So what's the fandom's consensus on Grade 3 Trunks being stronger than Perfect Cell?

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BLAST!PROCESSOR
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Re: So what's the fandom's consensus on Grade 3 Trunks being stronger than Perfect Cell?

Post by BLAST!PROCESSOR » Sat Dec 04, 2021 8:02 pm

ankokudaishogun wrote: Sat Dec 04, 2021 7:50 am
BLAST!PROCESSOR wrote: Sat Dec 04, 2021 4:49 am Plus in DBS, Caulifla goes from SSJ (Grade 4) to Grade 3
She doesn't. She was in Grade-1 then powered-up to Grade-3.
Goku tells her she'd better to master SS=reaching Grade-4 instead.
Wrong. Goku tells her to master SSJ2, not SSJ. Goku wouldn't tell her to master SSJ2 if she hadn't mastered SSJ considering Goku wants her to take it step by step. Caulifla was a Grade 4 SSJ and went to Grade 3 to power up.

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Re: So what's the fandom's consensus on Grade 3 Trunks being stronger than Perfect Cell?

Post by BLAST!PROCESSOR » Sat Dec 04, 2021 8:12 pm

Seekeroftruth wrote: Sat Dec 04, 2021 4:37 pm
BLAST!PROCESSOR wrote: Sat Dec 04, 2021 4:49 am
Seekeroftruth wrote: Thu Dec 02, 2021 7:30 pm I will explain exactly what went on with grade 3. Trunks did manage to increase his speed and strength beyond grade 2 however, the energy consumption and overall muscle mass makes grade 3 speed increase become retarded so much so that it does not increase in proportion to the strength.

It is for this reason, that android 16 did not make any comment of trunks being slower in his grade 3 form compared to his grade 2 state. Now with respect to Cell, he picked a level that would surpass his grade 2 and compete with grade 3 in strength. However, cell soon picked up on and was disappointed when he realized that trunk's grade 3 did not increase his speed in same amount to keep with cell. Thus, cell makes a comment of him inflating his little muscles and not actually powering up to match him really.
Umm. So, first. Grade 3 Trunks only managed to increase his speed but had a decrease in speed. We can tell because he became slower than he was as Grade 2 and Goku still puts Grade 1 above Grade 3 as a fighting form. Plus in DBS, Caulifla goes from SSJ (Grade 4) to Grade 3 Goku says that she traded speed for power so we can confirm that Grade 3 is slower than SSJ. Cell was weaker than Trunks altogether so he stayed suppressed but with only enough speed to dodge him never letting Trunks hit him. If Cell could've taken the hits he would've like he did with Vegeta Goku and Gohan who were all weaker than him. (This isn't counting anything in the anime.)
Your sentence structure is confusing. I assume english is not your first language so i will give you some time to change your response.
English is my first language and you can tell by the previous post. I just had 1 typo. Relax. The first "speed" was supposed be "power" and put a "when" before "Caulifla." I'll give you the "fixed" version. I'll also put in some more commas to help you understand in case you couldn't before. (I often leave those out 'cause most people can still get the message on the internet but I shouldn't have assumed that. My bad.) Either way, not much changes.

"Umm. So, first. Grade 3 Trunks only managed to increase his power but had a decrease in speed. We can tell because he became slower than when he was as Grade 2 and Goku still puts Grade 1 above Grade 3 as a fighting form. Plus in DBS, when Caulifla goes from SSJ (Grade 4) to Grade 3, Goku says that she traded speed for power so we can confirm that Grade 3 is slower than SSJ. Cell was weaker than Trunks altogether so he stayed suppressed but with only enough speed to dodge him, never letting Trunks hit him. If Cell could've taken the hits, he would've, like he did with Vegeta, Goku and Gohan who were all weaker than him. (This isn't counting anything in the anime.)

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Re: So what's the fandom's consensus on Grade 3 Trunks being stronger than Perfect Cell?

