Beerus Creating a new Timeline

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Krillin1994
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Beerus Creating a new Timeline

Post by Krillin1994 » Fri Apr 16, 2021 11:16 pm

I've seen a lot of discussions on time travel and the alternate timelines on this forum over the years. Apologies if this question has been asked before.

How did Beerus killing Zamasu in the main stories universe create a new timeline. I never quite understood how the Goku Black is the Zamasu from the main timeline if he hadn't got killed by Beerus, and how killing him then created a new timeline.

In my mind it makes more sense if there was an almost identical timeline in existence up until that point which led to Black but still a distinct timeline ala future trunks and cells timelines being quite identical until Trunks' return home.

Beerus killing Zamasu in the main timeline would just be that. Killing Zamasu, a person who was simply currently existing in a timeline and then no longer.

It's not like Beerus and Whis did any timetravel. They said that Whis rewind doesn't create new timelines. So I just don't fundamentally understand how killing someone is what creates a new timeline. As that would just mean theoretically any time anyone is killed that causes a branching where a new timeline exists in which they didn't die.

Was a proper explanation ever given to this?. The diagram in the manga showing the timelines is very basic and doesn't really explain this.

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Re: Beerus Creating a new Timeline

Post by TobyS » Sat Apr 17, 2021 4:03 am

So we used to assume someone going back in a time machine specifically and thus the difference of their presence there Vs the first time where they weren't was enough and what caused the split.

Now apparently it's been elaborated on that just going back isn't a big enough change to qualify.

You have to cause a big paradox to split the timeline.

Using knowledge of the future brought back in the time machine caused Beerus to kill zamasu, which he originally didn't, this split the timeline.

This sorta fits with the expanded universe stuff like xenoverse, small changes can fix themselves or be left without creating a new timeline. They only have to restore the timeline close enough and it'll do the rest on its own. And in the case of future Gohan they left him with the knowledge that the androids would probably be defeated or at least trunks would live and this wasn't a big enough alteration to make a new timeline.

In fact Whis rewind is sort of an example of this, obviously he says his time travel is different and doesn't change anything by design...
But theoretically just those characters having that knowledge in their brains and maybe like shifting their weight slightly should make their timeline different from before causing a split, but it doesn't.
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Re: Beerus Creating a new Timeline

Post by Krillin1994 » Sat Apr 17, 2021 4:38 am

I’d assumed already that trunks making the journey back in the first place led to the main stories timeline. It’s not like the second journey back after the 3 years for when the androids appeared created another timeline still.

Even though arguably then he gave knowledge to things and altered events in that second visit. Destroy larval cell. That should’ve created another new time line since it wouldn’t have been discovered without future trunks?

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Re: Beerus Creating a new Timeline

Post by Desassina » Sat Apr 17, 2021 5:06 am

A proper explanation would be that Goku Black showed up in the present to lead the events up to his existence without knowing (in the anime): he made Goku, Beerus and Whis want to investigate Zamasu, Goku to fight against the latter and to motivate him to hate the mortals, and Beerus to kill Zamasu upon confirmation that Gowasu would be dead, which created an instance of time when Zamasu wasn't stopped. Since both had to be connected, the mainline and the existence of Goku Black, Beerus has simply created a bridge to justify them. It wasn't a cause and effect scenario, since Goku Black was already existent, but a change in the mainline for the better, which doesn't rule out defeating him in the future, because it was Trunks's home.

Now, the manga uses the same idea without Goku Black causing his own existence by showing up in the present: basically, Zamasu was already evil, saw Goku being the strongest in the Universe 6 Tournament through Godtube, and carried his own plan without anyone knowing. I don't remember the reason why Beerus killed Zamasu in the present though.

The original Dragon Ball manga has always depicted time travel this way, but fans were more adamant in their defense of timelines as places, and not as instances of time that these characters can return to with the Kaioshin rings now. Had Cell not showed up in the present to tell Piccolo about the lab and Trunks's death, there would be no instance where Trunks departed to the future without knowing, so Cell's presence was a bridge to his own existence and a change for the better in the mainline.

