Why Gohan never "took the reigns" of the story

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Re: Why Gohan never "took the reigns" of the story

Post by DBZAOTA482 » Wed Jan 19, 2022 11:45 am

With the way Toriyama tosses Gohan to the side, I don’t get why he built him up to be something amazing in the first place.

We're reminding from day one Gohan has more potential than any Z-Warrior and Toriyama just has him do nothing with it.
fadeddreams5 wrote:
DBZGTKOSDH wrote:... Haven't we already gotten these in GT? Goku dies, the DBs go away, and the Namekian DBs most likely won't be used again because of the Evil Dragons.
Goku didn't die in GT. The show sucked him off so much, it was impossible to keep him in the world of the living, so he ascended beyond mortality.
jjgp1112 wrote: Sat Jul 18, 2020 6:31 am I'm just about done with the concept of reboots and making shows that were products of their time and impactful "new and sexy" and in line with modern tastes and sensibilities. Let stuff stay in their era and give today's kids their own shit to watch.

I always side eye the people who say "Now my kids/today's kids can experience what I did as a child!" Nigga, who gives a fuck about your childhood? You're an adult now and it was at least 15 years ago. Let the kids have their own experience instead of picking at a corpse.

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Re: Why Gohan never "took the reigns" of the story

Post by capsulecorp » Wed Jan 19, 2022 2:56 pm

DBZAOTA482 wrote: Wed Jan 19, 2022 11:45 am With the way Toriyama tosses Gohan to the side, I don’t get why he built him up to be something amazing in the first place.

We're reminding from day one Gohan has more potential than any Z-Warrior and Toriyama just has him do nothing with it.
Read the OP. Gohan's story is not one of being "built up to be something amazing" - in fact, he's amazing at birth, with ridiculously high power levels even as a small child. Gohan's story is about privilege.

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Re: Why Gohan never "took the reigns" of the story

Post by NickLord » Fri Jan 21, 2022 1:35 am

capsulecorp wrote: Wed Jan 19, 2022 2:56 pm
DBZAOTA482 wrote: Wed Jan 19, 2022 11:45 am With the way Toriyama tosses Gohan to the side, I don’t get why he built him up to be something amazing in the first place.

We're reminding from day one Gohan has more potential than any Z-Warrior and Toriyama just has him do nothing with it.
Read the OP. Gohan's story is not one of being "built up to be something amazing" - in fact, he's amazing at birth, with ridiculously high power levels even as a small child. Gohan's story is about privilege.
That sounds like a bad fan rationalization for how Gohan turned out Post-Cell. It doesn't hold up and its another example of people projecting themes that aren't actually there.

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Re: Why Gohan never "took the reigns" of the story

Post by capsulecorp » Fri Jan 21, 2022 12:07 pm

NickLord wrote: Fri Jan 21, 2022 1:35 am
capsulecorp wrote: Wed Jan 19, 2022 2:56 pm
DBZAOTA482 wrote: Wed Jan 19, 2022 11:45 am With the way Toriyama tosses Gohan to the side, I don’t get why he built him up to be something amazing in the first place.

We're reminding from day one Gohan has more potential than any Z-Warrior and Toriyama just has him do nothing with it.
Read the OP. Gohan's story is not one of being "built up to be something amazing" - in fact, he's amazing at birth, with ridiculously high power levels even as a small child. Gohan's story is about privilege.
That sounds like a bad fan rationalization for how Gohan turned out Post-Cell. It doesn't hold up and its another example of people projecting themes that aren't actually there.
Can you be more specific? Everything in the OP has evidence in the text.

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Re: Why Gohan never "took the reigns" of the story

Post by MrGohanks » Thu Mar 10, 2022 4:48 am

Regardless of Gohan's intended direction day 1, it seems like he's certainly "taking the reigns" in the upcoming movie at least.

