Super has handled new forms far better than Z did

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Super has handled new forms far better than Z did

Post by DSB » Mon Sep 13, 2021 4:21 am

I mean, Super saiyan was outdated literally every other chapter in cell arc. Then came SSj2.

Somehow both Goku and Vegeta crossed that border though normal training, the same border which took Gohan's immense potential and his rage burst to cross through.

Then after that Super Saiyan 3. Even Gotenks somehow got that form.


By contrast, both SSG and Blue are still formidable now ad are still useful.

And UI is literally Super Saiyan done right. Even though it has many users, its extremely hard to get to that power, then its hard to master it, then its hard to make it accurate. And if you absorb a UI user it blows up your body [moro was stronger than ToP Goku when he got UI but still couldnt handle it]

Honestly Super is far ahead of Z in respecting transformation, its astounding.

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Re: Unpopular Opinion- Super has handeled new forms far better than Z did.

Post by SupremeKai25 » Mon Sep 13, 2021 5:10 am

Agreed.

I also love how people make fun of Super forms because "Oh they are just recolours!!! so lazy!!!" when the Super Saiyan form is literally a recolor :D And then SS2 is literally just SS with some more lightning and SS3 is just SS with longer hair.

I can assure you that if Super Saiyan came out today, people would complain that it's just a recolour of Goku's normal hair. It gets a pass only because of one thing: Nostalgia.

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Re: Unpopular Opinion- Super has handeled new forms far better than Z did.

Post by PurestEvil » Mon Sep 13, 2021 5:29 am

SupremeKai25 wrote: Mon Sep 13, 2021 5:10 am
I also love how people make fun of Super forms because "Oh they are just recolours!!! so lazy!!!" when the Super Saiyan form is literally a recolor :D And then SS2 is literally just SS with some more lightning and SS3 is just SS with longer hair.
To be fair, SSJ hair sticks upward and the eyes turn blue. SSJ3 also replaces the eyebrow hairs with a thick muscle.
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Re: Unpopular Opinion- Super has handeled new forms far better than Z did.

Post by SupremeKai25 » Mon Sep 13, 2021 6:16 am

PurestEvil wrote: Mon Sep 13, 2021 5:29 am
SupremeKai25 wrote: Mon Sep 13, 2021 5:10 am
I also love how people make fun of Super forms because "Oh they are just recolours!!! so lazy!!!" when the Super Saiyan form is literally a recolor :D And then SS2 is literally just SS with some more lightning and SS3 is just SS with longer hair.
To be fair, SSJ hair sticks upward and the eyes turn blue. SSJ3 also replaces the eyebrow hairs with a thick muscle.
The God forms also bring minor details to the body and aura of the user, but do the haters ever consider that? No :think:

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Re: Unpopular Opinion- Super has handeled new forms far better than Z did.

Post by The Monkey King » Mon Sep 13, 2021 8:43 am

If you're talking about the DBS manga I can get where you're coming from, especially now Vegeta has Ultra Ego.

But if you're talking about the DBS anime... OH HELL NO :lol: it was a train wreck
  • SSJB level poacher punching #17
  • Gohan nearing SSJB level by training for 2 hours
  • SSJ Rage, the dumbest form of all time
  • Goku sparring with Krillin in SSJB
  • SSJ Trunks holding back SSJR Goku Black
  • SSJB Kaioken and SSJBE are just ugly
  • Tingly back SSJ Transformations
  • SSJB Goku "holding back" 80% of the time

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Re: Unpopular Opinion- Super has handeled new forms far better than Z did.

Post by DSB » Mon Sep 13, 2021 9:42 am

The Monkey King wrote: Mon Sep 13, 2021 8:43 am If you're talking about the DBS manga I can get where you're coming from, especially now Vegeta has Ultra Ego.

But if you're talking about the DBS anime... OH HELL NO :lol: it was a train wreck
  • SSJB level poacher punching #17
  • Gohan nearing SSJB level by training for 2 hours
  • SSJ Rage, the dumbest form of all time
  • Goku sparring with Krillin in SSJB
  • SSJ Trunks holding back SSJR Goku Black
  • SSJB Kaioken and SSJBE are just ugly
  • Tingly back SSJ Transformations
  • SSJB Goku "holding back" 80% of the time

Most of these things can be explained by blue's precise ki control. I always figured that in the blue form goku/vegeta can accurately use how much ki they want to use, down to say 1/100000th of a percent.

