How did Unseen Trunks get a remote.

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Re: How did Unseen Trunks get a remote.

Post by 90sDBZ » Mon Dec 06, 2021 9:29 pm

Grimlock wrote: Mon Dec 06, 2021 6:16 pm You've provided two other reasons why it's better we should not take into consideration that flashback. I didn't even notice those details. But as far as clothing goes, I don't think it's (or should be) that important. I mean, sure you can use it to favor your perspective, but you know, if we are to analyze things that deeply, a lot of stuff gets questionable then. Like, I prefer Bardock's original design, so that's the outfit he was wearing when facing Freeza, for example (and it's in the manga).

(I also just noticed, Trunks was wearing his Capsule Corporation outfit in Movie 9, wasn't he? Some ideas... :think:).

Anyway, maybe Toriyama should have just depicted how Trunks got killed himself. Then again, it's not really that hard to figure out how things are indeed supposed to happen in that scene specifically in order to make sense of it.
Yeah you're right, we can only analyse this stuff so much before it starts to contradict itself. Personally I've always found the idea of an unseen timeline to be really cool and fun to discuss, but at the same time it's very unlikely Toriyama gave it a second thought.

One detail that can never be explained is why the time machine was set to go to the main timeline, rather than the unseen one Trunks had supposedly already been to. It throws some doubt over whether the unseen timeline ever existed to begin with, but at the same time the Trunks who died had somehow returned from the past without learning of Cell, so it must exist. It's a crazy paradox.

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Re: How did Unseen Trunks get a remote.

Post by Grimlock » Tue Dec 07, 2021 11:05 am

Yeah I had thought about that. Maybe what changed everything was Cell killing Trunks? Maybe Trunks wasn't supposed to die by Cell after all?

Cell should indeed have gone to this "unseen timeline", but for some reason, he goes to another timeline. Not only that, he goes to another point in time too. The Time Machine was set to go to AGE 767, instead, it goes to AGE 763 of another timeline! (That's a 25-year-trip through time, by the way).

None of this makes any sense. :crazy:
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Re: How did Unseen Trunks get a remote.

Post by 90sDBZ » Tue Dec 07, 2021 9:18 pm

I've been reading a bunch of different theories that try to explain things. It's possible that after Trunks deactivated his own Androids he planned on going back all the way back to before Mecha Frieza, to create a world were no Androids were ever unleashed to begin with. He even said to Goku during their first meeting that he would have gone after Gero instead if he knew the location of his lab.

I think there was the idea that the unseen timeline and the main timeline were one in the same, until Cell went back and caused the split.

So basically Cell's timeline was the original, where he ultimately killed Trunks. This version of Trunks had already gone back and experienced the unseen timeline. Lets assume this Trunks had intended to go back to an earlier point of the unseen timeline than before, to take out Gero. Because he'd already been back to kill Frieza, this was still "destined" to happen when Frieza arrived on earth in the unseen timeline. In other words it was now impossible for Trunks to travel back to the original timeline were Goku killed Mecha Frieza, as he'd already altered the history of that timeline by doing so himself.

So Cell kills Trunks before he can go back to stop Gero, and goes back himself, simultaneously creating the main timeline as we see it, leaving the unseen timeline... unseen.

Now here's were it gets complicated. People question how the timeline of "Our Trunks", aka the one where he kills Cell came to be, as he was destined to be killed by Cell. The explanation for this is Cell's reign of terror split the timeline yet again, as it served as the catalyst for Trunks training in the Time Chamber while also giving him knowledge of Cell. Basically the moment Trunks returned to the future stronger than he should be was the moment his timeline split from Cell's. In short Cell caused his own undoing, or the undoing of another Cell at least.

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Re: How did Unseen Trunks get a remote.

Post by miguelnuva1 » Wed Dec 08, 2021 9:04 am

Unseen Trunks decided to take the remote instead of trainning with Vegeta as the daiz mentions there was a Cell games there.

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Re: How did Unseen Trunks get a remote.

Post by TobyS » Thu Dec 09, 2021 9:31 am

miguelnuva1 wrote: Wed Dec 08, 2021 9:04 am Unseen Trunks decided to take the remote instead of trainning with Vegeta as the daiz mentions there was a Cell games there.
The cell games part of that is generally ignored.

Cell even gets the idea of doing a Cell games from fighting Trunks, or at least while fighting Trunks.

