So what's the fandom's consensus on Grade 3 Trunks being stronger than Perfect Cell?

Discussion, generally of an in-universe nature, regarding any aspect of the franchise (including movies, spin-offs, etc.) such as: techniques, character relationships, internal back-history, its universe, and more.

Moderators: General Help, Kanzenshuu Staff

User avatar
BLAST!PROCESSOR
Newbie
Posts: 29
Joined: Fri Nov 02, 2018 12:12 pm

So what's the fandom's consensus on Grade 3 Trunks being stronger than Perfect Cell?

Post by BLAST!PROCESSOR » Sun Nov 21, 2021 2:23 am

This is gonna be a bit long so TL:DR at the bottom.

Now I reeeaally don't wanna get in to the whole Grade 4 debate and whether it's equal to Grade 1 or Grade 3 though I feel like it might be inevitable considering what I think working best in line with Grade 4 = Grade 1. (I'll leave a link for the things I sight at the bottom of the post.) See I always considered Grade 3 Trunks to be stronger than (regular/non-buff) Perfect Cell, even at full power but recently I've seen a lot people seem to believe opposite. So why do I think Trunks is stronger? This is simply because Trunks is pretty much stated to be stronger than Cell by himself, Piccolo and even Cell by his own admission.

In the chapter "The Balance of Power" it's pretty much explained with Goku's words mirroring Trunks' battle that the problem is that While Trunks is stronger, he has no speed, which is why Trunks can't win. (In other words the writing/narrative is telling us Grade 3 (Trunks) is stronger than Cell until Cell assumes the same form. The confusion comes in when Trunks is awed by Grade 4 Goku's power up and Krillin states that he's surpassed all of them. I thought it was already forgone conclusion that Grade 3 wasn't be considered here because it was useless power and practically a renounced form. Everyone would know about it since Trunks exposited everything to Goku and Gohan when they came out of the Time Chamber in front of everyone. Isn't it most consistent if they're just that awed that Goku's that strong in just his SSJ (Grade 4) state rather than his power surpassing that of Grade 3 Trunks' (because he can now use the constantly output the full power of the form like he never could before due to achieving Grade 4)?

I say this because Grade 3 Trunks being weaker than Cell really doesn't make any sense in the full context of the story because 1, it would contradict the narrative for the message of "being stronger than the opponent means nothing if you can't hit them" if Trunks was both weaker AND slower making it no different than Vegeta's match in reality. 2, This is never depicted to ever be a lie or a suspicious statement considering the story (not just in DB's but in general) will normally make sure that it's either clearly or subtly spelled out for the audience rather than just breezing right passed it and not being mentioned or referenced by a character or narrator when a previous statement is later proven false.

3, It would already kind of be out of character for Cell to lie like this. Sure he's been deceptive to 18 in order to absorb her with the 17 illusion but other than that he's literally never lied and definitely never had a reason to either. Especially if he was already stronger than his opponent. 4, it's really inconsistent with the depictions in the story since Cell is actually shocked when Trunks goes Grade 3 (as we see in the story and is stated in El Manga Legendario 37 and the Trunks TV anime comic that gives us SSJ Grades 1-5) which he never reacts to like that again aside from Gohan who did surpass him; not even Goku. Daizenshuu 2 even states that the only reason Trunks lost was because of his lack of speed too.

So what I would like to know is if there are any clear(er)-cut statements in any guidebooks that say either Trunks was stronger than Cell or that Cell was stronger than Trunks? I know there's a Dragon Book guide series that came out with the Dragon Box sets. Does anyone have Volume 4 or 5 (or any volume) since I'm pretty sure those would cover Vegeta's Grade 2 (ep155), Trunks Grade 3 (ep162) and fight withing Cell (ep163-164) along with Grade 4 Goku and Gohan coming out (ep186) in Volume 4, then Goku going "Full Power" against Cell (ep177-179) and then quitting (ep180) in Volume 5 when it comes to the episode descriptions. That's mainly what I'm looking for since I don't know about any other obscure guides or V-Jump statements or anything that might've been missed in a main guide. Even If they don't say anything on it, it'd be at least good to confirm that. Grade 2, 3, 4, and SSJFP stuff might be related to it which is why I ask.


(These next two paragraphs can be skipped if you don't care about the Grade 4 power thing.)

