Do diverged timelines have their own past

Discussion, generally of an in-universe nature, regarding any aspect of the franchise (including movies, spin-offs, etc.) such as: techniques, character relationships, internal back-history, its universe, and more.

Moderators: General Help, Kanzenshuu Staff

User avatar
TobyS
I Live Here
Posts: 2441
Joined: Sun Jun 20, 2010 12:11 pm

Do diverged timelines have their own past

Post by TobyS » Sat May 08, 2021 1:21 pm

So we know there are two kinds of time travel.

Bulmas machine style which if it creates a paradox splits the timeline.

And time patrol style where you can go back anywhere and as long as it isn't changed too much it fixed itself. Chronoa has some say and can do small edits.

But my question is, the past of the split timelines, does it exist? Like because if you go back a year before the split was made it technically hadn't split off a year ago.

Does it share a past with the one it split off from, like a Y shape instead of a straight line.

Or does once it split is has it's own past that is a “copy” of the timeline's it split off froms past?
Yamcha almost certainly did not cheat on Bulma:
He was afraid of Women, Bulma was the flirty one.
Yamcha wanted to get married (it was his gonna be his wish)
He suggested they settle down in the Trunks saga.
Alternate future Trunks is not a reliable source.
Toriyama wanted new SSJ Kids and not make new characters.

JewyB
Beyond Newbie
Posts: 299
Joined: Mon May 28, 2018 4:25 pm

Re: Do diverged timelines have their own past

Post by JewyB » Sat May 08, 2021 2:09 pm

I would imagine the timelines fracture into their own thing, as otherwise Trunks would have just jumped back and popped 16's bomb back inside him, or gone back to where Cell traveled to but took Goku for the ride.

Also, i personally believe that when Zeno erases everything, he takes future and past with it, in a roundabout way, otherwise Trunks could have traveled back for his stuff... Or his... Well his mother..

User avatar
Polyphase Avatron
Born 'n Bred Here
Posts: 6643
Joined: Wed Mar 27, 2013 10:48 am

Re: Do diverged timelines have their own past

Post by Polyphase Avatron » Sun May 09, 2021 2:25 pm

JewyB wrote: Sat May 08, 2021 2:09 pm I would imagine the timelines fracture into their own thing, as otherwise Trunks would have just jumped back and popped 16's bomb back inside him, or gone back to where Cell traveled to but took Goku for the ride.

Also, i personally believe that when Zeno erases everything, he takes future and past with it, in a roundabout way, otherwise Trunks could have traveled back for his stuff... Or his... Well his mother..

Well Whis traveled back to the past of Universe 10 after it was erased, didn't he?
Cool stuff that I upload here because Youtube will copyright claim it: https://vimeo.com/user60967147

User avatar
TobyS
I Live Here
Posts: 2441
Joined: Sun Jun 20, 2010 12:11 pm

Re: Do diverged timelines have their own past

Post by TobyS » Sun May 09, 2021 3:54 pm

I guess he had to have done actually... Damn, well that indirectly answers my question doesn't it!
Yamcha almost certainly did not cheat on Bulma:
He was afraid of Women, Bulma was the flirty one.
Yamcha wanted to get married (it was his gonna be his wish)
He suggested they settle down in the Trunks saga.
Alternate future Trunks is not a reliable source.
Toriyama wanted new SSJ Kids and not make new characters.

