Why Gohan never "took the reigns" of the story

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capsulecorp
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Why Gohan never "took the reigns" of the story

Post by capsulecorp » Sat Dec 11, 2021 10:57 pm

This is a common complaint from fans, particularly fans of Gohan, but I've never wanted Gohan to "take the reigns" of the story and, to me, it feels totally natural and deliberate that he doesn't. In fact, I think the way children are raised and how values are passed down from their parents (or not) is an important theme in the Buu story and beyond. It helps to look at Gohan in the context of the other "next generation" Saiyans:

Unlike Goku, who had to learn to fend for himself at a young age, never had a home, and slowly built his own "found family" over time, Goku's children grow up in comfort and (relative) safety, with two parents (to be fair, sometimes one) and surrounded by friends. People take for granted that Goku loves to fight, and lives to fight, but it's important to remember that at least part of the reason why he is the way he is is that he had to be.

In Gohan's case, yes, he's obviously put through several dangerous and terrifying experiences at a very young age but, unlike Goku, he usually always has (at least one) father figure to run to or hope for a bailout from. Like the studying Chichi always pushes on him, fighting is work demanded under pressure from his father or Piccolo, another father figure. He even goes to school, and has the luxury of being concerned with grades, fashion and girls. In the Buu arc he gets a ridiculously unearned powerup by literally sitting still doing nothing. The lesson? Trust your elders... which he of course immediately ignores in the fight against Kid Buu (it's also not a coincidence that the final form of Buu is "kid" Buu, since this theme of raising children extends to Buu, Babidi and Bibidi (not to mention Videl and Mr Satan, but this post is getting too long already!)).

Finally, we're told that he wants to be a scholar, and eventually he does become a scholar. He never feels the desire or the need to be a great warrior, and he rarely needs to fend for himself.

Unlike Gohan, Goten barely knows Goku. He learns martial arts and ki control extremely easily and becomes a Super Saiyan almost by accident. He never has to work for anything and, when Buu arrives, he's scared but gets involved due to peer pressure from Trunks. Because neither has ever been in danger before it's an adventure for them! This is superficially similar to young Goku's fearlessness... except that, unlike Goku, Goten and Trunks grew up surrounded by safety, love and privilege. This is exemplified in Gotenks: an absurdly powerful spoiled brat, fueled by unearned genetic power, who ends up getting humiliated and spanked.

Trunks, like Vegeta, grows up as the child in one of the richest/most powerful families on earth. Unlike Vegeta, whose father was presumably very strict and relentless, Trunks is raised mostly by his mother and ends up lazy and indulgent. After the time skip we see a little bit of teenager Trunks, who is criticized for not training and instead seems to spend his time chasing girls.

Finally, Pan. We don't know much about her but what we do know is very suggestive. She's a lot like Goku in that she loves to train and fight from a very young age. She wants to train with Goku but he abandons her to train Uub, leaving her without a mentor similar to how Goku was left alone after his grandfather Gohan died (presumably, Vegeta is too busy and proud and misogynistic to train her). We'll see how the new film handles her but I expect the parallels between Pan and Goku will be explored there!

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Re: Why Gohan never "took the reigns" of the story

Post by jjgp1112 » Sun Dec 12, 2021 1:46 am

See, the thing is, as much as I like the idea of Gohan getting the ball and just failing to run with it and thus forcing Goku to asusme responsibility...the story never actually elaborates on any of this. Like, it never even attempts to, and thus you're left with a completely unresolved character arc because Toriyama shoddily switches gears. None of these themes even get addressed until Super. The story builds Gohan up, tosses him aside...and that's it. There's no follow-up that would actually give his failure meaning.

Ultimately, the fans can only add in all that seasoning itself, because as far as the text goes, it might as well have never happened.
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Re: Why Gohan never "took the reigns" of the story

Post by Cursed Lemon » Sun Dec 12, 2021 12:57 pm

jjgp1112 wrote: Sun Dec 12, 2021 1:46 am See, the thing is, as much as I like the idea of Gohan getting the ball and just failing to run with it and thus forcing Goku to asusme responsibility...the story never actually elaborates on any of this. Like, it never even attempts to, and thus you're left with a completely unresolved character arc because Toriyama shoddily switches gears. None of these themes even get addressed until Super. The story builds Gohan up, tosses him aside...and that's it. There's no follow-up that would actually give his failure meaning.