Post by BootyCheeksJohnson » Sun Dec 05, 2021 3:41 am

Does Trunks' actual power level in that moment even mean anything? Ultimately every power level in Dragon Ball equals what would be most exciting for the story while also providing drama between chapters.
The Saiyan arc is a perfect example of this thought process. The Earth's fighters are weaker than Nappa who's weaker than Vegeta, but oh crap one of their minions was sneaky enough to kill Yamcha. The goal is to wait for Goku so they can beat the Saiyans as a team. The actual power levels of Tenshinhan, Piccolo, and Krillin don't actually matter because if any of them get the killing blow on Nappa, that would make Vegeta less threatening because he's stronger than Nappa. And, it would make waiting for Goku anticlimactic.
That's not to say Toriyama always does a good job with this, but that seems to be the general thought process behind the rising stakes in Dragon Ball.
We need a Steve Simmons retranslation of the manga.

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Re: So what's the fandom's consensus on Grade 3 Trunks being stronger than Perfect Cell?

Post by BLAST!PROCESSOR » Sun Dec 05, 2021 4:41 am

BootyCheeksJohnson wrote: Sun Dec 05, 2021 3:41 am Does Trunks' actual power level in that moment even mean anything? Ultimately every power level in Dragon Ball equals what would be most exciting for the story while also providing drama between chapters.
The Saiyan arc is a perfect example of this thought process. The Earth's fighters are weaker than Nappa who's weaker than Vegeta, but oh crap one of their minions was sneaky enough to kill Yamcha. The goal is to wait for Goku so they can beat the Saiyans as a team. The actual power levels of Tenshinhan, Piccolo, and Krillin don't actually matter because if any of them get the killing blow on Nappa, that would make Vegeta less threatening because he's stronger than Nappa. And, it would make waiting for Goku anticlimactic.
That's not to say Toriyama always does a good job with this, but that seems to be the general thought process behind the rising stakes in Dragon Ball.
Well I don't know if you're talking about the scouter based power levels or just power levels when it comes to general power scaling but it is relevant to the subject of the thread. Also why wouldn't go as far as to say what you're saying since you could apply that logic to not only the entirety of Dragon Ball or every story since any needs peoples skills or (in the fighting shonen sense,) power to be where it is for the story to work the way the creator(s) want it too. They kind of don't matter in the "scouter sense" since you only need to know who's stronger than who (which is why Toriyama likely chose to get rid off them) but in the general power scaling sense they just keep track of where exactly a person's power is and so power increases are never to absurd and can be tracked so they do kind of mater a little bit. Either way, again, Grade 3 Trunk's power was relevant to the thread's topic and is part of the Grade 4 = Grade 1 vs Grade 4 > Grade 3 debate as well so it's relevance can't really be denied.

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Re: So what's the fandom's consensus on Grade 3 Trunks being stronger than Perfect Cell?

Post by Seekeroftruth » Sun Dec 05, 2021 12:09 pm

BLAST!PROCESSOR wrote: Sat Dec 04, 2021 8:12 pm
Seekeroftruth wrote: Sat Dec 04, 2021 4:37 pm
BLAST!PROCESSOR wrote: Sat Dec 04, 2021 4:49 am

Umm. So, first. Grade 3 Trunks only managed to increase his speed but had a decrease in speed. We can tell because he became slower than he was as Grade 2 and Goku still puts Grade 1 above Grade 3 as a fighting form. Plus in DBS, Caulifla goes from SSJ (Grade 4) to Grade 3 Goku says that she traded speed for power so we can confirm that Grade 3 is slower than SSJ. Cell was weaker than Trunks altogether so he stayed suppressed but with only enough speed to dodge him never letting Trunks hit him. If Cell could've taken the hits he would've like he did with Vegeta Goku and Gohan who were all weaker than him. (This isn't counting anything in the anime.)
Your sentence structure is confusing. I assume english is not your first language so i will give you some time to change your response.
English is my first language and you can tell by the previous post. I just had 1 typo. Relax. The first "speed" was supposed be "power" and put a "when" before "Caulifla." I'll give you the "fixed" version. I'll also put in some more commas to help you understand in case you couldn't before. (I often leave those out 'cause most people can still get the message on the internet but I shouldn't have assumed that. My bad.) Either way, not much changes.

