How did Unseen Trunks get a remote.

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TobyS
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How did Unseen Trunks get a remote.

Post by TobyS » Wed Dec 01, 2021 8:20 pm

How did Unseen timeline Trunks get a remote to disable his and presumably their androids?

Trunks timeline trunks diverges from Cell timeline Trunks, because Cell comes back and starts talking about the basement, baby Cell the spy robots and the gene sampling robot.

But like, without a Cell there how do they ever know to look for blueprints?

Where exactly does the unseen timeline diverge? From the moment the get the fax about Cells time machine being found?

What happens at the point if they never get that fax and Cell never appears?
Yamcha almost certainly did not cheat on Bulma:
He was afraid of Women, Bulma was the flirty one.
Yamcha wanted to get married (it was his gonna be his wish)
He suggested they settle down in the Trunks saga.
Alternate future Trunks is not a reliable source.
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Re: How did Unseen Trunks get a remote.

Post by Yuji » Wed Dec 01, 2021 8:25 pm

Presumably the events all play out the same until Goku wakes up. The fanbase got the idea that they deactivated the androids but truthfully a lot of things could have happened:

a) Someone got the idea to go back to Gero's hideout and they find the basement by accident thereby discovering the schematics;
b) God deemds the androids a sufficient threat and fuses with Piccolo who goes on to kill them with the help of the others;
c) Goku tells the others about the ROSAT anyway and whoever goes in comes out and destroys the androids;
d) the androids naturally mellow out and become good guys as they would have without Cell's threat.

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Re: How did Unseen Trunks get a remote.

Post by TobyS » Wed Dec 01, 2021 9:28 pm

Yuji wrote: Wed Dec 01, 2021 8:25 pm Presumably the events all play out the same until Goku wakes up. The fanbase got the idea that they deactivated the androids but truthfully a lot of things could have happened:

a) Someone got the idea to go back to Gero's hideout and they find the basement by accident thereby discovering the schematics;
b) God deemds the androids a sufficient threat and fuses with Piccolo who goes on to kill them with the help of the others;
c) Goku tells the others about the ROSAT anyway and whoever goes in comes out and destroys the androids;
d) the androids naturally mellow out and become good guys as they would have without Cell's threat.
Hmm I'm re-reading the related bit of the manga, albeit on a shitty fansite because I don't have my viz's with me.

a) Trunks at least in this version does seem to talk about how Gero must of had a way to shut them down.
b) God specifically didn't think they were bad enough and was only motivated by Cell.
c) Vegeta talks about surpassing the androids and Kakarot, then he sees Piccolo and Cell stronger than him, then he talks to himself about surpassing super saiyan, Trunks then talks about that being Vegetas goal... so I guess that's what they assumed he meant all along, Goku does wake up flat out intending to surpass super Saiyan, but then he's seen everything in his dreams. So it's possible they don't think of it or think it's needed. Perhaps they don't think the ROSAT is needed and they can train conventionally but yeah I think they still go for Surpassing SS and using the ROSAT.
d) This is the part that's up in the air, they are less bad than the future ones but they still intend to kill Goku for fun initially. I think sorta Piccolo and Ten's sacrifices and as Super says specifically, Kuririn removing their bombs helped them regain humanity, either because they no longer feel like walking weapons but mostly the kind gesture of humanity by Kuririn. I personally feel their kill Goku programming came from Gero but seeing the rest of his vision when being eaten by and while being part of Cell probably gave them more will to resist it and be contrarian, do they naturally mellow out before? If they go to Kame house and Goku isn't there do they kill anyone there, who is there? Does Goku tell the people there he's going to Kamis palace? He originally tells the fighters on the plane but Piccolo isn't there he's probably still waiting for Kami to come round.

I guess it all comes down to can the androids beat Kamis places outta any of the Dragon team or do they not find anyone who knows? It wasn't on 16's list of places, which would make sense a spy bot could not get there.

If they do get there early 16 is way too strong for Goku or 17 if 16 lets 17 fight first because he might feel Goku dying is the goal it doesn't have to be by his hand.