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Re: Beerus Creating a new Timeline

Post by SSJgogeto » Sat Apr 17, 2021 4:46 pm

I saw this theory somewhere and I agreed with it: in my mind, Black's timeline and the main timeline are the same, and when Trunks travel to the past Black's timeline started to be rewritten. If I'm not mistaken, something was said about the consequences of a god killing another god, so Beerus killing Zamasu apparently affected the timeline, causing it to split into two.

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Re: Beerus Creating a new Timeline

Post by SupremeKai25 » Sun Apr 18, 2021 6:06 am

A split had to have happened somewhere in the time-space continuum, the result of that is the split between the Black timeline and the Main timeline. And it might have been multiple factors too:

1) Trunks going back in time to warn Goku of the threat of Goku Black -> This never happened in Black's timeline, obviously.

2) The protagonists going to U10 to investigate the link between Black and Zamasu -> This never happened in Black's timeline. We know Black still fought Goku but it had to have been under different circumstances.

3) The culmination of the split: Beerus killing Zamasu, thus creating a timeline in which Zamasu succeeded. Why would Zamasu's death specifically split time? Because there was a successful Zamasu wreaking havoc in the future. So Zamasu dying in the present had to have split time, otherwise there wouldn't be a Zamasu destroying everything in the future. That's why Beerus created the alternate timeline where Alternate Present Zamasu (Black) succeeded. The existence of Black is necessary for the space-time continuum to hold, if there's no Black timeline then there can't be a Zamasu laying waste to the Future.

This is indeed a time paradox. "Why is Zamasu wreaking havoc in the Future if he died in the Past?", that's the paradox. And it's explained that Black was able to do so thanks to the Time Ring, which protected him from any change happening at any point throughout the space-time continuum.

Also, I just want to say that I hate time travel in fiction :roll:

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Re: Beerus Creating a new Timeline

Post by ZeroNeonix » Sun Apr 18, 2021 12:04 pm

Okay, so it's my understanding that time travel via the Time Rings is different from time travel via a time machine. And those are BOTH different from Whis' ability to rewind time. So if you take Bulma's time machine to the past, you're creating an alternate timeline. When you return to your present, it will be unchanged by the changes made to the past in the alternate timeline.

Whis, of course, just rewinds time, meaning whatever he reverses never happened, so there is no timeline split.

The Time Rings, however, are supposed to only be taken to the future, to get a glimpse of how things will be. The rings are NOT supposed to be used to travel back in time, yet Zamasu uses it for this very purpose, although the Time Rings eventually drag him back to the present, so that the timeline can be preserved. He can also use the Time Rings to travel between alternate timelines, which also does not create changes in any timeline. So the Goku Black we see is from the future of the main timeline. Our Zamasu uses the Time Rings to make two wishes on the Super Dragon Balls without having to wait, then destroys them. He kills Goku and his family, and then he travels to Trunks' timeline to make friends with another version of himself and make a mess of things there. Now because Beerus knows what OUR Zamasu is about to do, he kills him. That means our Zamasu never becomes Goku Black, and the timeline is now screwed up and has to split.

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Re: Beerus Creating a new Timeline

Post by ZeroNeonix » Sun Apr 18, 2021 12:18 pm

Krillin1994 wrote: Sat Apr 17, 2021 4:38 amEven though arguably then he gave knowledge to things and altered events in that second visit. Destroy larval cell. That should’ve created another new time line since it wouldn’t have been discovered without future trunks?
It did. Remember, Bulma had that second copy of her time machine, which Cell had used to travel back in time. That was from the true original timeline, where Trunks returns to the future after saving the past from the androids, gets killed by Cell, and Cell uses the time machine to travel back in time to where the androids still existed. That creates another split in time, the main timeline of the show. Now because of Cell's changes to the past, when Trunks returns to the future, he comes with the knowledge that Cell is about to jump him. He is now prepared, and he is stronger since he had to train to fight the other Cell, and he destroys the Cell of his timeline effortlessly, meaning yet another timeline split.