I know it'll probably be a thing so I guess I'll address the whole Grade 4 power thing now. So there's still the whole "Grade 3 is 10x stronger" statement from EML which I honestly thing is (and is more consistent as) a hyperbolic statement though if we were to take that literally I'm pretty sure we'd have to take Zamasu saying SSJ2 Goku increasing his power by "tens of times" would contradict that. There's
DBS and the whole Cabba vs Vegeta fight that makes it seem like Grade > Grade 1 at face value but considering Vegeta was actually sweating and gradually putting less effort into fighting Cabba it just meant Grade 1 ran out quickly. I also think that (Future Trunk's and mainly) Caulifla's usage of Grade 3 in Super already prove it Grade 4 to be weaker than Grade 3. There is that one guide that one Spanish guide that says Grade 4 = Grade 3 in terms of power too but it also states that SSJ is Oozaru power without transforming so it's a 10x boost too and depicts and describes LSSJ Broly as a Grade 3 so I don't think it's too reliable.

Plus it also states Goku first transformed into when fighting Cell, not leaving the time chamber. This is similar to D2 saying SSJ Full Power debuted in Volume 34 when that's when Goku fought Cell and not Volume 33 when Goku and Gohan came out of the time chamber. So clearly those definitions of "Super Saiyan Full Power" are something different than the concept of Grade 4 though D10 seems to retcon that. Plus if we consider it that by the time D7 came out Grade 4 wasn't acknowledged as another SSJ form just like Grades 2 and 3 then it can be assumed it wasn't any different than SSJ just like how the story depicted it since D7 doesn't really miss the tiniest detail, making Grade 4 part of SSJ and thus a 50x boost as repeated in Perfect Files and the Super Exciting Guide. Though as far as the original story goes, Goku only states that the goal of Grade 4 is to remove the strain of Grade 1 and when Trunks asks if there's so new (stronger) transformation Vegeta calls him an idiot for even thinking that and what the form is is later reiterated to be what Goku said it would be and what most of the guide books say about Grade 4 (and SSJFP when it refers to Grade 4 and not it's own thing).


List of Pictures in Order:

1. Trunks TV Anime Comic and Herms translation, EML 37
- Trunks esconde un poder que sorprender al propio Cell. Sin embargo, es una transformación imperfecta cuya falta de velocidad da al traste con su fuerza. Vegeta lo sabia y por eso le prohibió que se transformara.
"Trunks hides a power that will surprise Cell himself. However, it is an imperfect transformation whose lack of speed destroys its strength. Vegeta knew it and that's why he forbade it to be transformed."
https://imgur.com/gallery/q7bVovZ

2. Daizenshuu 2 adventure history Volume 33 Trunks lost to Cell because of speed deficiency
https://imgur.com/gallery/biEkoFM

3. Zamasu saying SSJ2 Goku increasing his power by "tens of times"
https://imgur.com/gallery/fpfBxxm

4. Vegeta being Cabba's equal and actually sweating then gradually putting less effort into fighting Cabba
https://imgur.com/gallery/XECkFUy

5. Spanish Guide that says SSJ = 10x, Broly was a Grade 3, SSJFP = G3
- Todo el poder saiyan se multiplica por diez (sin tener que convertirse en Ohzaru)
"All saiyan power is multiplied by ten (without having to turn into Oozaru)."
- Cuando Broly se enfrentó a Gokuh por primera vez, también estaba en este estado de poder.
"When Broly first faced Goku, he was also in this state of power."
- Por fin llegmamos al último estadio antes del segundo nivel. Para poder aumentar el nivel de super saiyan y no menguar en ninguna habilidad, se necesita concentrar toda la energía. Para lograrlo hay que entrenar no sólo el cuerpo, sino también la mente. Así, obtenemos todo el poder del super saiyan san daikai sin deformaciones, consiguiendo más fuerza, agilidad, rapidez y reflejos. Este estado fue alcanzado por Goku cuando se enfrentó con Perfect Cell en su particular torneo.
"We finally reached the last stage before the second level. In order to increase the level of Super Saiyan and not decrease in any skill, it is necessary to concentrate all the energy. To achieve this you have to train not only the body, but also the mind. Thus, we obtain all the power of the Super Saiyan Grade 3 without deformations, achieving more strength, agility, speed and reflexes. This state was reached by Goku when he faced Perfect Cell in his particular tournament."
https://imgur.com/gallery/uhj1s5c

6. Daizenshuu 2 SSJFP entry
https://imgur.com/gallery/bbYffgi

7. Daizenshuu 10 SSJFP retcon(? or context addition?)
https://imgur.com/gallery/GYGhXw8

8. Herms strength checker original dialogue
https://imgur.com/gallery/JqTD4VE


TL:DR: What do we think about G3 Trunks being stronger than Perfect Cell. I think it makes the most sense (in the context of the story). Are there any direct/definitive guidebook statements on this (other than Daizenshuu 2)? What does the Dragon Book guide series (or any other guide) say anything on it?