Ultimately, the fans can only add in all that seasoning itself, because as far as the text goes, it might as well have never happened.
^ All of this

I would've loved to see Gohan assume the hero mantle, but I would've also been perfectly fine with a rational deep-dive into why he couldn't handle it like Goku can. But we never got that. I have no idea what Toriyama's writing motivations were at the time and frankly I don't care, what we got was silly regardless of context.
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Re: Why Gohan never "took the reigns" of the story

Post by Peach » Thu Dec 16, 2021 10:29 am

Gohan and Goku fusing to stop Buu would have been a cool ending and a logical route to go after Buu absorbed Gottenks. They could have had Buu absorb Vegeta after the fusion wore off. But for whatever reason, Tori made Gohan get absorbed and have no role in the Kid Buu fight.

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Re: Why Gohan never "took the reigns" of the story

Post by Peach » Thu Dec 16, 2021 10:31 am

I don't know about you guys, but I always liked the little saga before Buu where Gohan was the great Saiyaman and balancing his school life with being a hero. I would have loved more of that. There was always story possibilities for Gohan to get serious or involved with a major conflict. Hope to see this stuff in the new movie, with Goku taking more of a back seat.

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Re: Why Gohan never "took the reigns" of the story

Post by BootyCheeksJohnson » Thu Dec 30, 2021 1:50 pm

jjgp1112 wrote: Sun Dec 12, 2021 1:46 am See, the thing is, as much as I like the idea of Gohan getting the ball and just failing to run with it and thus forcing Goku to asusme responsibility...the story never actually elaborates on any of this. Like, it never even attempts to, and thus you're left with a completely unresolved character arc because Toriyama shoddily switches gears. None of these themes even get addressed until Super. The story builds Gohan up, tosses him aside...and that's it. There's no follow-up that would actually give his failure meaning.

Ultimately, the fans can only add in all that seasoning itself, because as far as the text goes, it might as well have never happened.
I have a feeling that Toriyama wanted to be bold and did genuinely want to do something new with Dragon Ball, but he realized halfway through that writing Gohan was very different from writing Goku, and he didn't like being out of his comfort zone. Because Toriyama did Dragon Ball for nearly 10 years on a weekly basis I can understand him just feeling tired towards the end and phoning it in, or wanting to change things drastically, but it feels like his heart wasn't in it so he went back to his comfort zone of being with Goku. (That doesn't make up for all the faults of the Boo saga.)
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Re: Why Gohan never "took the reigns" of the story

Post by BWri » Thu Dec 30, 2021 3:24 pm

Peach wrote: Thu Dec 16, 2021 10:31 am I don't know about you guys, but I always liked the little saga before Buu where Gohan was the great Saiyaman and balancing his school life with being a hero. I would have loved more of that. There was always story possibilities for Gohan to get serious or involved with a major conflict. Hope to see this stuff in the new movie, with Goku taking more of a back seat.
Yeah, for me this was young "adult" Gohan at his finest. I also liked how the anime staff fleshed this section out even more. Gohan also had some of his best and original gi around this time (practice gi and Saiyaman costume)
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Re: Why Gohan never "took the reigns" of the story

Post by Ultimate_Nova_X » Mon Jan 03, 2022 4:09 pm

This is why I maintain the view that the series should've ended at the Cell saga.

Gohan defeating Cell is symbolic to surpassing the entire last generation.

Not to mention, Toriyama didn't have an editor for the Buu saga.

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Re: Why Gohan never "took the reigns" of the story

Post by nonono » Mon Jan 03, 2022 4:51 pm

I think Toriyama just enjoys writting Goku's character more

Gohan had his moment, and it was nice
But to be honest I dont think the character is charismatic enough to carry the whole show

Goku has been the show since the beggining, and yes he was a kid with no parents but he also was not afraid of anything, love adventures and learning new things, knowing new people etc

If anything Goten shows a personality that is more similar to Kid Goku, but we all know they wont do anything with Goten now so that was a wasted oportunity

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Re: Why Gohan never "took the reigns" of the story

Post by fleahop » Wed Jan 05, 2022 8:30 am

nonono wrote: Mon Jan 03, 2022 4:51 pm I think Toriyama just enjoys writting Goku's character more

Gohan had his moment, and it was nice
But to be honest I dont think the character is charismatic enough to carry the whole show

Goku has been the show since the beggining, and yes he was a kid with no parents but he also was not afraid of anything, love adventures and learning new things, knowing new people etc

If anything Goten shows a personality that is more similar to Kid Goku, but we all know they wont do anything with Goten now so that was a wasted oportunity
I see Goten a little different now that I've gotten older. While yes he is like Goku in his crazy talent for picking up techniques and looks just like him, there's a huge crucial element that's different. He has a family. A loving, caring family. He is growing up mostly in peace time with a friend as well. Goku and even Gohan didn't get these things. It's actually kinda nice to me that they're letting the kid actually be a kid.

As for why Gohan isn't the lead? Gohan was a tragic kid and is now growing up happy. His story was mostly told.