Goku can just teleport away though if he doesn't get ganked. Or they can open the door and let Trunks and Vegeta out. And then it's a case of were their gains proportional and linear, are they stronger than 16 like 20 hours into a "day"?

There's a lot up in the air.

We would need to know about all of that to then say how Larval cells eventual awakening happens, and then Buu events onwards.

I guess Piccolo is there too so if they are about to kill Goku maybe Kami would fuse to save him.
Yamcha almost certainly did not cheat on Bulma:
He was afraid of Women, Bulma was the flirty one.
Yamcha wanted to get married (it was his gonna be his wish)
He suggested they settle down in the Trunks saga.
Alternate future Trunks is not a reliable source.
Toriyama wanted new SSJ Kids and not make new characters.

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Re: How did Unseen Trunks get a remote.

Post by 90sDBZ » Thu Dec 02, 2021 9:49 pm

Yuji wrote: Wed Dec 01, 2021 8:25 pm Presumably the events all play out the same until Goku wakes up. The fanbase got the idea that they deactivated the androids but truthfully a lot of things could have happened:

a) Someone got the idea to go back to Gero's hideout and they find the basement by accident thereby discovering the schematics;
b) God deemds the androids a sufficient threat and fuses with Piccolo who goes on to kill them with the help of the others;
c) Goku tells the others about the ROSAT anyway and whoever goes in comes out and destroys the androids;
d) the androids naturally mellow out and become good guys as they would have without Cell's threat.
The fact that Trunks gets killed by Imperfect Cell means he couldn't have trained in the Time Chamber, and if he didn't then it's unlikely anyone else did. Him shutting down the Androids via remote is the most logical scenario, as there's no other way to explain how he could kill the Androids in his own timeline and then be killed by Cell, who was initially weaker than the Androids. Even if Piccolo killed the Androids in the unseen timeline, it doesn't explain how Trunks could kill them in his own timeline without a remote.

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Re: How did Unseen Trunks get a remote.

Post by Grimlock » Thu Dec 02, 2021 10:25 pm

Just quick little thing and out of curiosity: what does Goku almost getting killed by a laser mean?
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Re: How did Unseen Trunks get a remote.

Post by Desassina » Fri Dec 03, 2021 2:52 am

There's the possibility that, by training, Trunks has only targeted the androids, since Cell did not show up for certain things to happen. In this branch of the present, where neither future Cell arrives nor his baby self gets killed, the existence of 16 is also at stake due to the fact that he only showed up when Cell had arrived, so Goku and Co. are at ease when it comes to dealing with the androids with some mild training, or dare I say effort. This is how Trunks goes to the future without being prepared for Cell, who was ready to absorb the androids there but not in the mainline, so they had to be weaker or within Trunks's mild strength improvement. The remote blueprints are unnecessary since they do present an obstacle in dealing with time travel through logic. However, since it's Dragon Ball and time travel, to hell with it :P

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Re: How did Unseen Trunks get a remote.

Post by 90sDBZ » Fri Dec 03, 2021 2:45 pm

I don't know. I feel like if they had done additional training it would have to be in the Time Chamber. Even if Trunks, Goku, and Vegeta did manage to surpass the Androids without it, Trunks would still be fighting 2 of them all by himself in the future. For me him somehow finding the blueprints is less of a stretch.

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Re: How did Unseen Trunks get a remote.

Post by GreatSaiyaman123 » Fri Dec 03, 2021 6:53 pm

I really doubt the Rosat was used, otherwise Trunks wouldn't have been killed by Cell and Cell wouldn't be confused by Vegeta and Trunks powering up so quickly.

I think it might have occurred to either Bulma or Trunks to look again in Gero's lab. Trunks definitely did not learn that in the past, since Cell admittedly did not fiddle with the settings of the time machine and still arrived 4 years before the Androids were even activated.
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Re: How did Unseen Trunks get a remote.

Post by miguelnuva1 » Fri Dec 03, 2021 7:01 pm

Unseen Trunks got the remote the same way we saw. Our Trunks just decides to stay in the present and train while Unseen Trunks left.

