Are the Saiyans Massively faster than light by the time of Super?

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Re: Are the Saiyans Massively faster than light by the time of Super?

Post by miguelnuva1 » Fri Jan 07, 2022 12:56 am

Everytime I hear someone say FTL speeds I remind everyone the Cell games cameras were tracking Goku vs Cell and Hercule was watching Goku vs Kid Buu.

Goku vs Beerus is the first time the Z fighters worry about losing someone.

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Re: Are the Saiyans Massively faster than light by the time of Super?

Post by NickLord » Fri Jan 07, 2022 3:34 am

miguelnuva1 wrote: Fri Jan 07, 2022 12:56 am Everytime I hear someone say FTL speeds I remind everyone the Cell games cameras were tracking Goku vs Cell and Hercule was watching Goku vs Kid Buu.

Goku vs Beerus is the first time the Z fighters worry about losing someone.
Actually, the series made it a point that Gohan was the only person who could see the full Goku vs Cell fight because it was too fast for everyone else. They actually showed what the cameras saw in a scene during the Cell Games and they couldn't capture Goku & Cell's fight at all, just a bunch of black lines everywhere.

Hercule couldn't see Goku vs Kid Buu at all, in fact he kept on saying "what the hell is going on, where did they go" as the fight was going on.

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Re: Are the Saiyans Massively faster than light by the time of Super?

Post by Hugo Boss » Fri Jan 07, 2022 8:21 am

NickLord wrote: Thu Jan 06, 2022 11:15 pm
Hugo Boss wrote: Thu Jan 06, 2022 9:11 pm I would say just because some ki attacks look like some laser light or flash, it doesn’t mean they are as fast as light.

Actually, Dyspo is the first one to have actually reach that kind of feat (and even that is anime-only). I would argue Jiren and Ultra Instinct Goku may be comparable.
You can measure how fast an attack is by seeing how fast it gets from A to B. For example, Piccolo blowing up the Moon in a few seconds is an almost FTL feat. There's plenty of other feats & statements throughout the Z anime, Super in general and to a lesser extent the original manga that go beyond that, so the notion that Dyspo is the first FTL character makes zero sense, especially when there's characters in the ToP itself shown to be faster than him.
How do you know how much time it passed between Piccolo’s ki blast being launched and it hitting the moon? I’ve seen this argument being brought up before and never understood why it’s being used.

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Re: Are the Saiyans Massively faster than light by the time of Super?

Post by miguelnuva1 » Fri Jan 07, 2022 4:24 pm

NickLord wrote: Fri Jan 07, 2022 3:34 am
miguelnuva1 wrote: Fri Jan 07, 2022 12:56 am Everytime I hear someone say FTL speeds I remind everyone the Cell games cameras were tracking Goku vs Cell and Hercule was watching Goku vs Kid Buu.

Goku vs Beerus is the first time the Z fighters worry about losing someone.
Actually, the series made it a point that Gohan was the only person who could see the full Goku vs Cell fight because it was too fast for everyone else. They actually showed what the cameras saw in a scene during the Cell Games and they couldn't capture Goku & Cell's fight at all, just a bunch of black lines everywhere.

Hercule couldn't see Goku vs Kid Buu at all, in fact he kept on saying "what the hell is going on, where did they go" as the fight was going on.
The Cameramen are moving to right where Goku and Cell where as if they just missed them. Humans can't react that quickly to lightspeed.

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Re: Are the Saiyans Massively faster than light by the time of Super?

Post by NickLord » Fri Jan 07, 2022 7:10 pm

miguelnuva1 wrote: Fri Jan 07, 2022 4:24 pm
NickLord wrote: Fri Jan 07, 2022 3:34 am
miguelnuva1 wrote: Fri Jan 07, 2022 12:56 am Everytime I hear someone say FTL speeds I remind everyone the Cell games cameras were tracking Goku vs Cell and Hercule was watching Goku vs Kid Buu.

Goku vs Beerus is the first time the Z fighters worry about losing someone.
Actually, the series made it a point that Gohan was the only person who could see the full Goku vs Cell fight because it was too fast for everyone else. They actually showed what the cameras saw in a scene during the Cell Games and they couldn't capture Goku & Cell's fight at all, just a bunch of black lines everywhere.

Hercule couldn't see Goku vs Kid Buu at all, in fact he kept on saying "what the hell is going on, where did they go" as the fight was going on.
The Cameramen are moving to right where Goku and Cell where as if they just missed them. Humans can't react that quickly to lightspeed.
Watch the seen again. The camera was actually moving in the opposite of how Goku & Cell were actually moving as if they couldn't tell where they actually are.