Goku is a force of nature.
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Re: Why Gohan never "took the reigns" of the story

Post by capsulecorp » Thu Jan 06, 2022 1:21 pm

fleahop wrote: Wed Jan 05, 2022 8:30 am
nonono wrote: Mon Jan 03, 2022 4:51 pm I think Toriyama just enjoys writting Goku's character more

Gohan had his moment, and it was nice
But to be honest I dont think the character is charismatic enough to carry the whole show

Goku has been the show since the beggining, and yes he was a kid with no parents but he also was not afraid of anything, love adventures and learning new things, knowing new people etc

If anything Goten shows a personality that is more similar to Kid Goku, but we all know they wont do anything with Goten now so that was a wasted oportunity
I see Goten a little different now that I've gotten older. While yes he is like Goku in his crazy talent for picking up techniques and looks just like him, there's a huge crucial element that's different. He has a family. A loving, caring family. He is growing up mostly in peace time with a friend as well. Goku and even Gohan didn't get these things. It's actually kinda nice to me that they're letting the kid actually be a kid.

As for why Gohan isn't the lead? Gohan was a tragic kid and is now growing up happy. His story was mostly told.

Goku is a force of nature.
Exactly right. Goten and Gohan's personalities are not "missed opportunities" or "Toriyama getting bored", they are logical outcomes due to their family situation and environments. Furthermore, they are reflected by and commented on by other characters in the story in a very deliberate manner, as I mentioned in the OP.

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Re: Why Gohan never "took the reigns" of the story

Post by NickLord » Thu Jan 06, 2022 4:20 pm

The wasting of Gohan is the single worst thing about the Buu saga and Gohan's character has never fully recovered from it. There's no point in writing a character with so much potential if they're never gonna actually use it. Even if Gohan never wanted to be a fighter (which is a bad defense of the character's direction after the Cell Games), him not developing into a more proactive lead is the crux of the problem. Both Totally Not Mark & Plague of Gripes explained it perfectly.

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Re: Why Gohan never "took the reigns" of the story

Post by capsulecorp » Thu Jan 06, 2022 4:45 pm

NickLord wrote: Thu Jan 06, 2022 4:20 pm The wasting of Gohan is the single worst thing about the Buu saga and Gohan's character has never fully recovered from it. There's no point in writing a character with so much potential if they're never gonna actually use it. Even if Gohan never wanted to be a fighter (which is a bad defense of the character's direction after the Cell Games), him not developing into a more proactive lead is the crux of the problem. Both Totally Not Mark & Plague of Gripes explained it perfectly.
I couldn't disagree more. I actually think Totally Not Mark is particularly off-base when it comes to those topic, and the Buu arc more broadly.

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Re: Why Gohan never "took the reigns" of the story

Post by NickLord » Thu Jan 06, 2022 8:11 pm

capsulecorp wrote: Thu Jan 06, 2022 4:45 pm
NickLord wrote: Thu Jan 06, 2022 4:20 pm The wasting of Gohan is the single worst thing about the Buu saga and Gohan's character has never fully recovered from it. There's no point in writing a character with so much potential if they're never gonna actually use it. Even if Gohan never wanted to be a fighter (which is a bad defense of the character's direction after the Cell Games), him not developing into a more proactive lead is the crux of the problem. Both Totally Not Mark & Plague of Gripes explained it perfectly.
I couldn't disagree more. I actually think Totally Not Mark is particularly off-base when it comes to those topic, and the Buu arc more broadly.
How is he off-base when he's basically right about Gohan as a character?

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Re: Why Gohan never "took the reigns" of the story

Post by capsulecorp » Thu Jan 06, 2022 9:01 pm

NickLord wrote: Thu Jan 06, 2022 8:11 pm
capsulecorp wrote: Thu Jan 06, 2022 4:45 pm
NickLord wrote: Thu Jan 06, 2022 4:20 pm The wasting of Gohan is the single worst thing about the Buu saga and Gohan's character has never fully recovered from it. There's no point in writing a character with so much potential if they're never gonna actually use it. Even if Gohan never wanted to be a fighter (which is a bad defense of the character's direction after the Cell Games), him not developing into a more proactive lead is the crux of the problem. Both Totally Not Mark & Plague of Gripes explained it perfectly.
I couldn't disagree more. I actually think Totally Not Mark is particularly off-base when it comes to those topic, and the Buu arc more broadly.
How is he off-base when he's basically right about Gohan as a character?
That's dangerously circular! Are you really asking me "how is he wrong when he is right?"?

