Universe 6 Saiyans

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Hulk10
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Universe 6 Saiyans

Post by Hulk10 » Sun May 23, 2021 3:29 pm

Are Universe 6 Saiyans stronger than Universe 7 Saiyans thanks to the evolution of no longer having tails?

Yes I get that the Saiyans at least in U7 have their strength tied to their tails regrowth.
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Re: Universe 6 Saiyans

Post by Trouser » Sun May 23, 2021 5:18 pm

I think having a tail is important. To me, it "completes" the Saiyan body. The tails ceased to exist because Toriyama was too lazy to draw them and then he came up with lazy excuse aka evolution.
I think both u6 and u7 are the same, but what's important is individual potential. We know there are strong and weak Saiyans in u7, so it's probably the same in u6.
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Re: Universe 6 Saiyans

Post by Hulk10 » Sun May 23, 2021 5:28 pm

Yeah but is there a different in over all power between the two tribes?
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Re: Universe 6 Saiyans

Post by BWri » Sun May 23, 2021 6:27 pm

Hulk10 wrote: Sun May 23, 2021 5:28 pm Yeah but is there a different in over all power between the two tribes?
I think so, but then again there are saiyans in U6 who use cars and guns so all of them can't be mega powerful. I would say their biology naturally makes them more powerful. I think Goten and Trunks being without tails their whole lives made them the same way.
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Re: Universe 6 Saiyans

Post by Hulk10 » Sun May 23, 2021 7:23 pm

BWri wrote: Sun May 23, 2021 6:27 pm
Hulk10 wrote: Sun May 23, 2021 5:28 pm Yeah but is there a different in over all power between the two tribes?
I think so, but then again there are saiyans in U6 who use cars and guns so all of them can't be mega powerful. I would say their biology naturally makes them more powerful. I think Goten and Trunks being without tails their whole lives made them the same way.
Well I personally don't.
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Re: Universe 6 Saiyans

Post by BWri » Sun May 23, 2021 7:26 pm

Hulk10 wrote: Sun May 23, 2021 7:23 pm
BWri wrote: Sun May 23, 2021 6:27 pm
Hulk10 wrote: Sun May 23, 2021 5:28 pm Yeah but is there a different in over all power between the two tribes?
I think so, but then again there are saiyans in U6 who use cars and guns so all of them can't be mega powerful. I would say their biology naturally makes them more powerful. I think Goten and Trunks being without tails their whole lives made them the same way.
Well I personally don't.
Why not? Is it because Goku, Vegeta, and Gohan are way stronger so far?
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Re: Universe 6 Saiyans

Post by Hulk10 » Sun May 23, 2021 7:30 pm

BWri wrote: Sun May 23, 2021 7:26 pm
Hulk10 wrote: Sun May 23, 2021 7:23 pm
BWri wrote: Sun May 23, 2021 6:27 pm
I think so, but then again there are saiyans in U6 who use cars and guns so all of them can't be mega powerful. I would say their biology naturally makes them more powerful. I think Goten and Trunks being without tails their whole lives made them the same way.
Well I personally don't.
Why not? Is it because Goku, Vegeta, and Gohan are way stronger so far?
No its more that I don't think there would be a difference in strength level and potential in different tribes of Saiyans. Plus Kakarot noted that he always felt stronger with his tail.
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Re: Universe 6 Saiyans

Post by BWri » Sun May 23, 2021 9:13 pm

Hulk10 wrote: Sun May 23, 2021 7:30 pm No its more that I don't think there would be a difference in strength level and potential in different tribes of Saiyans.
This could be true overall. I still think Cabba, Kale, and Caulifla are unnaturally strong, but no other Saiyan in U6 has shown this potential so far.
Plus Kakarot noted that he always felt stronger with his tail.
Really? Did he say this in Super?
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Re: Universe 6 Saiyans

Post by Hulk10 » Sun May 23, 2021 9:42 pm

BWri wrote: Sun May 23, 2021 9:13 pm
Hulk10 wrote: Sun May 23, 2021 7:30 pm No its more that I don't think there would be a difference in strength level and potential in different tribes of Saiyans.
This could be true overall. I still think Cabba, Kale, and Caulifla are unnaturally strong, but no other Saiyan in U6 has shown this potential so far.
Plus Kakarot noted that he always felt stronger with his tail.
Really? Did he say this in Super?
No in the original Dragon Ball show. He doesn't have a tail in Super remember?
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Re: Universe 6 Saiyans