Either way, people actually do react to light itself that way after it hits something, so your argument doesn't work either way.

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Re: Are the Saiyans Massively faster than light by the time of Super?

Post by NickLord » Fri Jan 07, 2022 7:12 pm

Hugo Boss wrote: Fri Jan 07, 2022 8:21 am
NickLord wrote: Thu Jan 06, 2022 11:15 pm
Hugo Boss wrote: Thu Jan 06, 2022 9:11 pm I would say just because some ki attacks look like some laser light or flash, it doesn’t mean they are as fast as light.

Actually, Dyspo is the first one to have actually reach that kind of feat (and even that is anime-only). I would argue Jiren and Ultra Instinct Goku may be comparable.
You can measure how fast an attack is by seeing how fast it gets from A to B. For example, Piccolo blowing up the Moon in a few seconds is an almost FTL feat. There's plenty of other feats & statements throughout the Z anime, Super in general and to a lesser extent the original manga that go beyond that, so the notion that Dyspo is the first FTL character makes zero sense, especially when there's characters in the ToP itself shown to be faster than him.
How do you know how much time it passed between Piccolo’s ki blast being launched and it hitting the moon? I’ve seen this argument being brought up before and never understood why it’s being used.
Just watch the scene, its almost instantaneous how he blows it up in the manga and in the anime its literally about 4 seconds in real time as he blasts the Moon.

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Re: Are the Saiyans Massively faster than light by the time of Super?

Post by miguelnuva1 » Fri Jan 07, 2022 9:07 pm

NickLord wrote: Fri Jan 07, 2022 7:10 pm
miguelnuva1 wrote: Fri Jan 07, 2022 4:24 pm
NickLord wrote: Fri Jan 07, 2022 3:34 am

Actually, the series made it a point that Gohan was the only person who could see the full Goku vs Cell fight because it was too fast for everyone else. They actually showed what the cameras saw in a scene during the Cell Games and they couldn't capture Goku & Cell's fight at all, just a bunch of black lines everywhere.

Hercule couldn't see Goku vs Kid Buu at all, in fact he kept on saying "what the hell is going on, where did they go" as the fight was going on.
The Cameramen are moving to right where Goku and Cell where as if they just missed them. Humans can't react that quickly to lightspeed.
Watch the seen again. The camera was actually moving in the opposite of how Goku & Cell were actually moving as if they couldn't tell where they actually are.

Either way, people actually do react to light itself that way after it hits something, so your argument doesn't work either way.
Humans can't react to something moving at the speed of light. If Goku and Cell are fighting that fast they would have popped up several times before the camera could move once to even think to track them.

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Re: Are the Saiyans Massively faster than light by the time of Super?

Post by Hugo Boss » Sat Jan 08, 2022 7:06 am

NickLord wrote: Fri Jan 07, 2022 7:12 pm
Hugo Boss wrote: Fri Jan 07, 2022 8:21 am
NickLord wrote: Thu Jan 06, 2022 11:15 pm
You can measure how fast an attack is by seeing how fast it gets from A to B. For example, Piccolo blowing up the Moon in a few seconds is an almost FTL feat. There's plenty of other feats & statements throughout the Z anime, Super in general and to a lesser extent the original manga that go beyond that, so the notion that Dyspo is the first FTL character makes zero sense, especially when there's characters in the ToP itself shown to be faster than him.
How do you know how much time it passed between Piccolo’s ki blast being launched and it hitting the moon? I’ve seen this argument being brought up before and never understood why it’s being used.
Just watch the scene, its almost instantaneous how he blows it up in the manga and in the anime its literally about 4 seconds in real time as he blasts the Moon.
I’m not seeing how this proves anything. Real time doesn’t correlate with manga panels or anime time stamps.

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Re: Are the Saiyans Massively faster than light by the time of Super?

Post by The Monkey King » Sat Jan 08, 2022 12:19 pm

Hugo Boss wrote: Sat Jan 08, 2022 7:06 am
NickLord wrote: Fri Jan 07, 2022 7:12 pm Just watch the scene, its almost instantaneous how he blows it up in the manga and in the anime its literally about 4 seconds in real time as he blasts the Moon.
I’m not seeing how this proves anything. Real time doesn’t correlate with manga panels or anime time stamps.
It's because you're being needlessly pedantic, in the same panel Piccolo fires the ki blast it hits the moon

Image

It may not have a stopwatch timer next to it but... do you not know how comic books work or something? Actions that take place within a single panel indicate that such little time has passed that it effectively happened in the same instance. In the case of Piccolo the ki blast travelled a distance of 384,400 km, if someone wants to use it as proof of FTL speeds I can see the reasoning behind it.