User avatar
jonah hex
Newbie
Posts: 8
Joined: Thu Apr 29, 2021 6:23 am

Re: Do diverged timelines have their own past

Post by jonah hex » Fri May 14, 2021 5:52 am

When we talk about this there is one fun fact most of people actually don't know or ignore, they say every time you do time travle and intervene in any event you creating alternative universe (they explain a lot of it in Black Goku arc).
So, that mean that Future Trunks timeline is actually main timeline and moment he showed up in DBZ to kill Frieza and King Cold he created alternative timline, the timline where Goku don't die from hear virus and timeline where Z fighters survive fight with Androids. That mean since that moment we actually watching an alternative universe events and the orginal timeline, one we ware watching until Trunks make time travle is completly eresed by Zeno in DBS at end of Black Goku arc :)

User avatar
TobyS
I Live Here
Posts: 2441
Joined: Sun Jun 20, 2010 12:11 pm

Re: Do diverged timelines have their own past

Post by TobyS » Fri May 14, 2021 6:16 am

jonah hex wrote: Fri May 14, 2021 5:52 am When we talk about this there is one fun fact most of people actually don't know or ignore, they say every time you do time travle and intervene in any event you creating alternative universe (they explain a lot of it in Black Goku arc).
So, that mean that Future Trunks timeline is actually main timeline and moment he showed up in DBZ to kill Frieza and King Cold he created alternative timline, the timline where Goku don't die from hear virus and timeline where Z fighters survive fight with Androids. That mean since that moment we actually watching an alternative universe events and the orginal timeline, one we ware watching until Trunks make time travle is completly eresed by Zeno in DBS at end of Black Goku arc :)
I think Cells timeline is the original actually not Trunks but yes the "main" timeline isn't the original one.
Yamcha almost certainly did not cheat on Bulma:
He was afraid of Women, Bulma was the flirty one.
Yamcha wanted to get married (it was his gonna be his wish)
He suggested they settle down in the Trunks saga.
Alternate future Trunks is not a reliable source.
Toriyama wanted new SSJ Kids and not make new characters.

User avatar
Yuji
Advanced Regular
Posts: 1097
Joined: Tue Dec 01, 2020 6:20 pm

Re: Do diverged timelines have their own past

Post by Yuji » Fri May 14, 2021 7:41 am

I imagine it's a Y shape. When the split occurs, it creates an identical time-line but they still share the same past and any changes that occur via time travel creates a different time-line.

User avatar
jonah hex
Newbie
Posts: 8
Joined: Thu Apr 29, 2021 6:23 am

Re: Do diverged timelines have their own past

Post by jonah hex » Fri May 14, 2021 8:51 am

Yup, they are same until the point where you make difference with time travle like Trunks did with him show up and beat Frieza and Cold.
Everything until that point happend same like we saw it in db/dbz.

User avatar
TobyS
I Live Here
Posts: 2441
Joined: Sun Jun 20, 2010 12:11 pm

Re: Do diverged timelines have their own past

Post by TobyS » Fri May 14, 2021 10:21 am

jonah hex wrote: Fri May 14, 2021 8:51 am Yup, they are same until the point where you make difference with time travle like Trunks did with him show up and beat Frieza and Cold.
Everything until that point happend same like we saw it in db/dbz.
Right but the issue would be if you alter time using the time scrolls at a point before the split would it affect both timelines.

I'm starting to think it doesn't. It'd just affect the past of the split one. It would have its own past which would be the same as the other timelines, but they I'm starting to think it's not a y shape. It's more like a copy paste and then just changing one of them
Yamcha almost certainly did not cheat on Bulma:
He was afraid of Women, Bulma was the flirty one.
Yamcha wanted to get married (it was his gonna be his wish)
He suggested they settle down in the Trunks saga.
Alternate future Trunks is not a reliable source.
Toriyama wanted new SSJ Kids and not make new characters.

DragonBallFoodie
Advanced Regular
Posts: 1371
Joined: Tue Jun 28, 2016 5:12 pm
Location: Zambia, Southern Africa

Re: Do diverged timelines have their own past

Post by DragonBallFoodie » Sat May 15, 2021 6:22 am

Yuji wrote: Fri May 14, 2021 7:41 am I imagine it's a Y shape. When the split occurs, it creates an identical time-line but they still share the same past and any changes that occur via time travel creates a different time-line.
I agree.