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Re: Beerus Creating a new Timeline

Post by Krillin1994 » Sun Apr 18, 2021 1:18 pm

ZeroNeonix wrote: Sun Apr 18, 2021 12:18 pm
Krillin1994 wrote: Sat Apr 17, 2021 4:38 amEven though arguably then he gave knowledge to things and altered events in that second visit. Destroy larval cell. That should’ve created another new time line since it wouldn’t have been discovered without future trunks?
It did. Remember, Bulma had that second copy of her time machine, which Cell had used to travel back in time. That was from the true original timeline, where Trunks returns to the future after saving the past from the androids, gets killed by Cell, and Cell uses the time machine to travel back in time to where the androids still existed. That creates another split in time, the main timeline of the show. Now because of Cell's changes to the past, when Trunks returns to the future, he comes with the knowledge that Cell is about to jump him. He is now prepared, and he is stronger since he had to train to fight the other Cell, and he destroys the Cell of his timeline effortlessly, meaning yet another timeline split.
But then the Trunks that gets killed by cell must’ve returned from a further alternate timeline? Which I’ve listed as “4”. Unless I’m wrong


1.Main timeline as seen in show - if trunks never time travelled.

2.Future trunks’ timeline -

3.Future Cell’s timeline where he kills trunks and steal time machine- true original timeline where Trunks returned and used devices to shut down androids. Hadn’t encountered cell in that past so never went into ROSAT and got strong.

4.Timeline where Trunks headed back stopped the androids and cell didn’t appear? - This seems to then be the outlier. Since then there would be a non Android ravaged earth where cell games never happened etc. Years from that point cell would mature. But there would be no androids/time machine for him to return to past.

Then the timeline caused by Beerus.

So we have 5 timelines? But then Zeno erases one but future trunks and Mai head to another alternate one.

Can’t remember how many the anime shows

The Manga shows 6 time rings which must include one from the U12 time machine so must’ve been a timeline caused by that?

But then as soon as Zeno destroys everything the time ring shows to be destroyed suggesting the timeline of FT is destroyed fully. Yet then Goku is able to travel there in the time machine still? So the timeline/world must still exist in some capacity as they were able to travel there.

Then also will this not have created a further new timeline one where Goku didn’t bring back future Zeno? Seems too big an event to not create a new timeline. Since that was another journey back and forward in time resulting in a significant change?

Time travel really is confusing. And this is ignoring the anime aspect of Goku black being a time paradox to cause his own creation/magically being able to one off use his time ring to return the past.

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Re: Beerus Creating a new Timeline

Post by ZeroNeonix » Sun Apr 18, 2021 10:14 pm

Krillin1994 wrote: Sun Apr 18, 2021 1:18 pmBut then the Trunks that gets killed by cell must’ve returned from a further alternate timeline? Which I’ve listed as “4”. Unless I’m wrong


1.Main timeline as seen in show - if trunks never time travelled.

2.Future trunks’ timeline -

3.Future Cell’s timeline where he kills trunks and steal time machine- true original timeline where Trunks returned and used devices to shut down androids. Hadn’t encountered cell in that past so never went into ROSAT and got strong.

4.Timeline where Trunks headed back stopped the androids and cell didn’t appear? - This seems to then be the outlier. Since then there would be a non Android ravaged earth where cell games never happened etc. Years from that point cell would mature. But there would be no androids/time machine for him to return to past.

Then the timeline caused by Beerus.

So we have 5 timelines? But then Zeno erases one but future trunks and Mai head to another alternate one.

Can’t remember how many the anime shows

The Manga shows 6 time rings which must include one from the U12 time machine so must’ve been a timeline caused by that?