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Re: Why Gohan never "took the reigns" of the story

Post by NickLord » Thu Jan 06, 2022 11:24 pm

capsulecorp wrote: Thu Jan 06, 2022 9:01 pm
NickLord wrote: Thu Jan 06, 2022 8:11 pm
capsulecorp wrote: Thu Jan 06, 2022 4:45 pm

I couldn't disagree more. I actually think Totally Not Mark is particularly off-base when it comes to those topic, and the Buu arc more broadly.
How is he off-base when he's basically right about Gohan as a character?
That's dangerously circular! Are you really asking me "how is he wrong when he is right?"?
That's not circular reasoning, and you didn't explain how Totally Not Mark and others are supposedly wrong.

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Re: Why Gohan never "took the reigns" of the story

Post by capsulecorp » Fri Jan 07, 2022 12:05 pm

NickLord wrote: Thu Jan 06, 2022 11:24 pm
capsulecorp wrote: Thu Jan 06, 2022 9:01 pm
NickLord wrote: Thu Jan 06, 2022 8:11 pm

How is he off-base when he's basically right about Gohan as a character?
That's dangerously circular! Are you really asking me "how is he wrong when he is right?"?
That's not circular reasoning, and you didn't explain how Totally Not Mark and others are supposedly wrong.
Well, the OP of this thread is all about some very important themes in the Buu arc that Totally Not Mark completely missed.

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Re: Why Gohan never "took the reigns" of the story

Post by NickLord » Fri Jan 07, 2022 7:14 pm

capsulecorp wrote: Fri Jan 07, 2022 12:05 pm
NickLord wrote: Thu Jan 06, 2022 11:24 pm
capsulecorp wrote: Thu Jan 06, 2022 9:01 pm

That's dangerously circular! Are you really asking me "how is he wrong when he is right?"?
That's not circular reasoning, and you didn't explain how Totally Not Mark and others are supposedly wrong.
Well, the OP of this thread is all about some very important themes in the Buu arc that Totally Not Mark completely missed.
Dragonball as a whole isn't really written with themes in mind, Toriyama himself said so. And the Buu saga doesn't have any themes or message at all, fans are just projecting things that aren't there.

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Re: Why Gohan never "took the reigns" of the story

Post by capsulecorp » Fri Jan 07, 2022 7:51 pm

NickLord wrote: Fri Jan 07, 2022 7:14 pm
capsulecorp wrote: Fri Jan 07, 2022 12:05 pm
NickLord wrote: Thu Jan 06, 2022 11:24 pm

That's not circular reasoning, and you didn't explain how Totally Not Mark and others are supposedly wrong.
Well, the OP of this thread is all about some very important themes in the Buu arc that Totally Not Mark completely missed.
Dragonball as a whole isn't really written with themes in mind, Toriyama himself said so. And the Buu saga doesn't have any themes or message at all, fans are just projecting things that aren't there.
Ah, well, I think we should be careful not to take Toriyama too literally. He also says "I make no plans, I write issue to issue" and this is obviously untrue. He likes to project an image of himself as a whimsical, carefree spirit who doesn't take his work too seriously, because he wants the work to feel "light" and easy to approach and understand. However, this is, to some degree, just a pose.

Regardless, even if a writer attempts to write a story without themes, they emerge naturally. Any story that is at all compelling has an architecture of meaning holding it up.

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Re: Why Gohan never "took the reigns" of the story

Post by Vijay » Sat Jan 15, 2022 3:07 pm

Gohan's an interesting case

Tbh, any primary & secondary Dragonball character could have an anime spinoff or star as lead in their own anime series. AT has infused so much soul & potential in his characters

Gohan is not an exception. He tried to carve distinct identity for himself & his growth frm crybaby to strongest fighter in universe is...as said, he could easily star brand new show.

DragonBall is Goku's show.

That much is certain. Toriyama has time & again proved it. The man himself said it in an interview...which I dont wish to reiterate here cuz ya know..I dont wanna hurt Gohan fans considerin dude's rumored to be star of upcomin dbs film.

When the author or creator himself said so...whats there to debate/argue? I mean, I personally was not a Gohan fan. Up until his SSJ2 transformation, I never felt Gohan was a "character". Dude's...just there...in the background occasionally playing an active role like becomin Oozaru in Saiyan Arc or SSJ2 in CG. I couldnt even stand his Great Saiyaman gig (that lasted less than 5 episode)

Suprisingly, I started to admire his growth as said his intention to help others while balancing his life as a student & superhero. Thats cool writing.

As with most characters in Majin Arc or DB in general, Gohan could've been given something cool to do, hence his showdown with Majin Boo would've seemed earned.

Upon rewatchin DBZ, somehow started appreciatin Gohan's role in Saiyan/Namek/Frieza Arc. Dude's been constantly pushed into battle & war & when it was finally over (for 7 years) dude took a break & ultimately it weighed down on him...genius writing on Toriyama's part & simply seems inevitable as its natural part of the process

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