Super has handled new forms far better than Z did

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Re: Unpopular Opinion- Super has handeled new forms far better than Z did.

Post by VegettoEX » Mon Sep 13, 2021 5:04 pm

Demon Prince Piccolo wrote: Mon Sep 13, 2021 4:46 pm I mean, you can, I guess...? But I'm still struggling to see the point.
Agreed. Don't understand this person's approach whatsoever. Have a real, genuine conversation or don't.
Demon Prince Piccolo wrote: Mon Sep 13, 2021 4:46 pmI've never seen someone call Ultra Instinct a recolor, but then again I don't really talk Dragon Ball away from this forum.
This is actually a fairly common criticism of the finalized Ultra Instinct, particularly in light of Akira Toriyama's design for it being his character design for Super Saiyan God... with the hair recolored (and very, very, very minor additional adjustments):

(Apologies for the real quick photo grab here)

Image
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Re: Unpopular Opinion- Super has handeled new forms far better than Z did.

Post by Grimlock » Mon Sep 13, 2021 5:30 pm

Demon Prince Piccolo wrote: Mon Sep 13, 2021 4:17 pmI like the SSJG form, but you could make the case the aura looks like Kaioken.
You could, but you would be wrong. Kaio-Ken's aura looks nothing like Super Saiyan God's aura.


Unless you're talking about its anime's visual in the retelling, which personally I'd say it's a cheap and ugly one.
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Re: Unpopular Opinion- Super has handeled new forms far better than Z did.

Post by BWri » Mon Sep 13, 2021 6:25 pm

SupremeKai25 wrote: Mon Sep 13, 2021 4:03 pm
BWri wrote: Mon Sep 13, 2021 1:13 pm It doesn't really work like that. Being the original grants the SSJ form ... originality.
This doesn't make sense.

So if Super Saiyan Blue was the original form you would say it's original? So shallow.
In a nutshell I'm just saying, its the first one so it deserves points for originality, especially since everything that comes after simply attempts to or just blatantly replicates it. It had nothing to pull from which by definition makes it original.

I'll try to elaborate better. SSJ came at a time when there weren't many similar sort of transformations. I'm talking within the story and outside of it in the medium. Between SSJ and Frieza's various forms, I have a gut feeling that these two is what brought prominence to the transforming hero and transforming villain trope we see proliferate so many combat manga these days. It's the same with the series. Most villains after Freeza focus on some sort of transforming gimmick with multiple steps until they reach a "final" form. And most forms after SSJ seem to try to hit similar notes.

Even if Toriyama-san was inspired by Saint Seiya's golden armor or something, it would still make SSJ more original than SSB since SSB is a direct copy of SSJ's design.
Super Saiyan is literally just Goku with blonde hair (thus a recolour).
The recolor criticism mainly came from SSB being a facsimile of SSJ except with blue hair. I don't remember SSG getting called a recolor, though I remember the criticism of that being that it was too similar to Kaioken.

But I would say that you are not entirely wrong, I think its disengenious to call SSJ a recolor of Goku's classic design (base form). The hair is another shape altogether, just look at that pic I posted above. And there is a clear change to Goku's bulk and demeanor. With that, there's no other form to compare it to at the time so it can't be a recolor.
If anything Super Saiyan God is way more detailed and original than Super Saiyan. Since it didn't simply change Goku's hair colour, but also toned down his muscles to give him a more regal feel.
I'd say they're about the same. Where SSG makes Goku lean, SSJ makes him more bulky. Where SSJ makes Goku fierce, SSG gives him a more childlike expression. Both change eye color, hair color, and aura. Out of all those things, I like SSG's aura better

I started as a critic of SSG like many other people, but over the years I see the potential of the form. I wish it were expanded upon moreso, instead of SSB. SSG has a natural design to it that I like. I just don't like how it looks plastic-y without the aura.
If Super Saiyan wasn't associated to the fight with Frieza and if it wasn't part of the "good old days" of nostalgia I guarantee you that people would be far more critical of it. Look at how many people are critical of those "damned recolours" from Super, even though they change so much more than just the hair colour.
The moments come part and parcel with the form itself. If it accomplishes cool stuff, we're going to treat it as cool. If it creates shock and awe, that moment sticks with it. After all these years, SSJ is the weakest form now but it still holds weight with the fans due to the moments it is associated with and a perceived Dragon Ball golden age with most of us western fans. So you're probably right.

I will say that the SSJ design is much more natural than the SSB design. Blonde is a natural hair color so even without an explanation it just, kind of, works. But with Blue I'm always wondering, "What the hell makes their hair so damn blue?" Something about it takes me out of the story, moreso when it was first created. I don't have that problem with the manga ... but its black and white so .... yeah. But I think with Blue overall wouldn't have been so widely accepted because of that even if it were introduced first. IDK, the arua could have sold the form, but I still think there'd be some resistance compared to SSJ so I don't think it would've been as popular. That's my spicy take, I guess.
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Re: Unpopular Opinion- Super has handeled new forms far better than Z did.