Rest can be explained somewhat with the same logic as tenshinhan affecting cell with his kikoho and cell hrs being that strong without cell losing any energy. Dumb but just enough logic to be considered passable.


Btw the super anime is better than the manga. I can never forgive the shit writer toyotaro for destroying the ToP. It's the most fun arc for me since namek.

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Re: Unpopular Opinion- Super has handeled new forms far better than Z did.

Post by VegettoEX » Mon Sep 13, 2021 11:55 am

I don't think it's necessary to frame anything as an "unpopular opinion"; indeed, most of the times that people say that, they're actually explaining something that a large number of other people do actively agree with. I'm going to moder-edit (that's a word, right?) that out of the title to help spur some genuine conversation, rather than have it appear so offputtish (also another actual word that truly exists).

This is something that's really hard for me to not be THE BIAS with, because of just how formative it was for me to be already into the series, not actually have it widely available to me, and see pivotal moments for the first time through clips like this (yes, that's the exact file from the late 90s that I have saved all this time).

The sense of wonder absolutely stripped apart from its surrounding context is something I don't think I can really explain in words, I don't think has been matched by any other fiction-consumption activity in my life, and I wouldn't trade for the world.

So that's why I don't think I can say "Z" or "Super" did "new forms" any "better" than the other. They certainly did them... differently? But also the same sometimes? And also some of them weren't even from Super itself? And some of them are entirely different or devoid from the two mediums the story lives within?

It's kinda apples and oranges to me. Or more like apples and airplanes. How do you even compare the two?

(When I think about "new forms" and Super and what feels "iconic" and dramatic and memorable, what actually first hits my mind's eye is Goku's Super Saiyan God re-reveal against Hit in the manga's U6v7 tournament. Look, I don't call the shots here; my brain does. That's what I saw.)
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Re: Super has handled new forms far better than Z did

Post by Demon Prince Piccolo » Mon Sep 13, 2021 1:02 pm

Rather than saying whether or not I prefer transformations in Z or Super (just because I'm not sure I can accurately answer that), I will say that what usually sells any transformation for me is how it's utilized within the story, with appearance as a runner-up. I love the original, rage-filled SSJ because it turned Goku into something truly unrecognizable. I love SSJ3 because of its more wild look, and also because it felt like such a desperation move from Goku to stall for time against Fat Buu. Despite Gotenks getting the form (I suppose it was to sell the power of Fusion), I'll always associate SSJ3 with Goku. I love SSJ4 for its look, how it ties back to Saiyan roots, and how it was born of love for his granddaughter rather than rage. I love SSG for how it ushered the resurgence of Dragon Ball and opened up some new lore, and further for how Vegeta and Goku utilized it in Super: Broly. Furthermore, when I think of SS Blue now, I think of Gogeta.

I definitely agree with you on Ultra Instinct; the form feels incredibly powerful for how sparingly it's been used (I haven't finished the Moro arc yet), and for how well it's displayed in the anime and manga. When the form does show up, it feels mysterious, majestic, and a bit frightening.

Weirdly enough, SSJ2 stands out the least to me amongst all the transformations, and I used to think it was my favorite form. And while it was unlocked at a pivotal moment, the actual fight with Gohan and Cell isn't all that dynamic. Oh, and the Ascended SSJ forms from the Cell Saga; the only one who displayed this form well for me was Goku in his fight with Cell.
The story of DRAGON BALL starts from the moment Goku met Bulma. I don't really mind the Z, so long as it's understood that it's not the true beginning of the story.

I actually prefer the Goku vs Tenshinhan and Goku vs Piccolo Jr. rivalries to the Goku vs Vegeta rivalry.

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Re: Unpopular Opinion- Super has handeled new forms far better than Z did.

Post by BWri » Mon Sep 13, 2021 1:13 pm

SupremeKai25 wrote: Mon Sep 13, 2021 5:10 am Agreed.