Like a fork in the road: it splits your future into different routes, but you come from the same past.
"Don't take pleasure in destruction!" / "I will not let you destroy my world!"
A true hero goes beyond not the limits of power, but the limits that divide countries and people.

User avatar
Yuji
Advanced Regular
Posts: 1097
Joined: Tue Dec 01, 2020 6:20 pm

Re: Do diverged timelines have their own past

Post by Yuji » Sat May 15, 2021 10:02 am

TobyS wrote: Fri May 14, 2021 10:21 am
jonah hex wrote: Fri May 14, 2021 8:51 am Yup, they are same until the point where you make difference with time travle like Trunks did with him show up and beat Frieza and Cold.
Everything until that point happend same like we saw it in db/dbz.
Right but the issue would be if you alter time using the time scrolls at a point before the split would it affect both timelines.

I'm starting to think it doesn't. It'd just affect the past of the split one. It would have its own past which would be the same as the other timelines, but they I'm starting to think it's not a y shape. It's more like a copy paste and then just changing one of them
You're suggesting they have more of a H-shape, instead? Considering how the Time Patrol functions, perhaps that is the case for them, but in the original series (and Super, since Gowasu specifically states that going back in time even with the time ring would cause a split), it'd be more of a Y-shape.

Anonymous Friend
I'm, pretty, cozy, here...
Posts: 1555
Joined: Sun Sep 03, 2006 12:10 am
Location: Earth-1218
Contact:

Re: Do diverged timelines have their own past

Post by Anonymous Friend » Fri May 28, 2021 2:53 pm

Every time someone travel to the past, they create a new timeline, the one where they exist in the past. Just the matter of someone existing in a place they shouldn't means it's different.

The problem lies in what you return to when you leave that timeline. Dragonaball says you return to your own timeline.Shouldn't that mean that If I make another trip to the past to a later date than I previously visited, I'll be making another split in my own past and not visiting the previous split?
Playstation Network ID/Xbox Gamer Tag: AnonymousFriend
Wii FriendCode: 1003 3740 6652 4063

User avatar
TobyS
I Live Here
Posts: 2441
Joined: Sun Jun 20, 2010 12:11 pm

Re: Do diverged timelines have their own past

Post by TobyS » Sat May 29, 2021 2:04 pm

Anonymous Friend wrote: Fri May 28, 2021 2:53 pm Every time someone travel to the past, they create a new timeline, the one where they exist in the past. Just the matter of someone existing in a place they shouldn't means it's different.

The problem lies in what you return to when you leave that timeline. Dragonaball says you return to your own timeline.Shouldn't that mean that If I make another trip to the past to a later date than I previously visited, I'll be making another split in my own past and not visiting the previous split?
So it seems if you maintain the exact time differential you don't cause additional splits.

Split free travel guranteed to that one time or place.
This came up in the super manga when Goku thinks they can go back to trunks time right after the moment they left but they can't.

If you go into the past or future of that timeline you'd create a split.

However it's apparently now slightly more complicated in that it's specifically causing a noticeable paradox not just being somewhere you weren't before that causes the split but that's the gist.

What I was originally wondering is if you can go back to a shared past before the split was made, however this probably isn't the case, the analogy I'd use is it's like a kit kat bar.

If one end is the past and other the future travelling back from the present and causing a paradox and splitting the timeline is like gripping the kit kat in the middle and breaking it, doesn't matter that you gripped it in the middle the whole bar snaps off and the bottom half (pasts) of both seperate bars are still functionally identical to each other. One just has your thumb print half way up.... Maybe I'm hungry.
Yamcha almost certainly did not cheat on Bulma:
He was afraid of Women, Bulma was the flirty one.
Yamcha wanted to get married (it was his gonna be his wish)
He suggested they settle down in the Trunks saga.
Alternate future Trunks is not a reliable source.
Toriyama wanted new SSJ Kids and not make new characters.

