Are the Saiyans Massively faster than light by the time of Super?

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Re: Are the Saiyans Massively faster than light by the time of Super?

Post by Hugo Boss » Mon Jan 10, 2022 1:23 pm

NickLord wrote: Sun Jan 09, 2022 3:34 pm
Hugo Boss wrote: Sat Jan 08, 2022 11:41 pm It’s not about being in denial or not, it’s just that I don’t think destroying the moon like that is a very good indication of faster than light movement when we have a whole scene describing how a massively stronger and faster version of Goku can’t move to Muten Roshi’s house and return to the location Freeza’s spaceship landed in a matter of seconds.

On top of that we have Gotenks taking a nap while Piccolo was trying to catch him. If Piccolo was faster than light that time, he would have found Gotenks as soon as he stopped. Goku and Vegeta also had plenty time to discuss whether or not use the Potara while Majin Boo was chasing them.

As far as I’ve been on this community I’ve only seen faster than light records coming from spaceships. Dragon Ball Super manga has Jiren claiming he can travel faster than that, so that should at least be a safe call (even Dyspo is baffled at his speed).
First of all, you are confusing travel speed with combat speed. Second, Where was it ever doubted that Goku could travel to get Roshi's shades at that amount of time? Third, you are making the false assumption that Piccolo immediately went after Gotenks after he started flying around the world when in reality he only started looking for him a while after latter defused, and the Goku & Vegeta scene with Buuhan is pure plot convenience.
It’s totally irrelevant the difference between combat speed and travel speed, since both are used in battle, and we are not debating who is punching or blocking faster, but rather moving faster.

The scene about the introduction of instantaneous movement is blatantly clear. Goku could only prove he could teleport, because that feat was beyond his capability without the technique. Before they realized where he got the glasses, they thought Goku was just deceiving them with quick movement.

Wrong. Piccolo started searching for Gotenks as soon as he left Kami’s temple and reached him before they defused, which happened within the timeframe of 30 minutes. And they had time to take a nap while Piccolo was searching, so it took him at least 10 minutes.

So, let’s excuse a clear indication of slower than light movement because of plot convenience? Boo tried to reach them as fast as he could and even tried to attack them as soon as he spotted them. He obviously had no interest in slowing down.

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Re: Are the Saiyans Massively faster than light by the time of Super?

Post by NickLord » Tue Jan 11, 2022 8:17 pm

Hugo Boss wrote: Mon Jan 10, 2022 1:23 pm
NickLord wrote: Sun Jan 09, 2022 3:34 pm
Hugo Boss wrote: Sat Jan 08, 2022 11:41 pm It’s not about being in denial or not, it’s just that I don’t think destroying the moon like that is a very good indication of faster than light movement when we have a whole scene describing how a massively stronger and faster version of Goku can’t move to Muten Roshi’s house and return to the location Freeza’s spaceship landed in a matter of seconds.

On top of that we have Gotenks taking a nap while Piccolo was trying to catch him. If Piccolo was faster than light that time, he would have found Gotenks as soon as he stopped. Goku and Vegeta also had plenty time to discuss whether or not use the Potara while Majin Boo was chasing them.

As far as I’ve been on this community I’ve only seen faster than light records coming from spaceships. Dragon Ball Super manga has Jiren claiming he can travel faster than that, so that should at least be a safe call (even Dyspo is baffled at his speed).
First of all, you are confusing travel speed with combat speed. Second, Where was it ever doubted that Goku could travel to get Roshi's shades at that amount of time? Third, you are making the false assumption that Piccolo immediately went after Gotenks after he started flying around the world when in reality he only started looking for him a while after latter defused, and the Goku & Vegeta scene with Buuhan is pure plot convenience.
It’s totally irrelevant the difference between combat speed and travel speed, since both are used in battle, and we are not debating who is punching or blocking faster, but rather moving faster.

The scene about the introduction of instantaneous movement is blatantly clear. Goku could only prove he could teleport, because that feat was beyond his capability without the technique. Before they realized where he got the glasses, they thought Goku was just deceiving them with quick movement.