User avatar
Galan007
Regular
Posts: 666
Joined: Sat Oct 11, 2014 9:34 pm

Re: So what's the fandom's consensus on Grade 3 Trunks being stronger than Perfect Cell?

Post by Galan007 » Mon Nov 22, 2021 9:14 am

Cell was also heavily suppressed when he fought Trunks -- so any comparisons between their powers at the time need to take that into consideration.

Cell never displayed his full power until SS2 Gohan entered the fray.

User avatar
BLAST!PROCESSOR
Newbie
Posts: 29
Joined: Fri Nov 02, 2018 12:12 pm

Re: So what's the fandom's consensus on Grade 3 Trunks being stronger than Perfect Cell?

Post by BLAST!PROCESSOR » Mon Nov 22, 2021 6:05 pm

Galan007 wrote: Mon Nov 22, 2021 9:14 am Cell was also heavily suppressed when he fought Trunks -- so any comparisons between their powers at the time need to take that into consideration.

Cell never displayed his full power until SS2 Gohan entered the fray.
Quick addition: It makes no sense for Cell's "stronger than me" statement to apply to only his suppressed version because that's not neither how words, context or logic works at all. If he meant that, he either would've said that or alluded to it. No body in Dragon Ball has ever said somebody was stronger than them and had that not actually be true unless they had another transformation (a.k.a. literally another state of being in which their power has a new ceiling). Frieza doesn't say that Piccolo's stronger than him when Piccolo starts winning against Frieza. Frieza says that Piccolo's been underestimating him (because he was holding back). It's juts not consistent for Dragon Ball or in terms for normal speech for a statement to be made like that. Plus, Cell never really does that nor did he ever have a reason to each time he had the opportunity. Like, if I say "that person is faster than me" while I'm walking, does that mean they're only faster than me when I'm walking because I said it while I was walking? No. Obviously not. That's just logic.

So again, I think it makes more sense if every at the Cell Games was just shocked because Grade 4 Goku was that strong but just as a SSJ and the closest to Cell's full power at the time and because Grade 3 wasn't taken into consideration being ruled out as a renounced and inefficient form with a lot more power that can't be used. Just look at the consistency of Cell's reactions. Completely unphased by Grade 4 Goku's full power, a little weary of Grade 4 Gohan's power, surprised by Grade 3 Trunks' power upon transforming (before further powering up) and then shocked and trembling at SSJ2 Gohan's power. Not to mention again the multiple guidebooks stating the reaction of Cell to Trunks being genuine and enough to surprised/startled. Contextually and logically it makes more sense for Grade 3 Trunks to be stronger than Cell unless you cherry-pick the context (with you do it seriously or just for the fun of another interpretation of the story in a "death of the author" sort of way.

9. Cell's power reactions: Grade 4 Goku < Grade 4 Gohan < Perfect Cell < Grade 3 Trunks < SSJ2 Gohan
https://imgur.com/gallery/T4s28Lr

User avatar
BLAST!PROCESSOR
Newbie
Posts: 29
Joined: Fri Nov 02, 2018 12:12 pm

Re: So what's the fandom's consensus on Grade 3 Trunks being stronger than Perfect Cell?

Post by BLAST!PROCESSOR » Mon Nov 22, 2021 6:25 pm

Galan007 wrote: Mon Nov 22, 2021 9:14 am Cell was also heavily suppressed when he fought Trunks -- so any comparisons between their powers at the time need to take that into consideration.

Cell never displayed his full power until SS2 Gohan entered the fray.
Sorry, but I accidently left out that last bit with the full context since I thought it was sent but the site stopped me from posting too fast after the initial post. But even then I already kind of responded with the whole, "if I say "that person is faster than me" while I'm walking, does that mean they're only faster than me when I'm walking because I said it while I was walking? No." argument in case the second post was too long.

User avatar
Galan007
Regular
Posts: 666
Joined: Sat Oct 11, 2014 9:34 pm

Re: So what's the fandom's consensus on Grade 3 Trunks being stronger than Perfect Cell?

Post by Galan007 » Mon Nov 22, 2021 8:55 pm

It was only noted that Trunks was stronger than Cell while he [Cell] was still heavily suppressing his power... So said comments would not be applicable to a full power Cell, because none of the Z Fighters had any indication of what a 100% Cell was capable of at the time.

Again, Cell only used his full power against SS2 Gohan.