Would you seriously look at this panel of Vegeta and think "For all we know Vegeta took 5 minutes to punch Recoome!" :lol:

Image
Actually, Dyspo is the first one to have actually reach that kind of feat (and even that is anime-only). I would argue Jiren and Ultra Instinct Goku may be comparable.
That would actually be Beerus when he travelled to that Dinosaur planet in two minutes to get some food, making him MFTL pretty casually.

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Re: Are the Saiyans Massively faster than light by the time of Super?

Post by Mac » Sat Jan 08, 2022 1:49 pm

Trying to calculate speed in DB is gonna be a bad time, it's too all over the place.

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Re: Are the Saiyans Massively faster than light by the time of Super?

Post by NickLord » Sat Jan 08, 2022 5:23 pm

miguelnuva1 wrote: Fri Jan 07, 2022 9:07 pm
NickLord wrote: Fri Jan 07, 2022 7:10 pm
miguelnuva1 wrote: Fri Jan 07, 2022 4:24 pm

The Cameramen are moving to right where Goku and Cell where as if they just missed them. Humans can't react that quickly to lightspeed.
Watch the seen again. The camera was actually moving in the opposite of how Goku & Cell were actually moving as if they couldn't tell where they actually are.

Either way, people actually do react to light itself that way after it hits something, so your argument doesn't work either way.
Humans can't react to something moving at the speed of light. If Goku and Cell are fighting that fast they would have popped up several times before the camera could move once to even think to track them.
Which is exactly what happened during the camera scene, its obvious you don't remember the Cell Games and just want to downplay lol.

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Re: Are the Saiyans Massively faster than light by the time of Super?

Post by NickLord » Sat Jan 08, 2022 5:25 pm

The Monkey King wrote: Sat Jan 08, 2022 12:19 pm
Hugo Boss wrote: Sat Jan 08, 2022 7:06 am
NickLord wrote: Fri Jan 07, 2022 7:12 pm Just watch the scene, its almost instantaneous how he blows it up in the manga and in the anime its literally about 4 seconds in real time as he blasts the Moon.
I’m not seeing how this proves anything. Real time doesn’t correlate with manga panels or anime time stamps.
It's because you're being needlessly pedantic, in the same panel Piccolo fires the ki blast it hits the moon

Image

It may not have a stopwatch timer next to it but... do you not know how comic books work or something? Actions that take place within a single panel indicate that such little time has passed that it effectively happened in the same instance. In the case of Piccolo the ki blast travelled a distance of 384,400 km, if someone wants to use it as proof of FTL speeds I can see the reasoning behind it.

Would you seriously look at this panel of Vegeta and think "For all we know Vegeta took 5 minutes to punch Recoome!" :lol:

Image
Actually, Dyspo is the first one to have actually reach that kind of feat (and even that is anime-only). I would argue Jiren and Ultra Instinct Goku may be comparable.
That would actually be Beerus when he travelled to that Dinosaur planet in two minutes to get some food, making him MFTL pretty casually.
Couldn't have said it better myself.

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Re: Are the Saiyans Massively faster than light by the time of Super?

Post by Hugo Boss » Sat Jan 08, 2022 5:27 pm

The Monkey King wrote: Sat Jan 08, 2022 12:19 pm It's because you're being needlessly pedantic, in the same panel Piccolo fires the ki blast it hits the moon

Image

It may not have a stopwatch timer next to it but... do you not know how comic books work or something? Actions that take place within a single panel indicate that such little time has passed that it effectively happened in the same instance. In the case of Piccolo the ki blast travelled a distance of 384,400 km, if someone wants to use it as proof of FTL speeds I can see the reasoning behind it.

Would you seriously look at this panel of Vegeta and think "For all we know Vegeta took 5 minutes to punch Recoome!" :lol:
Vegeta and Piccolo’s situations aren’t in any way comparable, since a lot of people stronger than Piccolo would be able to react to that ki blast and still not be capable of faster than light speed movement.

A classic example is when Goku presents instantaneous movement for the first time and everyone agreed it would be impossible for Goku to travel to Muten Roshi’s house in such a short time. Light as we know would be able to make such travel over ten times in a second. That version of Goku is considerably faster than the ki blast that Piccolo fired at the moon.
Actually, Dyspo is the first one to have actually reach that kind of feat (and even that is anime-only). I would argue Jiren and Ultra Instinct Goku may be comparable.

That would actually be Beerus when he travelled to that Dinosaur planet in two minutes to get some food, making him MFTL pretty casually.
I’m only talking about characters below Beerus and Whis vicinity.

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Re: Are the Saiyans Massively faster than light by the time of Super?