Wrong. Piccolo started searching for Gotenks as soon as he left Kami’s temple and reached him before they defused, which happened within the timeframe of 30 minutes. And they had time to take a nap while Piccolo was searching, so it took him at least 10 minutes.

So, let’s excuse a clear indication of slower than light movement because of plot convenience? Boo tried to reach them as fast as he could and even tried to attack them as soon as he spotted them. He obviously had no interest in slowing down.
Travel and combat speed are not the same thing, and travel speed is mostly irrelevant in a fight.

Your instant transmission argument makes little sense. "they thought Goku was just deceiving them with quick movement.", which implies they thought Goku could move that fast normally, which implies that travel speed normal for them which undermines your argument.

Piccolo only found Gotenks after he woke up from his nap and defused and they left Fat Buu's hideout, which means it was over 30 mins. Piccolo couldn't keep up with Gotenks flying around the Earth multiple times in less than a min (shown in the manga). Actually watch the show bro.

Speed feats aside, the fact that Buuhan didn't just blast Goku & Vegeta as they were arguing about the Potara earrings itself is obviously pure plot convenience, which makes any speed arguments involving that scene worthless.

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Re: Are the Saiyans Massively faster than light by the time of Super?

Post by NickLord » Tue Jan 11, 2022 8:24 pm

miguelnuva1 wrote: Sun Jan 09, 2022 5:15 pm
NickLord wrote: Sun Jan 09, 2022 3:27 pm
miguelnuva1 wrote: Sun Jan 09, 2022 12:17 am

https://youtu.be/W4S4aAfHIHM

23 mins in

The camera is moving almost right behind them and the announcer in addition to asking Hercule what is going on mentions they're faster than the human eye which means they are at a speed where you can try to keep up with them.

Humans can't even attempt to follow something at light speed.
"Faster than the human eye" means anything faster than humans can see. If the cameras could keep up with them they would be able see them fight, which they couldn't do at all. You're argument completely fails.
You can reach to something that is too fast to see if you can hear it for example. Their are many levels of too fast to see before you get to lightspeed. If someone was moving at lightspeed around you, you would have no idea where they are.

The camera has a vague idea where Goku and Cell are.
This is a self-defeating argument because even regular people can track the direction of where light is moving with their eyes, so that doesn't work.

Also, the camera clearly couldn't tell where Goku & Cell actually were as they fight, as the camera would move in one direction while Goku & Cell (shown through speed lines) would move in another.

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Re: Are the Saiyans Massively faster than light by the time of Super?

Post by Hugo Boss » Tue Jan 11, 2022 10:12 pm

NickLord wrote: Tue Jan 11, 2022 8:17 pm
Hugo Boss wrote: Mon Jan 10, 2022 1:23 pm
NickLord wrote: Sun Jan 09, 2022 3:34 pm First of all, you are confusing travel speed with combat speed. Second, Where was it ever doubted that Goku could travel to get Roshi's shades at that amount of time? Third, you are making the false assumption that Piccolo immediately went after Gotenks after he started flying around the world when in reality he only started looking for him a while after latter defused, and the Goku & Vegeta scene with Buuhan is pure plot convenience.
It’s totally irrelevant the difference between combat speed and travel speed, since both are used in battle, and we are not debating who is punching or blocking faster, but rather moving faster.

The scene about the introduction of instantaneous movement is blatantly clear. Goku could only prove he could teleport, because that feat was beyond his capability without the technique. Before they realized where he got the glasses, they thought Goku was just deceiving them with quick movement.

Wrong. Piccolo started searching for Gotenks as soon as he left Kami’s temple and reached him before they defused, which happened within the timeframe of 30 minutes. And they had time to take a nap while Piccolo was searching, so it took him at least 10 minutes.