I also love how people make fun of Super forms because "Oh they are just recolours!!! so lazy!!!" when the Super Saiyan form is literally a recolor :D And then SS2 is literally just SS with some more lightning and SS3 is just SS with longer hair.

I can assure you that if Super Saiyan came out today, people would complain that it's just a recolour of Goku's normal hair. It gets a pass only because of one thing: Nostalgia.
It doesn't really work like that. Being the original grants the SSJ form ... originality. And the change from base to SSJ is much more dramatic than the change from SSJ to SSG or SSB, thus the criticism that its just a recolor. The best things the new forms utilize to me is the aura. SSG does have more originality to it visually than SSB so I've always thought they should've continued down that path with evolutions of that form.

As far as SSJ's mystique goes, when introduced, it won the fight it was needed for, thus granting it more prestige. The first fights with SSG and SSB were utter losses so it marks them as somewhat unimpressive. And after, the series marks SSG as inconsequential at best and completely ignore-able at worst. It's use nowadays is always as a "lesser" form whereas SSJ at least got an arc and a half to be relevant.

I give much more credit to the Super manga for adding some prestige to the new forms. I think SSB has had the most longevity and usefulness out of all the forms in the manga including the original SSJ in canon works. The original SSJ comes in a close second though (I included the grade forms and MSSJ as offshoots similar to MSSB and SSBE). Hell, honestly, they may even tie. I have to give that one some thought, but its only due to the manga. The anime treats SSB as a joke most of the time.
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Re: Unpopular Opinion- Super has handeled new forms far better than Z did.

Post by Skar » Mon Sep 13, 2021 1:17 pm

SupremeKai25 wrote: Mon Sep 13, 2021 5:10 am Agreed.

I also love how people make fun of Super forms because "Oh they are just recolours!!! so lazy!!!" when the Super Saiyan form is literally a recolor :D And then SS2 is literally just SS with some more lightning and SS3 is just SS with longer hair.

I can assure you that if Super Saiyan came out today, people would complain that it's just a recolour of Goku's normal hair. It gets a pass only because of one thing: Nostalgia.
It's also because it might be one of the most recognizable and iconic transformations in fiction. It's fine to like the new forms but modern DB is the only time I've seen anyone feel the need to put up the original SSJ. It doesn't sound like you're saying anything good about the new forms and just that previous forms being "lazy" justifies more of it. If someone doesn't like SSJ1 then they probably wouldn't have liked any of the forms that came after or kept up with the series long enough to see them.

In the countless recolored forms that existed since the early 2000s, I've never seen anyone make that argument before. It's either you like them or you don't but SSJ1 is still treated as the most iconic. I like some of the new forms but I try to judge them based on their own merits without attacking the original form that inspired them.

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Re: Super has handled new forms far better than Z did

Post by Demon Prince Piccolo » Mon Sep 13, 2021 1:41 pm

Yep, the ironic thing about trying to discredit the original SSJ with nostalgia is that this argument doesn't paint the newer forms in a great light, either. Not to get off topic, but this is usually the default position some fans of the newer Star Wars material or the Tom Holland Spider-Man movies will make. If someone criticizes those movies, having nostalgia for the original trilogy or the Tobey Maguire films is always the clapback. That's ignoring the myriad of other reasons those films work for so many people. To bring it back to Dragon Ball, SSJ works for a myriad of reasons, nostalgia being far from the only one, and likely the most insignificant.
The story of DRAGON BALL starts from the moment Goku met Bulma. I don't really mind the Z, so long as it's understood that it's not the true beginning of the story.

I actually prefer the Goku vs Tenshinhan and Goku vs Piccolo Jr. rivalries to the Goku vs Vegeta rivalry.

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Re: Super has handled new forms far better than Z did

Post by Grimlock » Mon Sep 13, 2021 1:44 pm

Super Saiyan "is a recolor" of what, exactly? Base form!? Is that the argument they are trying (but failing miserably) to make? :crazy:
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Re: Super has handled new forms far better than Z did

Post by BWri » Mon Sep 13, 2021 1:58 pm

Demon Prince Piccolo wrote: Mon Sep 13, 2021 1:02 pm Rather than saying whether or not I prefer transformations in Z or Super (just because I'm not sure I can accurately answer that), I will say that what usually sells any transformation for me is how it's utilized within the story, with appearance as a runner-up. I love the original, rage-filled SSJ because it turned Goku into something truly unrecognizable.