Post by BWri » Sun May 23, 2021 10:27 pm

Hulk10 wrote: Sun May 23, 2021 9:42 pm No in the original Dragon Ball show. He doesn't have a tail in Super remember?
Oh, I see. Well, if he said it that long ago then it may not apply anymore. He's never mentioned it since. Or maybe he just felt that way because he was used to having it.
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Re: Universe 6 Saiyans

Post by Hulk10 » Sun May 23, 2021 10:31 pm

BWri wrote: Sun May 23, 2021 10:27 pm
Hulk10 wrote: Sun May 23, 2021 9:42 pm No in the original Dragon Ball show. He doesn't have a tail in Super remember?
Oh, I see. Well, if he said it that long ago then it may not apply anymore. He's never mentioned it since. Or maybe he just felt that way because he was used to having it.
Because he hasn't had a tail in years. But it could still apply.
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Re: Universe 6 Saiyans

Post by Hugo Boss » Mon May 24, 2021 10:35 am

I will just quote your post from the other thread since you apparently wants to continue this discussion here.
Hulk10 wrote: Sun May 23, 2021 3:25 pm Cabba is one of the strongest U6 Saiyans same with Kale and Caulifa but those are not necessarily representative of their entire species. […] One potential reason is that they lost them due to the fact that when a Saiyan's tail is grabbed they lose power.
My point in mentioning Cabba is picking up a representative of an elite force Saiyan. Despite being much younger than Vegeta and not having any experience with SS level threats, Cabba is very strong for a non-mutant. Kale is the only outlier from their tribe. Caulifla just happens to have a similar interest in battle as Goku does and is seen as talented because she is a very instinctive fighter. It wouldn’t be such a stretch to compare Cabba’s role to what Vegeta used to have when U7 Saiyans were still working for Freeza.

As for your reason, Toriyama actually address it. If the strength gained by the Great Ape transformation doesn’t pay off the risk of having the tail grabbed, then it’s better to not have it. It senses the Saiyan is probably strong enough to fight without much worries. Besides, if we work with the assumption that U7 and U6 Saiyans are equally balanced in strength, that would mean U7 threats are much stronger than U6’s and this would require the risk of having a tail. If U6 Saiyans have a elite force, it’s unlikely they have a peaceful universe, so I don’t think this assumption holds any water.

For clarification, I don’t defend that most of U6 Saiyans run around with battle powers of 10,000 or such.

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Re: Universe 6 Saiyans

Post by Hulk10 » Mon May 24, 2021 2:55 pm

Hugo Boss wrote: Mon May 24, 2021 10:35 am I will just quote your post from the other thread since you apparently wants to continue this discussion here.
Hulk10 wrote: Sun May 23, 2021 3:25 pm Cabba is one of the strongest U6 Saiyans same with Kale and Caulifa but those are not necessarily representative of their entire species. […] One potential reason is that they lost them due to the fact that when a Saiyan's tail is grabbed they lose power.
My point in mentioning Cabba is picking up a representative of an elite force Saiyan. Despite being much younger than Vegeta and not having any experience with SS level threats, Cabba is very strong for a non-mutant. Kale is the only outlier from their tribe. Caulifla just happens to have a similar interest in battle as Goku does and is seen as talented because she is a very instinctive fighter. It wouldn’t be such a stretch to compare Cabba’s role to what Vegeta used to have when U7 Saiyans were still working for Freeza.

As for your reason, Toriyama actually address it. If the strength gained by the Great Ape transformation doesn’t pay off the risk of having the tail grabbed, then it’s better to not have it. It senses the Saiyan is probably strong enough to fight without much worries. Besides, if we work with the assumption that U7 and U6 Saiyans are equally balanced in strength, that would mean U7 threats are much stronger than U6’s and this would require the risk of having a tail. If U6 Saiyans have a elite force, it’s unlikely they have a peaceful universe, so I don’t think this assumption holds any water.

For clarification, I don’t defend that most of U6 Saiyans run around with battle powers of 10,000 or such.
No most of U6 Saiyans having 10,000 level battle powers. But I do believe that the two tribes are equal in strength more or less. I think we can peacefully have our difference in views.
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Re: Universe 6 Saiyans

Post by super michael » Mon May 24, 2021 4:19 pm

We are told by Vegeta that when they transform into their Oozaru, their power multiply by 10x. There is nothing in the manga that says having a tail limits their power growth, instead in the 21st Martial Art Tournament against Giran Goku notes that he feels stronger when he has his tail. Goku got used to not having a tail, but just by having his tail regrow he felt stronger.