User avatar
BLAST!PROCESSOR
Newbie
Posts: 29
Joined: Fri Nov 02, 2018 12:12 pm

Re: So what's the fandom's consensus on Grade 3 Trunks being stronger than Perfect Cell?

Post by BLAST!PROCESSOR » Mon Nov 22, 2021 10:04 pm

Galan007 wrote: Mon Nov 22, 2021 8:55 pm It was only noted that Trunks was stronger than Cell while he [Cell] was still heavily suppressing his power... So said comments would not be applicable to a full power Cell, because none of the Z Fighters had any indication of what a 100% Cell was capable of at the time.

Again, Cell only used his full power against SS2 Gohan.
Again I already addressed this argument and why it's wrong and why that doesn't make sense. Especially (since Grade 3 Cell would logically be above FP regular Cell and) in the second post and in the link but I'll just copy and paste a response I made to someone who asked a similar question elsewhere below.

"Again, I kind of gave the full context in the last imgur link (#9 in case the entire post was too long since I'm just going to repeat myself because I already went over these topics). No one's really around to view Trunks Grade 3 power aside from Piccolo, Krillin, and Cell. And again I showed in the story and two guides that say Cell was genuinely startled/surprised/shocked by Trunks' power which is never the case for Goku. You could also same the same for Piccolo reacting to Grade 3 Trunks and Grade 3 Cell compared to Grade 4 Goku and powered-up (but not full power yet) Cell, who has only ever had reactions of shock by powers above his. So Trunks being stronger than Cell is suggested.

And if Krillin, Piccolo, Korin, and Goku can gauge Cell then surely Cell knew enough to know who he was stronger than or not, just not how accurately (in the same way a person can roughly tell how hard they can punch or kick but just not exactly). Cell not being intimidated but surprised at a greater power is also consistent. He's genuinely shocked by Trunks until he realizes the flaw in the form (so he has no reason to be) and it's the same for SSJ2 Gohan until he starts getting beaten because that's just Cell's character."

User avatar
Kaboom
Moderator
Posts: 14372
Joined: Mon Jan 09, 2006 6:07 pm
Location: Funky Town
Contact:

Re: So what's the fandom's consensus on Grade 3 Trunks being stronger than Perfect Cell?

Post by Kaboom » Tue Nov 23, 2021 12:01 pm

It really is just a matter of Trunks only surpassing Cell as he was then. Cell basically picked a comfortable level that was strong enough to beat up Grade-2 Vegeta, but Trunks managed to force his way past it with Grade 3.

Later on at the Cell Games, we get power statements about Goku "outstripping everyone," which should include Grade-3 Trunks unless specifically stated otherwise, and then Cell surmising that even if Trunks [and Vegeta] got stronger they should still be weaker than Goku. Then of course there's the awestruck reactions to "Cell's full power at last," including from Kuririn, which wouldn't merit so much shock if he and several others had already sensed it before.

You already pointed out half this stuff in your original post, so I don't know why it's not clicking. Your approach seems to be that Grade-3 Trunks' useless strength is just an unspoken exception to all this, which might be an okay assumption in other contexts or immediately after he and Cell's fight, but there's not really any room for doubt once you get into the Cell Games. It's made very clear that Cell's full power, finally revealed against Gohan, is a brand-new high bar that had not been shown before.
deviantART
FanFic: DragonBall GT Revised
[thread]
Powar Levuls: Main Series | Movies and Specials | GT
Nintendo/PSN/Steam: KaboomKrusader
ACNH Dream Address: DA-1637-4046-7415 ("SlamZone")
(Not) lost (enough) DB Super plots!
A handy video guide to Kanzenshuu-level grammar quality!

User avatar
Desassina
I'm, pretty, cozy, here...
Posts: 1534
Joined: Thu Nov 26, 2015 9:04 am

Re: So what's the fandom's consensus on Grade 3 Trunks being stronger than Perfect Cell?

Post by Desassina » Tue Nov 23, 2021 3:12 pm

There's even a point when Cell decides to show some of his true power in the form of a Grade 2 against Trunks to demotivate him. The secret that he revealed almost instantly put his previous claim to rest. Cell's full power was still beneath that of his power weighted form, since he used the latter as a last resort, so the expression "full power" only means the extent that one can take his natural self without tricks or shortcuts, in Goku and Gohan's case, their Super Saiyan forms, and in Cell's, his perfect form. Note that, because Cell achieved a SS2-like power up, his near death recovery may have given him a new full power before the ascension, most likely above that of his Grade 3. I'm using the grades interchangeably with his bulky forms.

