomp (4,000) and a full power to be a decent challenge (8,000), but not enough to defeat Goku, his strongest attack was deflected in a way that surprised him and Vegeta, who forced him to retread and deal with him himself.

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Re: I don't understand why people keep believing Nappa's power-level is 4,000

Post by Yasai9001 » Tue Mar 23, 2021 2:50 pm

Koitsukai wrote: Tue Mar 23, 2021 2:42 pm
Yasai9001 wrote: Tue Mar 23, 2021 2:14 pm
Koitsukai wrote: Tue Mar 23, 2021 2:05 pm

When and where was this confirmed, beyond a mere way of saying? I recall Vegeta saying something similar to that to Dodoria but with clearly different implications, not necessarily during the fight, and later repeated the speech to Zarbon, confirming that saiyans get stronger after recovering from fatal injuries, not before or while getting injured. That's why Zarbon gets fucked and Vegeta calls him out on it, because he let Vegeta recover, but Vegeta never grew stronger in their first encounter. Krilin chimed in on it by understanding that's the reason why Goku kept getting stronger as a kid after each fight, not mid-fight, something that never happened to Goku.
Which was consistent with the power ups they received althroughout the show, and specially consistent with what happened on Earth, which is part of Vegeta's explanation to Dodoria.

Excluding the anime ToP, Black, transformations and techniques I can't rememeber any fight where they got stronger during the fight, usually they enter a fight with a certain power and win or lose with it. Not even vs Goku, Vegeta got stronger during the fight as it went along and got trashed by KKx3. Only after.
This was pretty much established in the T.O.P. no? Asides from that, you are right about this never being showcased in any other fight and that was me assuming. Given how the starting post on this topic says that it could be a possibility, though not definite, I wasn't sure, though seeing as to how nobody objected to this as well as seeing many other fans go by this statement, I took it as truth.

It was never blatantly shown that Saiyans get stronger during their fight until the top (correct me if I'm wrong), which is why I believed Nappa could have gotten stronger during the waiting period as his body was pretty much in a resting state at this point. It couldn't have been much of a boost anyway since he was fighting weaker opponents, albeit it's simply another thing to think about.

Still on the fence about it personally, but it's majorly believed to be the case now. What's your take on it really
The first one I think it was Black, but anime only, in the manga he didn't get away with it IIRC, he needed to be healed. And later on, yes, the ToP had Goku on a power-up frenzy after unlocking Sign UI. I wouldn't give much credit to it though, considering Toei contradicted what was established by Toriyama and that it never made it to the manga.

Even if it were the case, Nappa took little damage before the time out, so it shouldn't provide much of a boost even if he were to have a senzu bean. I'm more inclined to believe he had a base power enough for a stomp (4,000) and a full power to be a decent challenge (8,000), but not enough to defeat Goku, his strongest attack was deflected in a way that surprised him and Vegeta, who forced him to retread and deal with him himself.
Vegeta more than likely got tired of Nappa getting embarrassed and didn't want the fight to drag on any longer. Had Nappa gotten off to a better start, I'm sure Vegeta would have allowed the fight to continue and Goku would have gotten a good run for his money considering how he knew the fight wasn't going to be easy at all.

And you're right, Nappa didn't take much damage prior to the three hour wait, so that suggestion in itself doesn't have much credit, though it was just a thought. Regardless of that, I believe if Goku didn't resort to using the Kaio-Ken, he would have been extremely worn out by the time their fight was finished; I say this because he is more skilled and knows how to sense ki, control, etc far better than Nappa could, so he does hold the advantage.

And even though Vegeta got the reading on Goku's battle power, he was still fine with Nappa taking on Goku. Had Nappa been outclassed and had Vegeta known he stood no chance to begin with, I'm sure he would have pulled him from the fight much earlier.

I really don't think Nappa is given enough credit because that dude is a beast tbh.

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Re: I don't understand why people keep believing Nappa's power-level is 4,000

Post by Hugo Boss » Tue Mar 23, 2021 4:44 pm

I think there is a possibility this is the number the scouter shows when he is showing up to fight, but when he is actually fighting seriously his number is much higher. Basically it functions like Goku’s 5,000.

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Re: I don't understand why people keep believing Nappa's power-level is 4,000

Post by Kaboom » Tue Mar 23, 2021 10:24 pm

Alrighty, I was trying to kind of drop a hint with my first post, but it looks like it didn't catch, so here's the long and short of this.

The series and guidebooks and all other official stuff have never established hard limits for what is or isn't possible at certain power gaps. Even if your chances of winning a fight become exponentially lower the more the power difference grows, there's no hard-defined cutoff where "putting up a fight" suddenly stops being feasible. Numbers aren't everything, and even if "the dude with the higher PL wins" is true 99% of the time, there's a myriad of other factors that can determine how that conclusion is actually reached.

Furthermore, no two fights or fighters are the same. So what if Vegeta quickly and easily killed Kwi with only a 1.3x power advantage? Goku isn't Vegeta, and Nappa isn't Kwi. Fight 1 between Fighters A and B has no bearing on Fight 2 between Fighters C and D. These are unique characters with different traits, strengths, and weaknesses, not stationary robots firing energy beams at each other.

Does the story cite a specific number for Nappa other than the guidebooks' 4,000? No, never happened. Is Nappa's 4,000 a higher number than the strongest person he beat? That's Piccolo at 3,500, so yes. Is Nappa's 4,000 a lower number than the person who beat him? That's Goku at 8,000, so yes again. So it checks out. All the requirements are met.

Yes, sometimes you can see multiple fights with similar power gaps unfolding in similar ways. You can pick out observable trends and use them to speculate about how other hypothetical fights with comparable gaps might unfold. But when you use that as grounds to claim that such fights will always turn out that way, and that official time-tested material suggesting otherwise can't be correct, then you've made the mistake of treating that trend like it's a rule.

At that point it's just making things up about how power levels work, and... well, we have a dedicated thread for that. If anyone wants to keep talking about the pros and cons of Nappa's official PL of 4,000, or what alternate PL they might give him instead, then that's the place to do it.
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