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Re: How did Unseen Trunks get a remote.

Post by Grimlock » Fri Dec 03, 2021 7:17 pm

I really would like to understand why it's so hard to imagine how Trunks, despite being strong, manages to get killed by Cell.

Trunks doesn't transform into Super Saiyan, despite not only having it, his counterpart, who didn't need Super Saiyan, transformed into it and killed Cell. Which implies what we see in that scene is hardly how the events actually happened. Why wouldn't Trunks use Super Saiyan?

Trunks being killed by Cell means two things:

1 - Trunks didn't train in the Time Chamber.
2 - Trunks did train in the Time Chamber, but Cell attacked him by surprise.

Both of these options are valid, and you have to at least acknowledge the other possibility in regards to the one you think it's true. Whis, help me out here.
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Re: How did Unseen Trunks get a remote.

Post by 90sDBZ » Sat Dec 04, 2021 9:04 am

Grimlock wrote: Fri Dec 03, 2021 7:17 pm I really would like to understand why it's so hard to imagine how Trunks, despite being strong, manages to get killed by Cell.

Trunks doesn't transform into Super Saiyan, despite not only having it, his counterpart, who didn't need Super Saiyan, transformed into it and killed Cell. Which implies what we see in that scene is hardly how the events actually happened. Why wouldn't Trunks use Super Saiyan?

Trunks being killed by Cell means two things:

1 - Trunks didn't train in the Time Chamber.
2 - Trunks did train in the Time Chamber, but Cell attacked him by surprise.

Both of these options are valid, and you have to at least acknowledge the other possibility in regards to the one you think it's true. Whis, help me out here.
There's a part shortly before Vegeta's fight with Cell were Cell acknowledges that Trunks has changed just by seeing his base form. If he'd already killed a post-Time Chamber version of Trunks then why would he bother to acknowledge it? And also didn't Cell absorb Trunks after killing him? Surely if he did it would make him stronger than absorbing 17 did.

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Re: How did Unseen Trunks get a remote.

Post by Grimlock » Sat Dec 04, 2021 3:18 pm

Maybe Toriyama forgot to make a connection between that moment and when Cell killed Trunks in the other timeline. Imagine if Toriyama would remember what Cell said many chapters before and didn't bother to show it either. I also think that Cell should have said something when he killed Trunks once he came back as Super Saiyan 2, something like: "I killed you again, Trunks". Acknowledging what happened before, but nothing of sorts happens.
90sDBZ wrote: Sat Dec 04, 2021 9:04 amAnd also didn't Cell absorb Trunks after killing him?
No. :eh: Unless you mean "absorb life force", like Cell does to humans. Well, while that is a possibility, he does that to Piccolo but didn't seem he got much stronger.
90sDBZ wrote: Sat Dec 04, 2021 9:04 amSurely if he did it would make him stronger than absorbing 17 did.
We don't know if Cell would change at all by absorbing anyone other than Android 17 and Android 18. He's Cell after all, not Buu.
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Re: How did Unseen Trunks get a remote.

Post by TobyS » Sat Dec 04, 2021 9:53 pm

He ate enough humans in the future to eat the two (weaker) androids confidently.

Trunks could have be jumped in base it's very plausible.

He returned to larval form so it doesn't matter if he absorbs trunks or not beforehand. But if he acknowledges Trunks post time chamber growth in the present that implies he didn't go there for long in the unseen if at all.

We are still otherwise left with “how did trunks get half strong” or “what made them think to check Geros lab without cell telling them about the basement”
Yamcha almost certainly did not cheat on Bulma:
He was afraid of Women, Bulma was the flirty one.
Yamcha wanted to get married (it was his gonna be his wish)
He suggested they settle down in the Trunks saga.
Alternate future Trunks is not a reliable source.
Toriyama wanted new SSJ Kids and not make new characters.

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Re: How did Unseen Trunks get a remote.