User avatar
BLAST!PROCESSOR
Newbie
Posts: 29
Joined: Fri Nov 02, 2018 12:12 pm

Re: So what's the fandom's consensus on Grade 3 Trunks being stronger than Perfect Cell?

Post by BLAST!PROCESSOR » Tue Nov 23, 2021 9:39 pm

Kaboom wrote: Tue Nov 23, 2021 12:01 pm It really is just a matter of Trunks only surpassing Cell as he was then. Cell basically picked a comfortable level that was strong enough to beat up Grade-2 Vegeta, but Trunks managed to force his way past it with Grade 3.

Later on at the Cell Games, we get power statements about Goku "outstripping everyone," which should include Grade-3 Trunks unless specifically stated otherwise, and then Cell surmising that even if Trunks [and Vegeta] got stronger they should still be weaker than Goku. Then of course there's the awestruck reactions to "Cell's full power at last," including from Kuririn, which wouldn't merit so much shock if he and several others had already sensed it before.

You already pointed out half this stuff in your original post, so I don't know why it's not clicking. Your approach seems to be that Grade-3 Trunks' useless strength is just an unspoken exception to all this, which might be an okay assumption in other contexts or immediately after he and Cell's fight, but there's not really any room for doubt once you get into the Cell Games. It's made very clear that Cell's full power, finally revealed against Gohan, is a brand-new high bar that had not been shown before.
It's kind of just as Desassina says. Again, it's not really about the level of power Cell was at during the time he made the statement because again (copy and pasting previous example of this point), "if I say "that person is faster than me" while I'm walking, does that mean they're only faster than me when I'm walking because I said it while I was walking? No." And even if you want to believe his Cell's Grade 3 power displayed was still weaker than his regular form's full power because he was just trying to show he could utilize the same form at that point, consistently with his character, he likely also would've just stated he didn't even need to do that to surpass Grade 3 Trunks in raw power anyways. So it doesn't really matter if his full power was only ever displayed against Gohan because when a character (whether in fiction or reality) makes statement about themselves (and in DB's case your current state of being a.k.a. the form you're in) it refers to that characters general capacity of that form until specified otherwise. Until then, anything else is an assumption based on an unspoken expectation.

So when it comes to the idea of Grade 3 not being considered when it comes Goku "outstripping everyone" as Krillin says, it's pretty much the same reason as to why Grade 4/SSJFP isn't any stronger than Grade 1 and is beneath Grades 2 and 3 in terms of (maximum) power. The intention of the Grade 4 was stated both before and after it was achieved (with most guides being consistent with the story and not stating the form was any stronger than Grade 1) so when Goku unleashes his power, it's because he's that strong in JUST his SSJ form without any advancements and can actually use that strength. Nothing was every really stated or shown to betray that context.

So when we get admission that Trunks' Grade 3 power far surpasses Cell's (keeping in mind what I said in the first paragraph), then form's weakness being explained alongside Cell eluding all of Trunks' attacks in the manga aside from the tiny clashes from suppressed Trunks (even though he is likely to take attacks he can withstand as seen against Vegeta and the Grade 4s), then Cell showing that Cell could assume the same form make it consistent that Trunks was stronger that Cell. We know that Trunks exposition everything that happened, especially in front of Piccolo, Krillin, Vegeta because Trunks didn't have to protect his pride and everyone else. The consensus by Vegeta, Goku, and now Trunks (and by extension Gohan, I guess) was that know matter how much power was amassed with the form, it's speed rendered it useless. So seeing as how the form was "renounced" it's pretty much stated and shown that the form would furthermore be considered a non-factor or it probably would've been used again (unlike Grade 2 in the anime exclusively). So Mirroring the last paragraph, when Goku and Cell unleash their power, it's because they're just that strong in JUST those states without any advancements and again, can actually use that strength. Nothing was every really stated or shown to betray that context with support from the guidebooks too.

And again, the shock genuine shock at Trunks' power (backed up by the Trunks TV anime comic and EML 37) is consistent with the same reaction towards SSJ2 Gohan's. (The same could pretty much be said for Piccolo's to Grade 4 Goku and Cell during their match and Grade 3 Cell's.) This also coincides with D2's adventure history only stating that Trunks couldn't defeat Cell because of his speed deficiency which pretty much means (if not at the very least heavily implies) That Grade 3 Trunks bolstered enough power to defeat Cell.

pepd
Beyond-the-Beyond Newbie
Posts: 385
Joined: Mon Apr 06, 2020 6:52 pm

Re: So what's the fandom's consensus on Grade 3 Trunks being stronger than Perfect Cell?