Post by Demon Prince Piccolo » Mon Sep 13, 2021 6:49 pm

Grimlock wrote: Mon Sep 13, 2021 5:30 pm
Demon Prince Piccolo wrote: Mon Sep 13, 2021 4:17 pmI like the SSJG form, but you could make the case the aura looks like Kaioken.
You could, but you would be wrong. Kaio-Ken's aura looks nothing like Super Saiyan God's aura.


Unless you're talking about its anime's visual in the retelling, which personally I'd say it's a cheap and ugly one.
Right. Which is why I'm also saying SSJ isn't simply a recolor of Goku's base form lol. I wasn't saying what I actually think regarding SSG/Kaioken, just throwing out something I've heard said before, just to lend some credence to my main point. Idk that the criticism was the auras being similar now that I think on it, but rather that SSG looks like Goku does when he's using Kaioken.
Last edited by Demon Prince Piccolo on Mon Sep 13, 2021 7:01 pm, edited 3 times in total.
The story of DRAGON BALL starts from the moment Goku met Bulma. I don't really mind the Z, so long as it's understood that it's not the true beginning of the story.

I actually prefer the Goku vs Tenshinhan and Goku vs Piccolo Jr. rivalries to the Goku vs Vegeta rivalry.

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Re: Unpopular Opinion- Super has handeled new forms far better than Z did.

Post by Demon Prince Piccolo » Mon Sep 13, 2021 6:55 pm

VegettoEX wrote: Mon Sep 13, 2021 5:04 pm]
This is actually a fairly common criticism of the finalized Ultra Instinct, particularly in light of Akira Toriyama's design for it being his character design for Super Saiyan God... with the hair recolored (and very, very, very minor additional adjustments):

(Apologies for the real quick photo grab here)

Image
Ah, I have some vague memories of this now. I suppose the case could be made that it's a recolor; I just see UI being such a different state altogether in how it's depicted, especially in the anime, so that criticism never crossed my mind. :)
The story of DRAGON BALL starts from the moment Goku met Bulma. I don't really mind the Z, so long as it's understood that it's not the true beginning of the story.

I actually prefer the Goku vs Tenshinhan and Goku vs Piccolo Jr. rivalries to the Goku vs Vegeta rivalry.

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Re: Unpopular Opinion- Super has handeled new forms far better than Z did.

Post by Yuli Ban » Mon Sep 13, 2021 9:03 pm

VegettoEX wrote: Mon Sep 13, 2021 5:04 pm
Demon Prince Piccolo wrote: Mon Sep 13, 2021 4:46 pm I mean, you can, I guess...? But I'm still struggling to see the point.
Agreed. Don't understand this person's approach whatsoever. Have a real, genuine conversation or don't.
Demon Prince Piccolo wrote: Mon Sep 13, 2021 4:46 pmI've never seen someone call Ultra Instinct a recolor, but then again I don't really talk Dragon Ball away from this forum.
This is actually a fairly common criticism of the finalized Ultra Instinct, particularly in light of Akira Toriyama's design for it being his character design for Super Saiyan God... with the hair recolored (and very, very, very minor additional adjustments):

(Apologies for the real quick photo grab here)

Image
Indeed, looking at the original leak of SSG from ~2012, it seems like Super Saiyan God was originally designed in a way that would be recycled for Ultra Instinct:
Image
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Re: Super has handled new forms far better than Z did

Post by Duo » Tue Sep 14, 2021 9:18 am

Clearly, this means SSG is Ultra Instinct Pro-Omen. Like that first fart before a series of monsters that results in a bathroom emergency.

For real though, DBS has played around with some decent idea's (mainly UI), but the transformations just tend to be color swaps or maybe add/remove pupils.

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Re: Unpopular Opinion- Super has handeled new forms far better than Z did.

Post by Grimlock » Tue Sep 14, 2021 1:06 pm

Demon Prince Piccolo wrote: Mon Sep 13, 2021 6:49 pmRight. Which is why I'm also saying SSJ isn't simply a recolor of Goku's base form lol. I wasn't saying what I actually think regarding SSG/Kaioken, just throwing out something I've heard said before, just to lend some credence to my main point. Idk that the criticism was the auras being similar now that I think on it, but rather that SSG looks like Goku does when he's using Kaioken.
Ah, then I apologize, I missed the point.
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Re: Super has handled new forms far better than Z did

Post by blacksymbiote » Thu Sep 23, 2021 6:00 pm

I might agree if the forms didn't feel so rushed. SSJG is barely used before SSB comes along off-screen and already trained to handle. Ultra Instinct is the only form given any real analysis.

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