Post by 90sDBZ » Sun Dec 05, 2021 6:45 pm

Grimlock wrote: Sat Dec 04, 2021 3:18 pm Maybe Toriyama forgot to make a connection between that moment and when Cell killed Trunks in the other timeline. Imagine if Toriyama would remember what Cell said many chapters before and didn't bother to show it either. I also think that Cell should have said something when he killed Trunks once he came back as Super Saiyan 2, something like: "I killed you again, Trunks". Acknowledging what happened before, but nothing of sorts happens.
90sDBZ wrote: Sat Dec 04, 2021 9:04 amAnd also didn't Cell absorb Trunks after killing him?
No. :eh: Unless you mean "absorb life force", like Cell does to humans. Well, while that is a possibility, he does that to Piccolo but didn't seem he got much stronger.
90sDBZ wrote: Sat Dec 04, 2021 9:04 amSurely if he did it would make him stronger than absorbing 17 did.
We don't know if Cell would change at all by absorbing anyone other than Android 17 and Android 18. He's Cell after all, not Buu.
Absorbing life force definitely makes Cell stronger, taking him from below Piccolo to one-shotting him from humans alone. The life-force of a post-Time Chamber Trunks would have made him way stronger than Piccolo to begin with.

Cell's appearance didn't change from regular absorptions, but his power definitely did.

To me the narrative has always felt like "Trunks was destined to be killed by Cell, but the Time Chamber changed everything".

As for the remote, it's possible that Trunks simply decided to search the lab out of desperation.

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Re: How did Unseen Trunks get a remote.

Post by TobyS » Sun Dec 05, 2021 8:08 pm

Can anyone confirm Trunks was pondering that Gero must have had a way to shut them down before they got the fax about the extra time machine?
Yamcha almost certainly did not cheat on Bulma:
He was afraid of Women, Bulma was the flirty one.
Yamcha wanted to get married (it was his gonna be his wish)
He suggested they settle down in the Trunks saga.
Alternate future Trunks is not a reliable source.
Toriyama wanted new SSJ Kids and not make new characters.

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Re: How did Unseen Trunks get a remote.

Post by Grimlock » Mon Dec 06, 2021 8:18 am

90sDBZ wrote: Sun Dec 05, 2021 6:45 pmTo me the narrative has always felt like "Trunks was destined to be killed by Cell, but the Time Chamber changed everything".
I think what changed Trunks' fate was him discovering Cell's time machine. Which original Trunks didn't. Because even if we do take that scene into account exactly how it plays out, he wasn't expecting Cell to appear.
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Re: How did Unseen Trunks get a remote.

Post by 90sDBZ » Mon Dec 06, 2021 9:40 am

Grimlock wrote: Mon Dec 06, 2021 8:18 am
90sDBZ wrote: Sun Dec 05, 2021 6:45 pmTo me the narrative has always felt like "Trunks was destined to be killed by Cell, but the Time Chamber changed everything".
I think what changed Trunks' fate was him discovering Cell's time machine. Which original Trunks didn't. Because even if we do take that scene into account exactly how it plays out, he wasn't expecting Cell to appear.
Possibly. One key difference is unseen Trunks wearing his regular outfit when he dies, while regular Trunks wears his Saiyan armour. If both are intended to be the exact same moment in time, then there's a couple of ways to interpret this;

1. Unseen Trunks was never given the armour, as his Time Chamber training never happened.
2. Regular Trunks wore it because he was expecting Cell, and wanted the extra protection. Unseen Trunks had it but didn't wear it because he wasn't expecting Cell.

But then there's the matter of unseen Trunks still having his sword, which further complicates things. As we know regular Trunks discards his sword after it gets damaged in the fight with 17 and 18. Does this mean that fight never occurred in the unseen timeline? Or perhaps he got it repaired or got a new one at some point, while regular Trunks seemingly doesn't (DBS aside). Maybe regular Trunks felt he no longer needed a sword because of the Time Chamber, while unseen Trunks still relied on it because he never trained in the Time Chamber.

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Re: How did Unseen Trunks get a remote.