Post by pepd » Tue Nov 23, 2021 10:40 pm

I do agree on that buff Trunks is probably stronger than Cell. Cell states it clearly, supported by it's portrayal, and it serves and reinforces the plot of surpassing the SS and Gokuu's path of choice; there is no reason to doubt Cell, and there is no need for it to be weaker because it's effective power is already weaker.
Sure, is something that could later be explained to not refer to his real power if needed, but it never was and there is no need to do it, because the form was rendered weaker in its introduction and never used again; so I just consider what was clearly established before.

No idea about most people's or guide's take on it

User avatar
Desassina
I'm, pretty, cozy, here...
Posts: 1534
Joined: Thu Nov 26, 2015 9:04 am

Re: So what's the fandom's consensus on Grade 3 Trunks being stronger than Perfect Cell?

Post by Desassina » Wed Nov 24, 2021 4:06 am

I think that I was misinterpreted. What I meant to say was that:
Super Saiyan 2 > Full Power > Grade 3 > Half Power > Grade 2 > Super Saiyan.
Cell's "full power" against Gohan would be half with respect to his near death recovery. Through the latter he may have gained a new state of being full before the ascension. It's just that he went all the way up to his "Super" Perfect form in one go.

Note: while the grades do showcase more strength at the expense of something, mastering their base Super Saiyan form has allowed it to become more powerful, which are not always synonyms since the ascension has the best of both worlds.

User avatar
BLAST!PROCESSOR
Newbie
Posts: 29
Joined: Fri Nov 02, 2018 12:12 pm

Re: So what's the fandom's consensus on Grade 3 Trunks being stronger than Perfect Cell?

Post by BLAST!PROCESSOR » Wed Nov 24, 2021 6:45 am

Desassina wrote: Wed Nov 24, 2021 4:06 am I think that I was misinterpreted. What I meant to say was that:
Super Saiyan 2 > Full Power > Grade 3 > Half Power > Grade 2 > Super Saiyan.
Cell's "full power" against Gohan would be half with respect to his near death recovery. Through the latter he may have gained a new state of being full before the ascension. It's just that he went all the way up to his "Super" Perfect form in one go.

Note: while the grades do showcase more strength at the expense of something, mastering their base Super Saiyan form has allowed it to become more powerful, which are not always synonyms since the ascension has the best of both worlds.
Ah okay I get it now though it's far more consistent with the context of the story that Grade 4 is = to Grade 1 in the context of the story this is because the story and most of the guides say that it's pretty much just Grade 1 without the agitation and instability removed. Daizenshuu 2 gives that "full power of the super saiyan" line but that only refers to a constant output of the full 50x boost they we never able to use since it states the form debuted in volume 34 even though Grade 4 debuted in the previous volume meaning it's specifically referring to Goku powering up against Cell. There's more on this that eye already touched on in the last two paragraphs of my first post before I give the list of imgur links in case you missed it. (Don't wanna end up completely repeating myself or wasting your time.)

So SSJ Grade 4/SSJ Full Power is still equal to Grade 1 in terms of power maximum power so none of that really applies to the Trunks vs Cell debate and is less consistent in the context of the story than G4/SSJFP = G1. Especially if SSJ2 is stated to further surpass SSJ which is what Grade 4 is referred to as and the only other forms that surpass SSJ that aren't Grade 4 would be G2 and G3 which are considered beyond it. Even in extra Daizenshuu 3 (or Daizsenshuu 10) and Daizenshuu 7.

User avatar
Desassina
I'm, pretty, cozy, here...
Posts: 1534
Joined: Thu Nov 26, 2015 9:04 am

Re: So what's the fandom's consensus on Grade 3 Trunks being stronger than Perfect Cell?

Post by Desassina » Wed Nov 24, 2021 7:11 am

Goku was clearly more powerful when he used the full extent of Super Saiyan. He came out of the Room of Spirit and Time as a Super Saiyan and then proceeded to power up to half in front of Karin and then all the way up against Cell. It's not a situation where their full power is equal to their previous selves, otherwise everyone would have sensed it from the get go, and they were not suppressing it either. Besides, Vegeta and Trunks have also trained their Super Saiyan forms so that they don't need to rely on the grades anymore, but fell under Goku and Gohan's full power due to their regime. You can tell by how they stack up to the Cell Juniors without bulking up.

User avatar
BLAST!PROCESSOR
Newbie
Posts: 29
Joined: Fri Nov 02, 2018 12:12 pm

Re: So what's the fandom's consensus on Grade 3 Trunks being stronger than Perfect Cell?