Post by NickLord » Sat Jan 08, 2022 10:57 pm

Hugo Boss wrote: Sat Jan 08, 2022 5:27 pm
The Monkey King wrote: Sat Jan 08, 2022 12:19 pm It's because you're being needlessly pedantic, in the same panel Piccolo fires the ki blast it hits the moon

Image

It may not have a stopwatch timer next to it but... do you not know how comic books work or something? Actions that take place within a single panel indicate that such little time has passed that it effectively happened in the same instance. In the case of Piccolo the ki blast travelled a distance of 384,400 km, if someone wants to use it as proof of FTL speeds I can see the reasoning behind it.

Would you seriously look at this panel of Vegeta and think "For all we know Vegeta took 5 minutes to punch Recoome!" :lol:
Vegeta and Piccolo’s situations aren’t in any way comparable, since a lot of people stronger than Piccolo would be able to react to that ki blast and still not be capable of faster than light speed movement.

A classic example is when Goku presents instantaneous movement for the first time and everyone agreed it would be impossible for Goku to travel to Muten Roshi’s house in such a short time. Light as we know would be able to make such travel over ten times in a second. That version of Goku is considerably faster than the ki blast that Piccolo fired at the moon.
Actually, Dyspo is the first one to have actually reach that kind of feat (and even that is anime-only). I would argue Jiren and Ultra Instinct Goku may be comparable.

That would actually be Beerus when he travelled to that Dinosaur planet in two minutes to get some food, making him MFTL pretty casually.
I’m only talking about characters below Beerus and Whis vicinity.
Both manga and anime clearly show that Piccolo's blasted destroyed the Moon in like less than 5 seconds, idk why you are so in denial about this. Keep in mind, Piccolo did this while fighting Great Ape Gohan, who wouldn't just stand there and wait while Piccolo blasts the Moon if it took more than seconds to happen.

Also, Piccolo wasn't even the first to do this, Master Roshi also blew up the Moon in a few seconds in the 1st tournament arc with a Kamehameha.

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Re: Are the Saiyans Massively faster than light by the time of Super?

Post by Hugo Boss » Sat Jan 08, 2022 11:41 pm

It’s not about being in denial or not, it’s just that I don’t think destroying the moon like that is a very good indication of faster than light movement when we have a whole scene describing how a massively stronger and faster version of Goku can’t move to Muten Roshi’s house and return to the location Freeza’s spaceship landed in a matter of seconds.

On top of that we have Gotenks taking a nap while Piccolo was trying to catch him. If Piccolo was faster than light that time, he would have found Gotenks as soon as he stopped. Goku and Vegeta also had plenty time to discuss whether or not use the Potara while Majin Boo was chasing them.

As far as I’ve been on this community I’ve only seen faster than light records coming from spaceships. Dragon Ball Super manga has Jiren claiming he can travel faster than that, so that should at least be a safe call (even Dyspo is baffled at his speed).
Last edited by Hugo Boss on Sun Jan 09, 2022 12:18 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Are the Saiyans Massively faster than light by the time of Super?

Post by miguelnuva1 » Sun Jan 09, 2022 12:17 am

NickLord wrote: Sat Jan 08, 2022 5:23 pm
miguelnuva1 wrote: Fri Jan 07, 2022 9:07 pm
NickLord wrote: Fri Jan 07, 2022 7:10 pm

Watch the seen again. The camera was actually moving in the opposite of how Goku & Cell were actually moving as if they couldn't tell where they actually are.

Either way, people actually do react to light itself that way after it hits something, so your argument doesn't work either way.
Humans can't react to something moving at the speed of light. If Goku and Cell are fighting that fast they would have popped up several times before the camera could move once to even think to track them.
Which is exactly what happened during the camera scene, its obvious you don't remember the Cell Games and just want to downplay lol.
https://youtu.be/W4S4aAfHIHM

23 mins in

The camera is moving almost right behind them and the announcer in addition to asking Hercule what is going on mentions they're faster than the human eye which means they are at a speed where you can try to keep up with them.

Humans can't even attempt to follow something at light speed.

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Re: Are the Saiyans Massively faster than light by the time of Super?

Post by The Monkey King » Sun Jan 09, 2022 10:54 am

miguelnuva1 wrote: Fri Jan 07, 2022 12:56 amEverytime I hear someone say FTL speeds I remind everyone the Cell games cameras were tracking Goku vs Cell and Hercule was watching Goku vs Kid Buu.
Not in the manga, in fact the exact opposite happens:

Image
Goku vs Beerus is the first time the Z fighters worry about losing someone.
Wait... are you serious?? The whole "S-so fast! I can't see anything!?" is such a classic Dragon Ball trope, things like that happen multiple times throughout the series:

Toriyama is just inconsistent with stuff like this, a normal person shouldn't be able to see anything when DBZ characters fight. But when Toriyama wants someone in the audience to react to something in a fight, then all of a sudden they can see it.