Post by TobyS » Mon Dec 06, 2021 4:02 pm

90sDBZ wrote: Mon Dec 06, 2021 9:40 am
Grimlock wrote: Mon Dec 06, 2021 8:18 am
90sDBZ wrote: Sun Dec 05, 2021 6:45 pmTo me the narrative has always felt like "Trunks was destined to be killed by Cell, but the Time Chamber changed everything".
I think what changed Trunks' fate was him discovering Cell's time machine. Which original Trunks didn't. Because even if we do take that scene into account exactly how it plays out, he wasn't expecting Cell to appear.
Possibly. One key difference is unseen Trunks wearing his regular outfit when he dies, while regular Trunks wears his Saiyan armour. If both are intended to be the exact same moment in time, then there's a couple of ways to interpret this;

1. Unseen Trunks was never given the armour, as his Time Chamber training never happened.
2. Regular Trunks wore it because he was expecting Cell, and wanted the extra protection. Unseen Trunks had it but didn't wear it because he wasn't expecting Cell.

But then there's the matter of unseen Trunks still having his sword, which further complicates things. As we know regular Trunks discards his sword after it gets damaged in the fight with 17 and 18. Does this mean that fight never occurred in the unseen timeline? Or perhaps he got it repaired or got a new one at some point, while regular Trunks seemingly doesn't (DBS aside). Maybe regular Trunks felt he no longer needed a sword because of the Time Chamber, while unseen Trunks still relied on it because he never trained in the Time Chamber.
I'm starting to wonder if the Androids Beat the saiyans location out of the others and interrupted the first twos training. Trunks being strong enough to beat the androids but no a lot taller and still wanting the sword.
Yamcha almost certainly did not cheat on Bulma:
He was afraid of Women, Bulma was the flirty one.
Yamcha wanted to get married (it was his gonna be his wish)
He suggested they settle down in the Trunks saga.
Alternate future Trunks is not a reliable source.
Toriyama wanted new SSJ Kids and not make new characters.

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Re: How did Unseen Trunks get a remote.

Post by Lionel » Mon Dec 06, 2021 4:11 pm

Bulma is a scientifically minded individual who could have deduced that Gero had some means of keeping his cyborgs under control. It isn't a leap to suggest that something in the old laboratory could have been used. The group did overhear #18 mention something about an inability for Gero to control the infinite energy models.

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Re: How did Unseen Trunks get a remote.

Post by Grimlock » Mon Dec 06, 2021 6:16 pm

90sDBZ wrote: Mon Dec 06, 2021 9:40 amPossibly. One key difference is unseen Trunks wearing his regular outfit when he dies, while regular Trunks wears his Saiyan armour. If both are intended to be the exact same moment in time, then there's a couple of ways to interpret this;

1. Unseen Trunks was never given the armour, as his Time Chamber training never happened.
2. Regular Trunks wore it because he was expecting Cell, and wanted the extra protection. Unseen Trunks had it but didn't wear it because he wasn't expecting Cell.

But then there's the matter of unseen Trunks still having his sword, which further complicates things. As we know regular Trunks discards his sword after it gets damaged in the fight with 17 and 18. Does this mean that fight never occurred in the unseen timeline? Or perhaps he got it repaired or got a new one at some point, while regular Trunks seemingly doesn't (DBS aside). Maybe regular Trunks felt he no longer needed a sword because of the Time Chamber, while unseen Trunks still relied on it because he never trained in the Time Chamber.
You've provided two other reasons why it's better we should not take into consideration that flashback. I didn't even notice those details. But as far as clothing goes, I don't think it's (or should be) that important. I mean, sure you can use it to favor your perspective, but you know, if we are to analyze things that deeply, a lot of stuff gets questionable then. Like, I prefer Bardock's original design, so that's the outfit he was wearing when facing Freeza, for example (and it's in the manga).

(I also just noticed, Trunks was wearing his Capsule Corporation outfit in Movie 9, wasn't he? Some ideas... :think:).

Anyway, maybe Toriyama should have just depicted how Trunks got killed himself. Then again, it's not really that hard to figure out how things are indeed supposed to happen in that scene specifically in order to make sense of it.
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