Post by BLAST!PROCESSOR » Wed Nov 24, 2021 6:37 pm

Desassina wrote: Wed Nov 24, 2021 7:11 am Goku was clearly more powerful when he used the full extent of Super Saiyan. He came out of the Room of Spirit and Time as a Super Saiyan and then proceeded to power up to half in front of Karin and then all the way up against Cell. It's not a situation where their full power is equal to their previous selves, otherwise everyone would have sensed it from the get go, and they were not suppressing it either. Besides, Vegeta and Trunks have also trained their Super Saiyan forms so that they don't need to rely on the grades anymore, but fell under Goku and Gohan's full power due to their regime. You can tell by how they stack up to the Cell Juniors without bulking up.
The reason why Goku (and Gohan) impress everyone with there strength is not because Grade 4 is stronger or they made SSJ stronger or anything like that. It's because increased his base power while also make it easier to maintain SSJ which makes them freely able to use the full power of SSJ without having to waste that energy sustain the form. This give G4/SSJFP the illusion of being stronger than G1 when in terms of maximum power they're all the same.

While Vegeta and Trunks may have increased their base power again and can use SSJ more freely they still din't have Grade 4 by the Cell Games as Daizenshuu 10 and the Trunks TV anime comic states. So their base power had increased as well. Though no of this changes the fact that Grade 3 Trunks is stated to be far stronger than Cell it refers to the entirety of Cell's normal Perfect state so nobody surpassed that level of power even after training in the Time Chamber because again it's surprising that Goku's just that strong in his regular SSJ. Vegeta is surprised by 50% of Goku's power, trains again, is confident in his power when he exits and is surprised when Goku doubles that energy. So this is how it is.

SSJG3 Trunks > Perfect Cell > 100% SSJ(G4) Gohan > 100% SSJ(G4) Goku > %50 SSJ(G4) Goku = SSJ Vegeta (post R.o.S.a.T. 2) = SSJ Trunks (post R.o.S.a.T. 2) > SSJG2 Vegeta (post R.o.S.a.T. 1) > SSJG2 Trunks (post R.o.S.a.T. 1) > SSJ Vegeta (post R.o.S.a.T. 1) > SSJ Trunks (post R.o.S.a.T. 1) > Semi-Perfect Cell

User avatar
BootyCheeksJohnson
Beyond Newbie
Posts: 210
Joined: Wed Jan 13, 2021 6:12 am

Re: So what's the fandom's consensus on Grade 3 Trunks being stronger than Perfect Cell?

Post by BootyCheeksJohnson » Thu Dec 02, 2021 6:39 am

He might have been, I'd even be willing to bet that he had more raw power in the moment, but it really doesn't matter if Trunks was stronger than Cell or not. The whole point of the scene was to act as a reminder that strength isn't everything, and that being a smart fighter is what ultimately earns you the win.
I think (IIRC) Cell even mentions that Trunks in that state could be a threat to him, but it didn't matter if he couldn't touch him.
We need a Steve Simmons retranslation of the manga.

Seekeroftruth
Beyond Newbie
Posts: 209
Joined: Sat Jul 25, 2020 3:25 pm

Re: So what's the fandom's consensus on Grade 3 Trunks being stronger than Perfect Cell?

Post by Seekeroftruth » Thu Dec 02, 2021 7:30 pm

I will explain exactly what went on with grade 3. Trunks did manage to increase his speed and strength beyond grade 2 however, the energy consumption and overall muscle mass makes grade 3 speed increase become retarded so much so that it does not increase in proportion to the strength.

It is for this reason, that android 16 did not make any comment of trunks being slower in his grade 3 form compared to his grade 2 state. Now with respect to Cell, he picked a level that would surpass his grade 2 and compete with grade 3 in strength. However, cell soon picked up on and was disappointed when he realized that trunk's grade 3 did not increase his speed in same amount to keep with cell. Thus, cell makes a comment of him inflating his little muscles and not actually powering up to match him really.

User avatar
BLAST!PROCESSOR
Newbie
Posts: 29
Joined: Fri Nov 02, 2018 12:12 pm

Re: So what's the fandom's consensus on Grade 3 Trunks being stronger than Perfect Cell?