If Trunks has already fucked off with the remote I don't see it happening. Nor him leaving till after the Cell games.

I'd say Cells timemachine would have gone back to the unseen timeline but he set it even earlier to have time to hatch, that caused a paradox and a split.
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He suggested they settle down in the Trunks saga.
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Re: How did Unseen Trunks get a remote.

Post by 90sDBZ » Thu Dec 09, 2021 10:29 pm

TobyS wrote: Thu Dec 09, 2021 9:31 am
miguelnuva1 wrote: Wed Dec 08, 2021 9:04 am Unseen Trunks decided to take the remote instead of trainning with Vegeta as the daiz mentions there was a Cell games there.
The cell games part of that is generally ignored.

Cell even gets the idea of doing a Cell games from fighting Trunks, or at least while fighting Trunks.

If Trunks has already fucked off with the remote I don't see it happening. Nor him leaving till after the Cell games.

I'd say Cells timemachine would have gone back to the unseen timeline but he set it even earlier to have time to hatch, that caused a paradox and a split.
Yeah the Cell Games without Trunks thing never made sense. I think the idea behind it was that Trunks couldn't be there because Cell had already killed him in the future. But this straight up contradicts what happens in the main timeline, with another Trunks showing up despite Cell having killed him in the future.

The theory that Trunks was absent from the Cell Games because he decided to go home early before dying in the future also doesn't work. Cell is the reason he sticks around in the main timeline. The only scenario were he goes home earlier is one were Cell never appeared, and they somehow dealt with the Androids. Any timeline with a Cell Games would have to have Trunks be present.

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Re: How did Unseen Trunks get a remote.

Post by miguelnuva1 » Fri Dec 10, 2021 1:57 am

TobyS wrote: Thu Dec 09, 2021 9:31 am
miguelnuva1 wrote: Wed Dec 08, 2021 9:04 am Unseen Trunks decided to take the remote instead of trainning with Vegeta as the daiz mentions there was a Cell games there.
The cell games part of that is generally ignored.

Cell even gets the idea of doing a Cell games from fighting Trunks, or at least while fighting Trunks.

If Trunks has already fucked off with the remote I don't see it happening. Nor him leaving till after the Cell games.

I'd say Cells time machine would have gone back to the unseen timeline but he set it even earlier to have time to hatch, that caused a paradox and a split.
Cell gets the idea from fighting Vegeta and Trunks. Seeing Vegeta power up that quickly and knowing Goku is doing the same could be enough for him to still create the games. Trunks is the messenger but Kuririn could have also been the messenger in the case that Trunks isn't there.
90sDBZ wrote: Thu Dec 09, 2021 10:29 pm
TobyS wrote: Thu Dec 09, 2021 9:31 am
miguelnuva1 wrote: Wed Dec 08, 2021 9:04 am Unseen Trunks decided to take the remote instead of trainning with Vegeta as the daiz mentions there was a Cell games there.
The cell games part of that is generally ignored.

Cell even gets the idea of doing a Cell games from fighting Trunks, or at least while fighting Trunks.

If Trunks has already fucked off with the remote I don't see it happening. Nor him leaving till after the Cell games.

I'd say Cells timemachine would have gone back to the unseen timeline but he set it even earlier to have time to hatch, that caused a paradox and a split.
Yeah the Cell Games without Trunks thing never made sense. I think the idea behind it was that Trunks couldn't be there because Cell had already killed him in the future. But this straight up contradicts what happens in the main timeline, with another Trunks showing up despite Cell having killed him in the future.

The theory that Trunks was absent from the Cell Games because he decided to go home early before dying in the future also doesn't work. Cell is the reason he sticks around in the main timeline. The only scenario were he goes home earlier is one were Cell never appeared, and they somehow dealt with the Androids. Any timeline with a Cell Games would have to have Trunks be present.
Time travel usually deals with choice. If The Trunks we saw decided to stay there is a good chance that there is a Trunks that decided to go home with the remote.

Some made a timeline theory based on Super putting Trunks as the one that caused the time travel problems saying that Trunks is the reason for all the timelines.

Trunks killing Frieza and saving Goku is the first split. Trunks then deciding to train in the ROSAT is the second split. Trunks would have created 3 timelines with his two choices.

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Re: How did Unseen Trunks get a remote.

Post by SSJgogeto » Fri Dec 10, 2021 2:51 pm

I've been reading some theories, and I like this one:

1 - Timelines aren't created because of certain choices, they're created when someone travels to the past unnaturally (using a device like a time machine).