I kinda wish they kept Goku's eyes red to emphasize this more. If there's ever an OVA of the Frieza arc or a DBZ reboot, I hope they go with the red eyes for the first time Goku goes SSJ.
Image
I love SSJ4 for its look, how it ties back to Saiyan roots, and how it was born of love for his granddaughter rather than rage.
I love this aspect about it as well. I know Ultra Ego or whatever is supposed to invoke a similar feeling, but I'm hoping we get another Oozaru-esque primal form, maybe from Broly.
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Re: Super has handled new forms far better than Z did

Post by Demon Prince Piccolo » Mon Sep 13, 2021 2:20 pm

BWri wrote: Mon Sep 13, 2021 1:58 pm
Demon Prince Piccolo wrote: Mon Sep 13, 2021 1:02 pm Rather than saying whether or not I prefer transformations in Z or Super (just because I'm not sure I can accurately answer that), I will say that what usually sells any transformation for me is how it's utilized within the story, with appearance as a runner-up. I love the original, rage-filled SSJ because it turned Goku into something truly unrecognizable.

I kinda wish they kept Goku's eyes red to emphasize this more. If there's ever an OVA of the Frieza arc or a DBZ reboot, I hope they go with the red eyes for the first time Goku goes SSJ.
Image
I love SSJ4 for its look, how it ties back to Saiyan roots, and how it was born of love for his granddaughter rather than rage.
I love this aspect about it as well. I know Ultra Ego or whatever is supposed to invoke a similar feeling, but I'm hoping we get another Oozaru-esque primal form, maybe from Broly.
The red eyes look great, especially with the rest of the color scheme for SSJ Goku. I'd love to see that animated. And it wouldn't shock me for Broly to achieve an SSJ4-like state eventually in Super.
The story of DRAGON BALL starts from the moment Goku met Bulma. I don't really mind the Z, so long as it's understood that it's not the true beginning of the story.

I actually prefer the Goku vs Tenshinhan and Goku vs Piccolo Jr. rivalries to the Goku vs Vegeta rivalry.

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Re: Unpopular Opinion- Super has handeled new forms far better than Z did.

Post by SupremeKai25 » Mon Sep 13, 2021 4:03 pm

BWri wrote: Mon Sep 13, 2021 1:13 pm It doesn't really work like that. Being the original grants the SSJ form ... originality.
This doesn't make sense.

So if Super Saiyan Blue was the original form you would say it's original? So shallow.

Super Saiyan is literally just Goku with blonde hair (thus a recolour).

If anything Super Saiyan God is way more detailed and original than Super Saiyan. Since it didn't simply change Goku's hair colour, but also toned down his muscles to give him a more regal feel.

If Super Saiyan wasn't associated to the fight with Frieza and if it wasn't part of the "good old days" of nostalgia I guarantee you that people would be far more critical of it. Look at how many people are critical of those "damned recolours" from Super, even though they change so much more than just the hair colour.

And for the record, your argument about SSB feeling cheap is correct and I even said that in the past, but let's be real a lot of people simply focus on the hair recolour. We see this kind of "criticism" everywhere whenever Super forms are brought up and it's extremely unfair.

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Re: Unpopular Opinion- Super has handeled new forms far better than Z did.

Post by Demon Prince Piccolo » Mon Sep 13, 2021 4:17 pm

SupremeKai25 wrote: Mon Sep 13, 2021 4:03 pm
BWri wrote: Mon Sep 13, 2021 1:13 pm It doesn't really work like that. Being the original grants the SSJ form ... originality.
This doesn't make sense.

So if Super Saiyan Blue was the original form you would say it's original? So shallow.

Super Saiyan is literally just Goku with blonde hair (thus a recolour).

If anything Super Saiyan God is way more detailed and original than Super Saiyan. Since it didn't simply change Goku's hair colour, but also toned down his muscles to give him a more regal feel.