But then as soon as Zeno destroys everything the time ring shows to be destroyed suggesting the timeline of FT is destroyed fully. Yet then Goku is able to travel there in the time machine still? So the timeline/world must still exist in some capacity as they were able to travel there.

Then also will this not have created a further new timeline one where Goku didn’t bring back future Zeno? Seems too big an event to not create a new timeline. Since that was another journey back and forward in time resulting in a significant change?

Time travel really is confusing. And this is ignoring the anime aspect of Goku black being a time paradox to cause his own creation/magically being able to one off use his time ring to return the past.
I find it easier to start with the original, unaltered timeline, then go from there.

T1: The future is destroyed by Gero's androids. Bulma creates a time machine and sends Trunks back in time to save Goku and make a happier timeline.

T2: Trunks arrives in the past, gives Goku the news and the antidote. We never see this timeline, so we can only speculate on what happens. The androids are destroyed by the heroes before Cell is born. Trunks returns to the original timeline.

T1: Trunks returns victorious, and he destroys the androids of his own timeline as well. But he knows nothing about Cell, who kills Trunks and uses the time machine to travel back in time.

T3: Cell arrives in the past. At first, this timeline is indistinguishable from T2, since that is the timeline this Cell arrived in. His interference causes another split in the timeline. He absorbs the androids and is defeated by Gohan. At this point, Future Trunks returns to the future stronger than before, and with the foreknowledge of what Cell had done to him in the future.

T4: Trunks arrives to the future, destroys the androids, and kills Cell when he attempts to jump him.

At the end of Z, I think there are four timelines, two of which are only briefly mentioned or implied. T3 is the anime's main universe, where everything takes place. Then Super comes along and makes things more confusing. lol

T3: Zamasu kills his master and uses the Super Dragon Balls to switch bodies with Goku. Then he uses the Time Rings to travel between timelines.

T4: Goku Black finds this timeline's Zamasu, convinces him to join his side, grants him immortality with the Super Dragon Balls, and proceeds to kill everyone in that timeline. Trunks uses the time machine again.

T3: Trunks arrives with the time machine, seeking aid. Through an investigation, Beerus learns of Zamasu's secret and...

T5: Beerus kills the Zamasu of T3, before he becomes Goku Black, thereby unintentionally creating a new timeline. Goku, Vegeta, and Trunks go back to the future.

T4: Goku uses the Zeno button, resulting in the timeline being erased. The heroes escape to the past.

T5: Trunks is bummed about his timeline being gone, but Whis offers to take him to a point of the T4 timeline, allowing him to defeat Goku Black before he can get too far through his plan.

T6: Trunks stops Goku Black, and two versions of both Trunks and Mai live together.

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Re: Beerus Creating a new Timeline

Post by Desassina » Mon Apr 19, 2021 4:15 am

Goku Black going back in time can be salvaged by the fact that he travelled to a future with the ring, and returned to a past whose connection was made by Trunks's departure with the machine, but Goku Black could not exist in a time when his presence was an event changer, because it would lead to his death and unexistence in the past that is connected to the future. In other words, Goku Black was stuck in that line, and his ring was made useless.

This is important, because the idea is that there are no timelines as places, but as different events that Kaioshins can travel to, and whose frequency humans can adjust their time machine to. What they travel to is the same universe in a different instance of time. The fact that Whis recovered the last future that Trunks knew, only this time rewinded so that he could make a change, is not a feat of universe creation more than it is restoration of time.

As a bonus, I will leave something extra, which goes way back:

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Re: Beerus Creating a new Timeline

Post by Polyphase Avatron » Mon Apr 19, 2021 7:58 pm

We Doctor Who fans have a term for this kind of thing:

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Re: Beerus Creating a new Timeline

Post by Hulk10 » Sat May 29, 2021 10:28 pm

Pretty sure that Paradoxes that erase time and space don't exist in Dragon Ball.
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