User avatar
Desassina
I'm, pretty, cozy, here...
Posts: 1534
Joined: Thu Nov 26, 2015 9:04 am

Re: Do diverged timelines have their own past

Post by Desassina » Sat Jun 19, 2021 6:12 pm

I think that when they travel back in time, the future that they depart from is not linked to the past that they arrive at, because the splitting event is already part of it, so it's a different history with an on-going future that doesn't connect to the other one. The geometry would be something like this:

A recursive chart with many instances of the same past and of the same future. Timelines are not places in this case. What Cell does (and what Trunks would do by surviving) is to travel to when there is a record of somebody existing in the past with a time machine from the future that he departs from.

Cipher
Born 'n Bred Here
Posts: 6332
Joined: Wed Oct 21, 2009 11:54 pm
Location: Nagano
Contact:

Re: Do diverged timelines have their own past

Post by Cipher » Mon Jun 28, 2021 6:55 am

TobyS wrote: Sat May 08, 2021 1:21 pm But my question is, the past of the split timelines, does it exist?
It exists, but would be identical to the past of the timeline it split off from, up to the point the split occurred.
Like because if you go back a year before the split was made it technically hadn't split off a year ago.
Going back a year before a known split occurred would simply create another new timeline. This is actually what happens when Cell travels back to the year prior to Trunks' first arrival.

Any alterations to established history cause a paradox and result in a split.
Does it share a past with the one it split off from, like a Y shape instead of a straight line.
You could probably visualize it either way--a branching Y shape or two parallel lines. It's kind of immaterial, since all history in the two timelines prior to the split would be identical, and traveling back to the pre-split past of either would result in yet a third timeline.
Or does once it split is has it's own past that is a “copy” of the timeline's it split off froms past?
Again, see above. I think this is the more "correct" way to visualize it, but in practical terms you could probably present it either way.
Anonymous Friend wrote: Fri May 28, 2021 2:53 pm Every time someone travel to the past, they create a new timeline, the one where they exist in the past. Just the matter of someone existing in a place they shouldn't means it's different.

The problem lies in what you return to when you leave that timeline. Dragonaball says you return to your own timeline. Shouldn't that mean that If I make another trip to the past to a later date than I previously visited, I'll be making another split in my own past and not visiting the previous split?
Splits in Dragon Ball account for two histories that both must have occurred. Once a new timeline is created based on that kind of paradox though, one would be free to come and go between their own timeline and this new timeline so long as they never go back far enough to alter more established history.

This is what Trunks does when he comes and goes in the Cell arc. The first time he goes back, he's altering history in a way that's incompatible with his own (his Goku died, but he's creating events where Goku doesn't), which creates a split. Every time after that, though, so long as he always returns to the new timeline at a later time than he last visited it, nothing is being contradicted. Its history has no connection with his own, and his visits are simply part of its unfurling history.

He does create a new split by returning to the main timeline in Super, but that's only because he's inadvertently altering his own history again, by unknowingly arriving in Black's past at a point before Black is created, after Black has already met and interacted with Trunks. (Of course at the time Trunks has no idea where Black came from or that his trip to the past is going to interfere with Black's origin. If it weren't for Black having jumped across timelines and interacted with Trunks, or if Trunks had arrived in the main timeline at a point after Black had already stolen Goku's body and departed, his return in Super wouldn't have caused a new split either.)

Super toys with the additional idea that you need to maintain the time differential to maintain the link between the time machine's native timeline and the last split, but it's proven wrong by the end of both versions of the Future Trunks arc, and is contradictory to the original series (but it's used successfully for tension in the moment, which was probably its main purpose as a plot point).
JewyB wrote: Sat May 08, 2021 2:09 pm Also, i personally believe that when Zeno erases everything, he takes future and past with it, in a roundabout way, otherwise Trunks could have traveled back for his stuff... Or his... Well his mother..
This was already pointed out, but this is literally what Trunks does at the end of the arc. He goes to his timeline at a point prior to Black's rampage (and Zeno's subsequent erasure of it) to prevent its destruction.