If Super Saiyan wasn't associated to the fight with Frieza and if it wasn't part of the "good old days" of nostalgia I guarantee you that people would be far more critical of it. Look at how many people are critical of those "damned recolours" from Super, even though they change so much more than just the hair colour.
I mean... when SSJ was originally introduced, not only did it grant Goku upturned blonde/golden hair (which was different from his iconic base form hairstyle), but it granted him green eyes and even more massive muscles, plus his personality changed with it. I like the SSJG form, but you could make the case the aura looks like Kaioken.

If Goku's hair was originally Blue in SSJ form, and later we got "SSJ Gold"-or something with the blonde hair, I'm pretty sure fans would still complain about it being a recolor (ie. same hairstyle as the original SSJ Blue in this case). But that isn't the case since the blonde hair was introduced first. Are you try to invalidate the original form, or prop up the Super transformations? Because this logic doesn't really help SSJ or SSJ Blue. For the record, I don't even have a big issue with the Super forms, I'm just trying to understand where you're going with this.
The story of DRAGON BALL starts from the moment Goku met Bulma. I don't really mind the Z, so long as it's understood that it's not the true beginning of the story.

I actually prefer the Goku vs Tenshinhan and Goku vs Piccolo Jr. rivalries to the Goku vs Vegeta rivalry.

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Re: Unpopular Opinion- Super has handeled new forms far better than Z did.

Post by VegettoEX » Mon Sep 13, 2021 4:21 pm

SupremeKai25 wrote: Mon Sep 13, 2021 4:03 pm This doesn't make sense.

So if Super Saiyan Blue was the original form you would say it's original? So shallow.

Super Saiyan is literally just Goku with blonde hair (thus a recolour).

If anything Super Saiyan God is way more detailed and original than Super Saiyan. Since it didn't simply change Goku's hair colour, but also toned down his muscles to give him a more regal feel.

If Super Saiyan wasn't associated to the fight with Frieza and if it wasn't part of the "good old days" of nostalgia I guarantee you that people would be far more critical of it. Look at how many people are critical of those "damned recolours" from Super, even though they change so much more than just the hair colour.
See bolded part. This is super weird. I first wrote disingenuous, but I don't know how openly sneaky you're trying to be here. I'd like to give you the benefit of the doubt.

Goku's hair goes through a transformation into Super Saiyan. It stands up. His silhouette in "base" changes when he becomes Super Saiyan. This is an observable fact (one I'm not sure how you think you're going to get away with denying). Toriyama managed to give the same character THREE absolutely iconic-in-every-sense-of-the-word silhouettes (child, adult, adult Super Saiyan). That's... moderately insane, and nothing short of jaw-droppingly impressive.

"Super Saiyan" is also something that's teased and telegraphed for dozens and dozens of chapters (sorta kinda not really Nappa's line in chapter 204, and then starting with the Namekian elder in chapter 265) before it happens for real in chapter 317.

(The original serialization goes on to do this telegraphing with varying levels of success with the Grade forms and then Super Saiyan 2-proper.)

Meanwhile, Super Saiyan Blue is indeed literally just Super Saiyan hair colored blue (because, well, that's what it was supposed to be originally: Super Saiyan with the power of Super Saiyan God).

Ultra Instinct is the one that's teased and telegraphed for a long period of time, and it's extremely worth noting how the separate "Sign"/"Omen" design wasn't originally part of Toriyama's plan.

(It's also extremely worth talking about how both God and Blue were made for movies that were in all likelihood never intended to be referenced again for some kind of, I dunno, long-running serial story that would both adapt and go beyond them.)

(I like God a lot.)
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Re: Unpopular Opinion- Super has handeled new forms far better than Z did.