"Umm. So, first. Grade 3 Trunks only managed to increase his power but had a decrease in speed. We can tell because he became slower than when he was as Grade 2 and Goku still puts Grade 1 above Grade 3 as a fighting form. Plus in DBS, when Caulifla goes from SSJ (Grade 4) to Grade 3, Goku says that she traded speed for power so we can confirm that Grade 3 is slower than SSJ. Cell was weaker than Trunks altogether so he stayed suppressed but with only enough speed to dodge him, never letting Trunks hit him. If Cell could've taken the hits, he would've, like he did with Vegeta, Goku and Gohan who were all weaker than him. (This isn't counting anything in the anime.)
This is a poor argument. Goku never says grade 2 is superior to grade 3. He says that grade 3 has an apparent weakness that would not do the job of defeating cell.

There are more argument to suggest grade 3 making you faster than grade 2. We know this from Android 18, who comments that trunks has become stronger than vegeta both in speed and power when fighting Perfect Cell.

If you are making a claim with DBS you need to post the clip you are referring towards or else your argument will be ignored.

Cell overall boost after transformation put him above grade 2 just in his initial state. He then powered up to match his strength to that of grade 3 trunk but was disappointed in trunk's speed not keeping up with his. And yes, we did see cell take hits from Grade 3 trunks, they were roughly equal in the fight with cell testing trunk's abilities throughout the battle to see if he could give him a challenge.

Again, i don't expect anything to change. DB fans tend to be rather hard headed and stuck in their own head cannon. I mean when one of the lead designers on the show outright says that kid buu is weaker than Super buu (gohan absorbed) and we have fans arguing with him on his twitter to say he is wrong then we know that an internet debate will never change anything.

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Re: So what's the fandom's consensus on Grade 3 Trunks being stronger than Perfect Cell?

Post by TobyS » Sun Dec 05, 2021 3:08 pm

The other issue is of course Grade 3 trunks compared to Cell Post ROSAT second visit.
That'd give us an idea of scaling.

Do they say the Cell who fights Goku was stronger than the Cell who fought Trunks.
Yamcha almost certainly did not cheat on Bulma:
He was afraid of Women, Bulma was the flirty one.
Yamcha wanted to get married (it was his gonna be his wish)
He suggested they settle down in the Trunks saga.
Alternate future Trunks is not a reliable source.
Toriyama wanted new SSJ Kids and not make new characters.

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Re: So what's the fandom's consensus on Grade 3 Trunks being stronger than Perfect Cell?

Post by BLAST!PROCESSOR » Mon Dec 06, 2021 6:16 pm

Seekeroftruth wrote: Sun Dec 05, 2021 12:09 pm
BLAST!PROCESSOR wrote: Sat Dec 04, 2021 8:12 pm
Seekeroftruth wrote: Sat Dec 04, 2021 4:37 pm

Your sentence structure is confusing. I assume english is not your first language so i will give you some time to change your response.
English is my first language and you can tell by the previous post. I just had 1 typo. Relax. The first "speed" was supposed be "power" and put a "when" before "Caulifla." I'll give you the "fixed" version. I'll also put in some more commas to help you understand in case you couldn't before. (I often leave those out 'cause most people can still get the message on the internet but I shouldn't have assumed that. My bad.) Either way, not much changes.

"Umm. So, first. Grade 3 Trunks only managed to increase his power but had a decrease in speed. We can tell because he became slower than when he was as Grade 2 and Goku still puts Grade 1 above Grade 3 as a fighting form. Plus in DBS, when Caulifla goes from SSJ (Grade 4) to Grade 3, Goku says that she traded speed for power so we can confirm that Grade 3 is slower than SSJ. Cell was weaker than Trunks altogether so he stayed suppressed but with only enough speed to dodge him, never letting Trunks hit him. If Cell could've taken the hits, he would've, like he did with Vegeta, Goku and Gohan who were all weaker than him. (This isn't counting anything in the anime.)
This is a poor argument. Goku never says grade 2 is superior to grade 3. He says that grade 3 has an apparent weakness that would not do the job of defeating cell.