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Re: Why Gohan never "took the reigns" of the story

Post by ChronoTwigger » Fri Mar 11, 2022 8:28 pm

Gohan was put aside as, after a while, he started to occupy the same place on stage than Goku - the positive hero.
Having two characters serving the same purpose (in narrative sense) sound, feel and end bad all the times.
We can say that was Goku himself that pushed Gohan away from spotlight. You have to pick one, and guess who won the lottery.
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Re: Why Gohan never "took the reigns" of the story

Post by Lukmendes » Sun Mar 13, 2022 2:21 am

Toriyama was a directionless mess with Gohan.

First he's a kid with pretty good potential, which didn't amount to anything big in saiyan or Namek sagas, and even though he trained with Goku and Piccolo for 3 years, nothing was pointed out about his potential for a while, even though 3 years of training should've made him pretty awesome, but it didn't, and he did nothing of note for most of the story.

Then he trains with Goku for an year, he suddenly outclasses everyone, but is also suddenly a pacifist, which, makes no sense with what was established of his character before, or after this, and it's seriously questionable for Goku to decide to make Gohan become Earth's defender when it was just established that Gohan is a pacifist, it also makes no sense for Goku to leave Earth with him feeling he's a doom magnet, when we have Trunks' own damn future showing exactly what happens when Goku is not around... All around awkward.

Then Gohan has a brief stint as a protagonist, and, it's an honest attempt at having someone else be the protagonist, but Toriyama quickly drops that, brings Goku back, and we have a scene where Gohan wants to fight Dabura... So much for pacifist... Then Goku takes over and Gohan is quietly moved aside.

About the biggest thing that could indicate that Gohan could still be a protagonist for the story is him being away while Boo was attacking Earth, since that's a cliché Toriyama did pretty often with Goku, have him being away, other characters get beaten up by villains, Goku arrives and punches the villain in the face, Gohan having his potential unlocked, and being far stronger than Boo once he arrives, isn't that different from what happens with Goku, but then Gohan loses and Goku and Vegeta have to pick up his slack.

The problem is that Toriyama obviously prefers to write Goku, so Gohan can't take over for long because of that.

There isn't even an in-universe excuse for Goku to take over again, if anything it's controversial, Goku was being a moron with that "Next generation has to take over" in Boo saga, then when the characters get the Namekian dragon balls and resurrect everyone, while Goku suggests to teleport Gohan, Goten and Trunks to fight Boo, Vegeta dismisses the idea says they should use Spirit Bomb, which, Goku has no reason to agree with this, since the much stronger Gohan would be a safer bet lol.

So yeah, short version, Toriyama didn't really know what to do with the character and just brought back Goku, and didn't really make an excuse for it to happen (Like he did to make Gohan replace Goku, even if that one has questionable logic), he juse made Goku come back and that's that.
jjgp1112 wrote: Sat Mar 12, 2022 12:08 am My man, all Goku had to do was go SSJ3 and shock Vegeta so much the M on his head would have turned into an L and Buu would have never happened.

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Re: Why Gohan never "took the reigns" of the story

Post by capsulecorp » Wed Mar 16, 2022 11:31 pm

Lukmendes wrote: Sun Mar 13, 2022 2:21 am Toriyama was a directionless mess with Gohan.
It only feels directionless because the only angles you're examining the story from are those of "power" and "potential". Gohan's story was never about power - he is born with way more power than he knows what to do with, or even wants. Look at the Buu arc again from the perspective of family and Gohan (not to mention Goten, Trunks, Buu, Bibidi, Babidi and others) will make a lot more sense.

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Re: Why Gohan never "took the reigns" of the story

Post by Lukmendes » Thu Mar 17, 2022 1:21 am

capsulecorp wrote: Wed Mar 16, 2022 11:31 pm It only feels directionless because the only angles you're examining the story from are those of "power" and "potential". Gohan's story was never about power - he is born with way more power than he knows what to do with, or even wants. Look at the Buu arc again from the perspective of family and Gohan (not to mention Goten, Trunks, Buu, Bibidi, Babidi and others) will make a lot more sense.
Toriyama suddenly made Gohan into a pacifist when he showed absolutely no traits of that before, or after fighting Cell, to the point that he actually wanted to fight Dabura in Boo saga.