Of course, since he's altering his own, must-have-happened history, he's creating a new split/timeline in doing so. And because he's going into his own past, there's already going to be a Trunks there (himself, a year or so prior), which is one of the consequences brought up during the resolution.

User avatar
TobyS
I Live Here
Posts: 2441
Joined: Sun Jun 20, 2010 12:11 pm

Re: Do diverged timelines have their own past

Post by TobyS » Mon Jun 28, 2021 2:37 pm

Cipher wrote: Mon Jun 28, 2021 6:55 am
Right but Time nest time style travel doesn't split, so I meant like if you went to the past of Cells timeline which would be in common with Trunks timeline before he arrived back with or without knowledge of Cell.

That would prove if it was two parallel lines or a Y, if the time patrol were present in one timelines past and not the other, but I guess we'll never know.
Yamcha almost certainly did not cheat on Bulma:
He was afraid of Women, Bulma was the flirty one.
Yamcha wanted to get married (it was his gonna be his wish)
He suggested they settle down in the Trunks saga.
Alternate future Trunks is not a reliable source.
Toriyama wanted new SSJ Kids and not make new characters.

User avatar
ayakuweb
Newbie
Posts: 15
Joined: Fri Jun 11, 2021 2:29 am

Re: Do diverged timelines have their own past

Post by ayakuweb » Mon Jun 28, 2021 2:52 pm

I've never even thought about timelines having their own past.

I do want to see how Goku would have defeated Freeza in the original timeline. I know he'd probably uses Instant Transmission to get to Earth to fight him and his army but I want to know if he'd take them down mercilessly like Trunks.

Cipher
Born 'n Bred Here
Posts: 6332
Joined: Wed Oct 21, 2009 11:54 pm
Location: Nagano
Contact:

Re: Do diverged timelines have their own past

Post by Cipher » Mon Jun 28, 2021 10:17 pm

TobyS wrote: Mon Jun 28, 2021 2:37 pm Right but Time nest time style travel doesn't split, so I meant like if you went to the past of Cells timeline which would be in common with Trunks timeline before he arrived back with or without knowledge of Cell.

That would prove if it was two parallel lines or a Y, if the time patrol were present in one timelines past and not the other, but I guess we'll never know.
I don’t think it’s very easy to bring the Time Patrol spin-off fiction-style time travel in line with the main series, but either way I agree the more “accurate” way to imagine things is each parallel timeline having its own identical past to whatever it split off from.

User avatar
TobyS
I Live Here
Posts: 2441
Joined: Sun Jun 20, 2010 12:11 pm

Re: Do diverged timelines have their own past

Post by TobyS » Tue Jun 29, 2021 11:37 am

Cipher wrote: Mon Jun 28, 2021 10:17 pm
TobyS wrote: Mon Jun 28, 2021 2:37 pm Right but Time nest time style travel doesn't split, so I meant like if you went to the past of Cells timeline which would be in common with Trunks timeline before he arrived back with or without knowledge of Cell.

That would prove if it was two parallel lines or a Y, if the time patrol were present in one timelines past and not the other, but I guess we'll never know.
I don’t think it’s very easy to bring the Time Patrol spin-off fiction-style time travel in line with the main series, but either way I agree the more “accurate” way to imagine things is each parallel timeline having its own identical past to whatever it split off from.
cool yeah that's where I'm at with it too just wanted a second opinion/s :thumbup:
Yamcha almost certainly did not cheat on Bulma:
He was afraid of Women, Bulma was the flirty one.
Yamcha wanted to get married (it was his gonna be his wish)
He suggested they settle down in the Trunks saga.
Alternate future Trunks is not a reliable source.
Toriyama wanted new SSJ Kids and not make new characters.

Post Reply