There are more argument to suggest grade 3 making you faster than grade 2. We know this from Android 18, who comments that trunks has become stronger than vegeta both in speed and power when fighting Perfect Cell.

If you are making a claim with DBS you need to post the clip you are referring towards or else your argument will be ignored.

Cell overall boost after transformation put him above grade 2 just in his initial state. He then powered up to match his strength to that of grade 3 trunk but was disappointed in trunk's speed not keeping up with his. And yes, we did see cell take hits from Grade 3 trunks, they were roughly equal in the fight with cell testing trunk's abilities throughout the battle to see if he could give him a challenge.

Again, i don't expect anything to change. DB fans tend to be rather hard headed and stuck in their own head cannon. I mean when one of the lead designers on the show outright says that kid buu is weaker than Super buu (gohan absorbed) and we have fans arguing with him on his twitter to say he is wrong then we know that an internet debate will never change anything.
No, listen, pay attention.

I never said Goku said Grade 2 was superior to Grade 3. I SAID Goku thought that Grade 1 was the most balanced and therefore better fighting form. Therefore it is logically better than (one could even say superior to) Grade 3 which was deemed unusable.

Grade 3 has been specifically stated in every guide to make the user SLOWER than they were before. Cell even says that while Trunks got stronger (from Grade 2) as he would be not match for him because his speed was not up to snuff. Vegeta only ever fought in Grade 2 which is stated to make you faster and stronger than Grade 1. Vegeta never used Grade 3 and because he it would've been useless. Therefore logically. Grade 1> Grade 2 > Grade 3 in terms of overall efficiency, usability and balance. Here's just one example from Daizenshuu 2. The same thing's repeated in Daizenshuu 7, 10, El Manga Legendario and more but that's not necessary.
https://imgur.com/gallery/3Y7MEZ0

It's really not hard to search up Goku vs Caulifla on youtube but whatever.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XAcpgCF ... ipsandMore

Again, I'm not talking about the anime FILLER fight, I'm talking about what only happened in the Manga. The anime went of script and contradicted the point by not having Cell doge all the hits like in the manga. I'd ask about you needing to post your vid and ignoring this but that's besides the point since it's irrelevant to begin with. I'll post the final again.
https://imgur.com/gallery/T4s28Lr

Headcanon? Dude please you didn't even read my first or second post with all the links and picture of the argument. You cleaerly don't know what you're talking about at all. Yeah Buuhan's stronger but this simply cannot be compared to me arguing like someone who mistakenly thinks Kid Buu is stronger.

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Re: So what's the fandom's consensus on Grade 3 Trunks being stronger than Perfect Cell?

Post by BLAST!PROCESSOR » Mon Dec 06, 2021 6:19 pm

TobyS wrote: Sun Dec 05, 2021 3:08 pm The other issue is of course Grade 3 trunks compared to Cell Post ROSAT second visit.
That'd give us an idea of scaling.

Do they say the Cell who fights Goku was stronger than the Cell who fought Trunks.
Well, I went over this already but again it doesn't matter power Cell was at since Cell said Trunks was stronger than him which would apply to his entire perfect state and the Cell that fights Goku hasn't gotten any stronger in the gap between then and the Cell games. He does let out more of his true power but Grade 3 surpassed that and was unusable.

More on this
https://imgur.com/gallery/T4s28Lr

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Re: So what's the fandom's consensus on Grade 3 Trunks being stronger than Perfect Cell?

Post by Godo » Mon Dec 13, 2021 8:11 am

For me it's as simple as Trunks being stronger in his Grade 3 form just until Cell shows him that he can do the same thing (which leads to Trunks' forfeit), and that's pretty much what the message was about.
It could be possible that Trunks SSJ Grade 3 power even was superior to Cell's full power, but that still doesn't matter, since Cell could use his own version of Grade 3 and crush Trunks.
The scene also served a secondary purpose, as in showing Cell's desperation when he uses the same form again against SSJ2 Gohan, although not long earlier acting high and mighty about Trunks' choice to use Grade 3.

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