It's also very weird for him to accept how Goku decided to make him into Earth's protector when Gohan, pacifist or not, would rather be a scholar.

Stuff like that is why I find him to be a directionless mess, Toriyama was trying to come up with stuff for Gohan, didn't stick to landing, he gave up, Boo saga brought Goku back as a protagonist and Gohan was sidelined.
jjgp1112 wrote: Sat Mar 12, 2022 12:08 am My man, all Goku had to do was go SSJ3 and shock Vegeta so much the M on his head would have turned into an L and Buu would have never happened.

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Re: Why Gohan never "took the reigns" of the story

Post by capsulecorp » Thu Mar 17, 2022 1:26 am

Lukmendes wrote: Thu Mar 17, 2022 1:21 am Toriyama suddenly made Gohan into a pacifist when he showed absolutely no traits of that before, or after fighting Cell, to the point that he actually wanted to fight Dabura in Boo saga.

It's also very weird for him to accept how Goku decided to make him into Earth's protector when Gohan, pacifist or not, would rather be a scholar.

Stuff like that is why I find him to be a directionless mess, Toriyama was trying to come up with stuff for Gohan, didn't stick to landing, he gave up, Boo saga brought Goku back as a protagonist and Gohan was sidelined.
Gohan doesn't seek out conflict, but he becomes angry and will fight when his friends are in danger or have suffered. This is established very early and is very consistent.

It's true that it's weird for Goku to try to push him into fighting and protecting the earth, that's why the scene where Piccolo dresses Goku down about this is one of the most effective in the entire Cell arc. It's not inconsistent though - Goku IS weird, and Goku doesn't understand his son.

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Re: Why Gohan never "took the reigns" of the story

Post by Lukmendes » Thu Mar 17, 2022 4:23 am

capsulecorp wrote: Thu Mar 17, 2022 1:26 am Gohan doesn't seek out conflict, but he becomes angry and will fight when his friends are in danger or have suffered. This is established very early and is very consistent.
He doesn't seek out conflict but he doesn't seem to actually mind fighting that much, considering that, besides being scared to fight in saiyan saga, before fighting Cell he's never shown having a problem having to fight.
It's true that it's weird for Goku to try to push him into fighting and protecting the earth, that's why the scene where Piccolo dresses Goku down about this is one of the most effective in the entire Cell arc. It's not inconsistent though - Goku IS weird, and Goku doesn't understand his son.
Well, Piccolo scolds Goku for making Gohan fight Cell alone, so that shows Goku is a lousy parent and he seems to have learned afterwards, then Goku dies, he decides to leave Earth's protection to Gohan, even though we have Gohan's sudden pacifism being established, and no one calls out Goku on forcing this bullshit on Gohan? Gohan's not getting killed this time at least, but it's still a responsibility Gohan doesn't want... Yeah lol.

Goku is a selfish ass who doesn't get people that well, but Piccolo calling him out made him realize he fucked up, then one death later he's deciding to leave everything to Gohan, who's just been established as a pacifist, and no one calls him out on doing that... It's just awkward how both Gohan and Goku were acting at the end of Cell saga.

At the very least, Goku's expecting that him not being around would bring peace, even though you have to ignore how him being dead is what caused Future Trunks' timeline going to shit, and he still expects Gohan to be someone to depend on 'cause Gohan is apparently more reliable than Goku... And this is ignoring Gohan's sudden pacifism... Yeah, it's not really well thought.
jjgp1112 wrote: Sat Mar 12, 2022 12:08 am My man, all Goku had to do was go SSJ3 and shock Vegeta so much the M on his head would have turned into an L and Buu would have never happened.