2 - When a new timeline is created, a connection is formed between the original and the alternate timelines, but the traveler needs always to go to the same day in the past; otherwise, another timeline is created. Also, it is impossible to travel to timelines other than the one you have created.

3 - There are 4 timelines in Z: the original one, Cell's timeline, Mirai Trunks' timeline and the "main" timeline, when all the events take place. Cell's timeline was created when the original Trunks went to the past, Cell created Mirai Trunks' timeline and Mirai Trunks created the main timeline.

By this logic, it's hard to tell how Trunks from Cell's timeline (the unseen one) get a remote. Maybe the Bulma from this timeline suggested looking for some clues/informations in Gero's lab.

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Re: How did Unseen Trunks get a remote.

Post by Shintoki » Fri Dec 10, 2021 6:16 pm

gotta love how toriyama went full BTTF https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W3LwlSlo5cw BTTF clip

just a note, but in the chouzenshuu. the ''4th timeline where a mysterious cell appears with cell games'' is removed and the ''trunks used the remote to defeat 18/17'' is ditched in favor of ''somehow'' as well

Image

Toei/toyotaro, however, chose to go with the earlier lore of the danzenshuu instead

Image

since the chouzenshuu is supposed to be the latest full-through guidebook of the series, take it as you will

it's alright to post them those, right? i thought of posting them since it's nigh impossible to explain the 4th timeline without the source that added it.

at any rate, the 4th timeline diverge between when the cyborgs appear and the cell games begin. considering that cell is in his perfect form, it means he managed to absorb them in this timeline as well. and there is no trunks in that timeline because the trunks that is supposed to appear is the first trunks that got killed.

which means that the world diverged during the first trunks period like the unseen timeline. not the second trunks. cell going back somehow created two cells that went both to the original timeline and the 4th timeline but here's the thing. none of this add up, there should be 5 timelines to begin with, not 4

original timeline aka where killed trunks is from
alternate future trunks timeline
altered past timeline (current one)
the alternate one with another cell from the future.
the timeline that the first trunks rescued.

but it seems that the dragon ball editors who thought of it as 4 view alternate future trunks and original timeline the same??????

that is a really weird viewpoint and instantly establish that there are whacy time travel rules in DB.

Image

so first trunks somehow created two timelines, the unseen timeline and the 4th history timeline. and cell ended up on the latter as well as the current one

Image

blue = first trunks, red = second trunks. purple = together

this is really weird since this phenomena is never observed again. it's a plot hole tbh. the only way this can fit is if there is a third trunks identical to the first that got killed by his own cell prior to his return thus explaining why there is another cell.

which guess what, guys. it's either there are only 3 timelines without the cell clusterfire or there are more than 4. no inbetween

sorry to say this to you guys, but toriyama screwed up big time by canonizing this guidebook lore in DBS.now you can't ignore this plot hole as some BS that the guidebooks created and just shrug it off as an error.
Grimlock wrote: Tue Dec 07, 2021 11:05 am Yeah I had thought about that. Maybe what changed everything was Cell killing Trunks? Maybe Trunks wasn't supposed to die by Cell after all?

Cell should indeed have gone to this "unseen timeline", but for some reason, he goes to another timeline. Not only that, he goes to another point in time too. The Time Machine was set to go to AGE 767, instead, it goes to AGE 763 of another timeline! (That's a 25-year-trip through time, by the way).

None of this makes any sense. :crazy:
the simple answer is that the dragon ball supers are a mess and since they have a canonicity issue in regarding which version and details are canon or not.

i'm gonna pretend DBS didn't happen and just use the chouzenshuu take. there are only 3 timelines. future 1 aka original, future 2, trunks timeline, unseen timeline. so in short, don't mind the 4th history timeline, OP!
PurestEvil wrote: Sat Oct 09, 2021 6:21 pm You could also, y'know, become a real buddhist
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Re: How did Unseen Trunks get a remote.

Post by Grimlock » Fri Dec 10, 2021 7:29 pm

Not just Dragon Ball Super, the original series/Toriyama himself is also a mess. It's not like he doesn't make mistakes of his own.

For example, Cell says he wouldn't be completed "for another twenty four years", that puts his completion in AGE 791, outright contradicting Trunks who says Cell came "three years ahead of the year in his timeline" (that would mean Trunks is the one who came from AGE 788).