Post by BLAST!PROCESSOR » Sat Dec 04, 2021 4:46 am

BootyCheeksJohnson wrote: Thu Dec 02, 2021 6:39 am He might have been, I'd even be willing to bet that he had more raw power in the moment, but it really doesn't matter if Trunks was stronger than Cell or not. The whole point of the scene was to act as a reminder that strength isn't everything, and that being a smart fighter is what ultimately earns you the win.
I think (IIRC) Cell even mentions that Trunks in that state could be a threat to him, but it didn't matter if he couldn't touch him.
Yep. that's pretty much the opinion I have here but I was just looking for the consensus on what people thought and why since I believe Grade 3 Trunks was stronger as was stated and possible contradictions with the other line of thinking.

User avatar
BLAST!PROCESSOR
Newbie
Posts: 29
Joined: Fri Nov 02, 2018 12:12 pm

Re: So what's the fandom's consensus on Grade 3 Trunks being stronger than Perfect Cell?

Post by BLAST!PROCESSOR » Sat Dec 04, 2021 4:49 am

Seekeroftruth wrote: Thu Dec 02, 2021 7:30 pm I will explain exactly what went on with grade 3. Trunks did manage to increase his speed and strength beyond grade 2 however, the energy consumption and overall muscle mass makes grade 3 speed increase become retarded so much so that it does not increase in proportion to the strength.

It is for this reason, that android 16 did not make any comment of trunks being slower in his grade 3 form compared to his grade 2 state. Now with respect to Cell, he picked a level that would surpass his grade 2 and compete with grade 3 in strength. However, cell soon picked up on and was disappointed when he realized that trunk's grade 3 did not increase his speed in same amount to keep with cell. Thus, cell makes a comment of him inflating his little muscles and not actually powering up to match him really.
Umm. So, first. Grade 3 Trunks only managed to increase his speed but had a decrease in speed. We can tell because he became slower than he was as Grade 2 and Goku still puts Grade 1 above Grade 3 as a fighting form. Plus in DBS, Caulifla goes from SSJ (Grade 4) to Grade 3 Goku says that she traded speed for power so we can confirm that Grade 3 is slower than SSJ. Cell was weaker than Trunks altogether so he stayed suppressed but with only enough speed to dodge him never letting Trunks hit him. If Cell could've taken the hits he would've like he did with Vegeta Goku and Gohan who were all weaker than him. (This isn't counting anything in the anime.)

ankokudaishogun
Advanced Regular
Posts: 1094
Joined: Thu Aug 24, 2017 8:07 pm

Re: So what's the fandom's consensus on Grade 3 Trunks being stronger than Perfect Cell?

Post by ankokudaishogun » Sat Dec 04, 2021 7:50 am

BLAST!PROCESSOR wrote: Sat Dec 04, 2021 4:49 am Plus in DBS, Caulifla goes from SSJ (Grade 4) to Grade 3
She doesn't. She was in Grade-1 then powered-up to Grade-3.
Goku tells her she'd better to master SS=reaching Grade-4 instead.

Seekeroftruth
Beyond Newbie
Posts: 209
Joined: Sat Jul 25, 2020 3:25 pm

Re: So what's the fandom's consensus on Grade 3 Trunks being stronger than Perfect Cell?

Post by Seekeroftruth » Sat Dec 04, 2021 4:37 pm

BLAST!PROCESSOR wrote: Sat Dec 04, 2021 4:49 am
Seekeroftruth wrote: Thu Dec 02, 2021 7:30 pm I will explain exactly what went on with grade 3. Trunks did manage to increase his speed and strength beyond grade 2 however, the energy consumption and overall muscle mass makes grade 3 speed increase become retarded so much so that it does not increase in proportion to the strength.

It is for this reason, that android 16 did not make any comment of trunks being slower in his grade 3 form compared to his grade 2 state. Now with respect to Cell, he picked a level that would surpass his grade 2 and compete with grade 3 in strength. However, cell soon picked up on and was disappointed when he realized that trunk's grade 3 did not increase his speed in same amount to keep with cell. Thus, cell makes a comment of him inflating his little muscles and not actually powering up to match him really.
Umm. So, first. Grade 3 Trunks only managed to increase his speed but had a decrease in speed. We can tell because he became slower than he was as Grade 2 and Goku still puts Grade 1 above Grade 3 as a fighting form. Plus in DBS, Caulifla goes from SSJ (Grade 4) to Grade 3 Goku says that she traded speed for power so we can confirm that Grade 3 is slower than SSJ. Cell was weaker than Trunks altogether so he stayed suppressed but with only enough speed to dodge him never letting Trunks hit him. If Cell could've taken the hits he would've like he did with Vegeta Goku and Gohan who were all weaker than him. (This isn't counting anything in the anime.)
Your sentence structure is confusing. I assume english is not your first language so i will give you some time to change your response.

Post Reply