Post by SupremeKai25 » Mon Sep 13, 2021 4:25 pm

VegettoEX wrote: Mon Sep 13, 2021 4:21 pm See bolded part. This is super weird. I first wrote disingenuous, but I don't know how openly sneaky you're trying to be here. I'd like to give you the benefit of the doubt.
It is disingenuous but that's my point. The "Recolour" argument used against Super forms is disingenuous because it's not just recoloured hair, there are more changes that are ignored.
Meanwhile, Super Saiyan Blue is indeed literally just Super Saiyan hair colored blue
And with a CGI aura that is completely new for Dragon Ball. That's a distinguishing trait of Super Saiyan Blue, not even the Red form had that kind of aura (it had a different fiery aura).
Demon Prince Piccolo wrote: Mon Sep 13, 2021 4:17 pm
SupremeKai25 wrote: Mon Sep 13, 2021 4:03 pm
BWri wrote: Mon Sep 13, 2021 1:13 pm It doesn't really work like that. Being the original grants the SSJ form ... originality.
This doesn't make sense.

So if Super Saiyan Blue was the original form you would say it's original? So shallow.

Super Saiyan is literally just Goku with blonde hair (thus a recolour).

If anything Super Saiyan God is way more detailed and original than Super Saiyan. Since it didn't simply change Goku's hair colour, but also toned down his muscles to give him a more regal feel.

If Super Saiyan wasn't associated to the fight with Frieza and if it wasn't part of the "good old days" of nostalgia I guarantee you that people would be far more critical of it. Look at how many people are critical of those "damned recolours" from Super, even though they change so much more than just the hair colour.
I mean... when SSJ was originally introduced, not only did it grant Goku upturned blonde/golden hair (which was different from his iconic base form hairstyle), but it granted him green eyes and even more massive muscles, plus his personality changed with it. I like the SSJG form, but you could make the case the aura looks like Kaioken.

If Goku's hair was originally Blue in SSJ form, and later we got "SSJ Gold"-or something with the blonde hair, I'm pretty sure fans would still complain about it being a recolor (ie. same hairstyle as the original SSJ Blue in this case). But that isn't the case since the blonde hair was introduced first. Are you try to invalidate the original form, or prop up the Super transformations? Because this logic doesn't really help SSJ or SSJ Blue. For the record, I don't even have a big issue with the Super forms, I'm just trying to understand where you're going with this.
Ultra Instinct also changes Goku's design massively by giving him weirdly-shaped hair (Omen), different pupil design, somewhat thinner body, a new aura style, etc.

Yet back in the day when Ultra Instinct was first leaked I lost count of how many people complained that it was just a recolour despite all these above changes.

So if people use the "recolour" argument against Super forms (while ignoring all the other details I mentioned), why can't I use it against Super Saiyan?
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Re: Unpopular Opinion- Super has handeled new forms far better than Z did.

Post by DSB » Mon Sep 13, 2021 4:26 pm

VegettoEX wrote: Mon Sep 13, 2021 11:55 am Look, I don't call the shots here; my brain does. That's what I saw.)
you and your brain are the same, if that helps

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Re: Unpopular Opinion- Super has handeled new forms far better than Z did.

Post by Demon Prince Piccolo » Mon Sep 13, 2021 4:46 pm

SupremeKai25 wrote: Mon Sep 13, 2021 4:25 pm Ultra Instinct also changes Goku's design massively by giving him weirdly-shaped hair (Omen), different pupil design, somewhat thinner body, a new aura style, etc.

Yet back in the day when Ultra Instinct was first leaked I lost count of how many people complained that it was just a recolour despite all these above changes.

So if people use the "recolour" argument against Super forms (while ignoring all the other details I mentioned), why can't I use it against Super Saiyan?
I mean, you can, I guess...? But I'm still struggling to see the point. On the same token you're mentioning the differences that make the forms unique. I'm not understanding if you're trying to say all the forms are recolors, or if there are enough differences that they aren't simply recolors. Because if the Super forms aren't recolors, then neither is OG Super Saiyan. If someone says SS Blue is an SSJ recolor, I can understand that at face value because of the hair style staying the exact same as original Super Saiyan, even if there are other differences. I've never seen someone call Ultra Instinct a recolor, but then again I don't really talk Dragon Ball away from this forum.
The story of DRAGON BALL starts from the moment Goku met Bulma. I don't really mind the Z, so long as it's understood that it's not the true beginning of the story.

I actually prefer the Goku vs Tenshinhan and Goku vs Piccolo Jr. rivalries to the Goku vs Vegeta rivalry.

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