Image

So like, if we take that into consideration, the whole thing, the saga itself, all the timelines, everything gets screwed up even more (also in the same chapter, Piccolo refers to Goku and Vegeta fight as happening "three years ago" when he should have said "five years ago").

I don't think they have "canonicity issue", whatever that means. But you are better off preteding Dragon Ball Super didn't happen. Aside from a few interesting things, you're not losing much.
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Re: How did Unseen Trunks get a remote.

Post by Alruneia » Fri Dec 10, 2021 8:28 pm

Shintoki wrote: Fri Dec 10, 2021 6:16 pm Toei/toyotaro, however, chose to go with the earlier lore of the danzenshuu instead

(Manga scan of Zamasu discovering that a new Time Ring has been generated)
Just to be clear on this one, the new Time Ring that appears here is related to the timeline split caused by Beerus destroying Zamasu (or at least that's the event that gets pointed to officially), creating a new timeline where he doesn't become Goku Black, i.e the timeline we're currently following as the main timeline. So the image doesn't really help much with clearing things up about the Cell arc timelines, at least not on its own.

The manga establishes that Universe 12 has a separate time machine responsible for creating another Time Ring once, but doesn't say that that's the only other time that Time Rings have been created. So the Time Rings aren't all meant to represent the time travel done with the time machine built by Bulma, as at least one of them don't. You can just barely fit in every timeline with the 4-timeline Cell arc setup if nobody except Bulma and someone in Universe 12 invented time machines, I suppose, but neither the anime nor the manga really suggest this. To be specific, the anime goes against the idea in a few places, while the manga doesn't really address it at all.

All this mess is why I'm personally considering a 2-timeline setup for the Cell arc, where you kinda just have to accept that the timelines can be directly overwritten without that causing time paradoxes... somehow. So Cell's timeline and Trunks' timeline are one and the same, and the unseen timeline and the main timeline are one and the same. The DBS anime in particular seems to agree with the idea of only having 2 timelines for the Cell arc, mainly because of the part where they bring out "Cell's" time machine and use it to go to Trunks' timeline, but there's also the part when Gowasu and Zamasu use the Time Ring to look 1000 years into the future, and Gowasu says that a green Time Ring was created recently, rather than saying that three of them were made, which would have been a very natural thing to point out since that's so many. So I believe the Cell arc has been simplified down and is being treated in this way by the writers, even if the same logic might not extend to the Zamasu arc's time travel shenanigans.

Sidenote, if you discard Super, the 4-timeline setup will work just fine, since nothing limits the amount of timelines in DB(Z) alone.

...

That was a lot of text about something I haven't even really figured out yet. Sheesh.

Anyway, to the main topic, I think the whole "shutdown remote" aspect has been dropped, so we're just left with an intentionally vague plot point that Trunks "somehow" defeated 17 and 18 but wasn't able to deal with Cell. I can't do anything but guess, so my guess is that Trunks did train in some way along with the others in the unseen timeline, and they had a big final showdown with 16, 17 and 18, leading to some kind of Cell-less conclusion to the android battle. Trunks used what he learned to defeat his own version of 17 and 18 afterwards, but once Cell surfaced, he obviously had no idea who he was or how to handle him, so either he was caught off-guard by Cell or he got outsmarted/outplayed (out-technique'd?), either of which could easily cancel out any advantage Trunks would've had in terms of strength.
(And yeah, the unseen timeline and the main timeline should be the same up until Cell surfaces.)
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Re: How did Unseen Trunks get a remote.

Post by TobyS » Mon Dec 13, 2021 7:56 pm

You don't need to discard super for it to make sense.

It's the same 4 timelines but the U12 guys.

Black leaves the "Main" timeline to trunks, trunks goes back earlier in the main timeline and Zamasu is killed.

Instead of splitting this new game +'s that timeline.

Black continues to exist due to the time ring.

so either the ring stays the same or "blacks" poofs and "the new main" replaces it instantly.

Still 5.

Trunks's is destroyed at the end but then the double trunks one is created instead.

still 5.

I think people wrongly assume unseen was done away with and Blacks continues to exist.
Yamcha almost certainly did not cheat on Bulma:
He was afraid of Women, Bulma was the flirty one.
Yamcha wanted to get married (it was his gonna be his wish)
He suggested they settle down in the Trunks saga.
Alternate future Trunks is not a reliable source.
Toriyama wanted new SSJ Kids and not make new characters.

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