It makes no sense that Kami can't perceive the speed of Piccolo vs Goku but then Mr Satan can see some parts of Goku vs Cell, but whatever.
miguelnuva1 wrote: Sun Jan 09, 2022 12:17 am https://youtu.be/W4S4aAfHIHM

23 mins in

The camera is moving almost right behind them and the announcer in addition to asking Hercule what is going on mentions they're faster than the human eye which means they are at a speed where you can try to keep up with them.

Humans can't even attempt to follow something at light speed.
Anime scenes aren't usually considered as a "primary source" but if you want to use it to debunk FTL speed, others can use other scenes to support FTL speed, like how King Kai could track MFTL space ships but couldn't keep track of Goku vs Freeza:

How fast and strong these characters are is so all over the place, that it's pretty much up to interpretation, you can argue what you want but trying to make definitive stances is a huge waste of energy :lol:

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Re: Are the Saiyans Massively faster than light by the time of Super?

Post by NickLord » Sun Jan 09, 2022 3:27 pm

miguelnuva1 wrote: Sun Jan 09, 2022 12:17 am
NickLord wrote: Sat Jan 08, 2022 5:23 pm
miguelnuva1 wrote: Fri Jan 07, 2022 9:07 pm

Humans can't react to something moving at the speed of light. If Goku and Cell are fighting that fast they would have popped up several times before the camera could move once to even think to track them.
Which is exactly what happened during the camera scene, its obvious you don't remember the Cell Games and just want to downplay lol.
https://youtu.be/W4S4aAfHIHM

23 mins in

The camera is moving almost right behind them and the announcer in addition to asking Hercule what is going on mentions they're faster than the human eye which means they are at a speed where you can try to keep up with them.

Humans can't even attempt to follow something at light speed.
"Faster than the human eye" means anything faster than humans can see. If the cameras could keep up with them they would be able see them fight, which they couldn't do at all. You're argument completely fails.

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Re: Are the Saiyans Massively faster than light by the time of Super?

Post by NickLord » Sun Jan 09, 2022 3:34 pm

Hugo Boss wrote: Sat Jan 08, 2022 11:41 pm It’s not about being in denial or not, it’s just that I don’t think destroying the moon like that is a very good indication of faster than light movement when we have a whole scene describing how a massively stronger and faster version of Goku can’t move to Muten Roshi’s house and return to the location Freeza’s spaceship landed in a matter of seconds.

On top of that we have Gotenks taking a nap while Piccolo was trying to catch him. If Piccolo was faster than light that time, he would have found Gotenks as soon as he stopped. Goku and Vegeta also had plenty time to discuss whether or not use the Potara while Majin Boo was chasing them.

As far as I’ve been on this community I’ve only seen faster than light records coming from spaceships. Dragon Ball Super manga has Jiren claiming he can travel faster than that, so that should at least be a safe call (even Dyspo is baffled at his speed).
First of all, you are confusing travel speed with combat speed. Second, Where was it ever doubted that Goku could travel to get Roshi's shades at that amount of time? Third, you are making the false assumption that Piccolo immediately went after Gotenks after he started flying around the world when in reality he only started looking for him a while after latter defused, and the Goku & Vegeta scene with Buuhan is pure plot convenience.

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Re: Are the Saiyans Massively faster than light by the time of Super?

Post by miguelnuva1 » Sun Jan 09, 2022 5:15 pm

NickLord wrote: Sun Jan 09, 2022 3:27 pm
miguelnuva1 wrote: Sun Jan 09, 2022 12:17 am
NickLord wrote: Sat Jan 08, 2022 5:23 pm

Which is exactly what happened during the camera scene, its obvious you don't remember the Cell Games and just want to downplay lol.
https://youtu.be/W4S4aAfHIHM

23 mins in

The camera is moving almost right behind them and the announcer in addition to asking Hercule what is going on mentions they're faster than the human eye which means they are at a speed where you can try to keep up with them.

Humans can't even attempt to follow something at light speed.
"Faster than the human eye" means anything faster than humans can see. If the cameras could keep up with them they would be able see them fight, which they couldn't do at all. You're argument completely fails.
You can reach to something that is too fast to see if you can hear it for example. Their are many levels of too fast to see before you get to lightspeed. If someone was moving at lightspeed around you, you would have no idea where they are.

The camera has a vague idea where Goku and Cell are.

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