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Re: Why Gohan never "took the reigns" of the story

Post by capsulecorp » Sat Mar 19, 2022 12:47 pm

Lukmendes wrote: Thu Mar 17, 2022 4:23 am Well, Piccolo scolds Goku for making Gohan fight Cell alone, so that shows Goku is a lousy parent and he seems to have learned afterwards,
Piccolo's point is not that Goku is a "bad parent", his point is that Goku doesn't understand that Gohan is not like him, he doesn't live to train and seek out new challenges and fight. His point is that Goku doesn't understand how Gohan is feeling in that moment.
Lukmendes wrote: Thu Mar 17, 2022 4:23 am Goku is a selfish ass who doesn't get people that well, but Piccolo calling him out made him realize he fucked up, then one death later he's deciding to leave everything to Gohan, who's just been established as a pacifist, and no one calls him out on doing that... It's just awkward how both Gohan and Goku were acting at the end of Cell saga.
It's been some time since I've read that scene, so I actually went back and took a look. Here's the panels:

Image

It actually sounds a lot more like his point about Gohan being "dependable" is directed to Chi Chi! As in, Gohan is more reliable and better at supporting the family. Which... is obviously true.

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Re: Why Gohan never "took the reigns" of the story

Post by Lukmendes » Sat Mar 19, 2022 4:14 pm

capsulecorp wrote: Sat Mar 19, 2022 12:47 pm Piccolo's point is not that Goku is a "bad parent", his point is that Goku doesn't understand that Gohan is not like him, he doesn't live to train and seek out new challenges and fight. His point is that Goku doesn't understand how Gohan is feeling in that moment.
Yeah that reads "bad parent" even without mentioning the part where he threw the senzu to Cell, 'cause Gohan was clearly suffering there and Goku needed Piccolo to tell him so lol.

As much as Goku's parenting skills get overhated by the fandom, the way he acted during Cell games doesn't have a lot of excuses and it's as bad as it gets for him, throwing the senzu to Cell and not caring that much about his own son getting hurt, yeah...
It's been some time since I've read that scene, so I actually went back and took a look. Here's the panels:

Image

It actually sounds a lot more like his point about Gohan being "dependable" is directed to Chi Chi! As in, Gohan is more reliable and better at supporting the family. Which... is obviously true.
Yeah I actually got this impression too when I checked out Viz's translation, but I watched a subbed version of this episode (192) and what Goku says there is "And so, maybe it ain't fair to Chi Chi and Gohan, but you don't need to bring me back to life. Gohan's already a lot more reliable than I am.", and in that case it sounds like Goku is saying Gohan is more reliable in general, which, can sound more like Goku, another translation I saw has him saying at the end "Now everyone can rely on Gohan.".

I don't know which one is the correct one, and even Viz's translation has a debatable meaning, but if he's saying Gohan is more reliable to take care of his family, then it's the least bad possibility, which can line up with his expectation that him not being around will make villains stop showing up, but if he means that Gohan is more reliable for everyone else to take care of him, then uh, yeah, he's expecting Gohan to be there in case a villain shows up, meaning he learned jack shit.
jjgp1112 wrote: Sat Mar 12, 2022 12:08 am My man, all Goku had to do was go SSJ3 and shock Vegeta so much the M on his head would have turned into an L and Buu would have never happened.

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Re: Why Gohan never "took the reigns" of the story

Post by capsulecorp » Sat Mar 19, 2022 5:55 pm

Lukmendes wrote: Sat Mar 19, 2022 4:14 pm Yeah that reads "bad parent" even without mentioning the part where he threw the senzu to Cell, 'cause Gohan was clearly suffering there and Goku needed Piccolo to tell him so lol.

As much as Goku's parenting skills get overhated by the fandom, the way he acted during Cell games doesn't have a lot of excuses and it's as bad as it gets for him, throwing the senzu to Cell and not caring that much about his own son getting hurt, yeah...
Sure, yeah I think the "Goku is a bad dad" thing is defensible but sort of boring compared to what I think is actually going on in the story. My point is that Piccolo isn't trying to tell Goku he's a bad parent, he's just concerned about Gohan and realizes that he understands Gohan's thoughts and feelings better than Goku does.

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