Goku had to train hard to get rid of his tail weakness.

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Re: Universe 6 Saiyans

Post by Hugo Boss » Mon May 24, 2021 8:17 pm

super michael wrote: Mon May 24, 2021 4:19 pm There is nothing in the manga that says having a tail limits their power growth.
This is not what he is implying though. We are talking about this Toriyama’s tidbit. Basically, this is like having a double-edged sword.

A Saiyan like Raditz is strong, but can have his tail grabbed by weaker opponents and be doomed. If Raditz performs the Great Ape transformation his power increases to over 10,000. With this power, he can comfortably deal with most of the universe’s threats, obviously excluding Freeza and his elite soldiers. But without it, he can’t make much headway against the respected Namekian warriors, for example. So, in his case, the tail is worthy keeping.

A Saiyan like Nappa is a different story, he has a much higher battle power than Raditz. He probably wouldn’t need the Great Ape transformation to beat a Namekian warrior, whose battle power is only around 3,000. So, supposing Nappa didn’t get rid of his tail’s weakness, he wouldn’t need a battle power of over 40,000 to accomplish the task. It would probably best to not risk having his tail grabbed.

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Re: Universe 6 Saiyans

Post by super michael » Tue May 25, 2021 3:20 pm

Hugo Boss wrote: Mon May 24, 2021 8:17 pm
super michael wrote: Mon May 24, 2021 4:19 pm There is nothing in the manga that says having a tail limits their power growth.
This is not what he is implying though. We are talking about this Toriyama’s tidbit. Basically, this is like having a double-edged sword.

A Saiyan like Raditz is strong, but can have his tail grabbed by weaker opponents and be doomed. If Raditz performs the Great Ape transformation his power increases to over 10,000. With this power, he can comfortably deal with most of the universe’s threats, obviously excluding Freeza and his elite soldiers. But without it, he can’t make much headway against the respected Namekian warriors, for example. So, in his case, the tail is worthy keeping.

A Saiyan like Nappa is a different story, he has a much higher battle power than Raditz. He probably wouldn’t need the Great Ape transformation to beat a Namekian warrior, whose battle power is only around 3,000. So, supposing Nappa didn’t get rid of his tail’s weakness, he wouldn’t need a battle power of over 40,000 to accomplish the task. It would probably best to not risk having his tail grabbed.
I can't believe I am saying this, but how in the world can the author be so wrong. Toriyama says the Saiyan huge weakness is that when someone grabs their tail they lose all their strength. Last time I remember Krillin grabbed Goku tail and he didn't lose his strength.
Piccolo grabbed Nappa tail and he didn't lose his strength and it was mentioned Vegeta doesn't lose his strength.

We see Vegeta was able to master his Oozaru form to have 100% control along being able to talk.

Goku was able to use his tail to dodge, trip opponents and even fly when he was almost going to get ring out against Master Roshi. I don't know how that qualifies as useless, when it has been useful for Goku in Dragon Ball.

Goku was able to get Korin water by using his tail to grab on to the tower.

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Re: Universe 6 Saiyans

Post by Hulk10 » Tue May 25, 2021 3:24 pm

super michael wrote: Tue May 25, 2021 3:20 pm
Hugo Boss wrote: Mon May 24, 2021 8:17 pm
super michael wrote: Mon May 24, 2021 4:19 pm There is nothing in the manga that says having a tail limits their power growth.
This is not what he is implying though. We are talking about this Toriyama’s tidbit. Basically, this is like having a double-edged sword.

A Saiyan like Raditz is strong, but can have his tail grabbed by weaker opponents and be doomed. If Raditz performs the Great Ape transformation his power increases to over 10,000. With this power, he can comfortably deal with most of the universe’s threats, obviously excluding Freeza and his elite soldiers. But without it, he can’t make much headway against the respected Namekian warriors, for example. So, in his case, the tail is worthy keeping.

A Saiyan like Nappa is a different story, he has a much higher battle power than Raditz. He probably wouldn’t need the Great Ape transformation to beat a Namekian warrior, whose battle power is only around 3,000. So, supposing Nappa didn’t get rid of his tail’s weakness, he wouldn’t need a battle power of over 40,000 to accomplish the task. It would probably best to not risk having his tail grabbed.
I can't believe I am saying this, but how in the world can the author be so wrong. Toriyama says the Saiyan huge weakness is that when someone grabs their tail they lose all their strength. Last time I remember Krillin grabbed Goku tail and he didn't lose his strength.
Piccolo grabbed Nappa tail and he didn't lose his strength and it was mentioned Vegeta doesn't lose his strength.

We see Vegeta was able to master his Oozaru form to have 100% control along being able to talk.

Goku was able to use his tail to dodge, trip opponents and even fly when he was almost going to get ring out against Master Roshi. I don't know how that qualifies as useless, when it has been useful for Goku in Dragon Ball.

Goku was able to get Korin water by using his tail to grab on to the tower.
Kakarot eventually trained his tail and Nappa and Vegeta trained their tails too.
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Re: Universe 6 Saiyans

Post by super michael » Tue May 25, 2021 3:29 pm

Hulk10 wrote: Tue May 25, 2021 3:24 pm
super michael wrote: Tue May 25, 2021 3:20 pm
Hugo Boss wrote: Mon May 24, 2021 8:17 pm
This is not what he is implying though. We are talking about this Toriyama’s tidbit. Basically, this is like having a double-edged sword.

A Saiyan like Raditz is strong, but can have his tail grabbed by weaker opponents and be doomed. If Raditz performs the Great Ape transformation his power increases to over 10,000. With this power, he can comfortably deal with most of the universe’s threats, obviously excluding Freeza and his elite soldiers. But without it, he can’t make much headway against the respected Namekian warriors, for example. So, in his case, the tail is worthy keeping.

A Saiyan like Nappa is a different story, he has a much higher battle power than Raditz. He probably wouldn’t need the Great Ape transformation to beat a Namekian warrior, whose battle power is only around 3,000. So, supposing Nappa didn’t get rid of his tail’s weakness, he wouldn’t need a battle power of over 40,000 to accomplish the task. It would probably best to not risk having his tail grabbed.
I can't believe I am saying this, but how in the world can the author be so wrong. Toriyama says the Saiyan huge weakness is that when someone grabs their tail they lose all their strength. Last time I remember Krillin grabbed Goku tail and he didn't lose his strength.
Piccolo grabbed Nappa tail and he didn't lose his strength and it was mentioned Vegeta doesn't lose his strength.

We see Vegeta was able to master his Oozaru form to have 100% control along being able to talk.

Goku was able to use his tail to dodge, trip opponents and even fly when he was almost going to get ring out against Master Roshi. I don't know how that qualifies as useless, when it has been useful for Goku in Dragon Ball.

Goku was able to get Korin water by using his tail to grab on to the tower.
Kakarot eventually trained his tail and Nappa and Vegeta trained their tails too.
I am aware that they trained their tail, that is how they got rid of their weakness. But in the interview the only positive thing Toriyama said about the tail was turning into Oozaru, everything else is negative.

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Re: Universe 6 Saiyans

Post by Hulk10 » Tue May 25, 2021 3:37 pm

super michael wrote: Tue May 25, 2021 3:29 pm
Hulk10 wrote: Tue May 25, 2021 3:24 pm
super michael wrote: Tue May 25, 2021 3:20 pm

I can't believe I am saying this, but how in the world can the author be so wrong. Toriyama says the Saiyan huge weakness is that when someone grabs their tail they lose all their strength. Last time I remember Krillin grabbed Goku tail and he didn't lose his strength.
Piccolo grabbed Nappa tail and he didn't lose his strength and it was mentioned Vegeta doesn't lose his strength.

We see Vegeta was able to master his Oozaru form to have 100% control along being able to talk.

Goku was able to use his tail to dodge, trip opponents and even fly when he was almost going to get ring out against Master Roshi. I don't know how that qualifies as useless, when it has been useful for Goku in Dragon Ball.

Goku was able to get Korin water by using his tail to grab on to the tower.
Kakarot eventually trained his tail and Nappa and Vegeta trained their tails too.
I am aware that they trained their tail, that is how they got rid of their weakness. But in the interview the only positive thing Toriyama said about the tail was turning into Oozaru, everything else is negative.
Yeah that's how he views it.
"We became like friends, we became like good friends." Broly to Cheelai and Lemo about his fur pelt.

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