So, let’s excuse a clear indication of slower than light movement because of plot convenience? Boo tried to reach them as fast as he could and even tried to attack them as soon as he spotted them. He obviously had no interest in slowing down.
Travel and combat speed are not the same thing, and travel speed is mostly irrelevant in a fight.

Your instant transmission argument makes little sense. "they thought Goku was just deceiving them with quick movement.", which implies they thought Goku could move that fast normally, which implies that travel speed normal for them which undermines your argument.

Piccolo only found Gotenks after he woke up from his nap and defused and they left Fat Buu's hideout, which means it was over 30 mins. Piccolo couldn't keep up with Gotenks flying around the Earth multiple times in less than a min (shown in the manga). Actually watch the show bro.

Speed feats aside, the fact that Buuhan didn't just blast Goku & Vegeta as they were arguing about the Potara earrings itself is obviously pure plot convenience, which makes any speed arguments involving that scene worthless.
Of course they aren’t the same thing, and I never said they were. Travel speed is the same that the characters use to zip around one another, dodge attacks, approach their opponent. Combat speed is about their reaction in a stationary position, like blocking, punching and kicking. Think about The Flash and Wonder Woman, who are specialists in each kind, but both use their speed in combat. In Dragon Ball is the same thing.

What you are saying doesn’t make sense, as it would be totally against the point Goku was trying to prove. If he could move so fast, how would he demonstrate he could teleport?

I’m not sure what your point is in Gotenks’ scene. Several laps around the Earth in a minute is still much slower than light (we don’t even know if he did it in a minute as he only had 1 minute to fight Boo and we don’t know what he did in the 19 minutes before his nap, so likely he spent about 15 minutes overlapping Earth). Anyway, I’m actually talking about Piccolo’s attempt to catch Gotenks while he was still Gotenks... The note is from the point Gotenks stopped his movements and started a nap until he woke up and Piccolo found him. It took at least 10 minutes for Piccolo to complete this path.

You didn’t offer any meaningful response to Gohan Boo’s case, just repeating the same excuse. That’s not even the only case of someone using high speed movement to avoid an inconvenient situation. Trunks trying to get the dragon radar while Goku was keeping Boo occupied. Gohan after Kibito brought him to Earth. In Dragon Ball Super there is Moro after getting his magic powers back, and so on.

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Re: Are the Saiyans Massively faster than light by the time of Super?

Post by theherodjl » Wed Jan 12, 2022 4:54 am

They're faster than light going by whatever "light" is in DB's universe. It's a similar principle to the black hole at the ToP despite said-black hole being only superficially similar to how they function in the real world.
Ever wonder how two fighters in DB can physically talk to each other while moving at FTL speeds, although sound waves are thousands of times slower than how fast they're going?
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Re: Are the Saiyans Massively faster than light by the time of Super?

Post by NickLord » Wed Jan 12, 2022 4:58 am

Hugo Boss wrote: Tue Jan 11, 2022 10:12 pm
NickLord wrote: Tue Jan 11, 2022 8:17 pm
Hugo Boss wrote: Mon Jan 10, 2022 1:23 pm
It’s totally irrelevant the difference between combat speed and travel speed, since both are used in battle, and we are not debating who is punching or blocking faster, but rather moving faster.

The scene about the introduction of instantaneous movement is blatantly clear. Goku could only prove he could teleport, because that feat was beyond his capability without the technique. Before they realized where he got the glasses, they thought Goku was just deceiving them with quick movement.

Wrong. Piccolo started searching for Gotenks as soon as he left Kami’s temple and reached him before they defused, which happened within the timeframe of 30 minutes. And they had time to take a nap while Piccolo was searching, so it took him at least 10 minutes.

So, let’s excuse a clear indication of slower than light movement because of plot convenience? Boo tried to reach them as fast as he could and even tried to attack them as soon as he spotted them. He obviously had no interest in slowing down.
Travel and combat speed are not the same thing, and travel speed is mostly irrelevant in a fight.

Your instant transmission argument makes little sense. "they thought Goku was just deceiving them with quick movement.", which implies they thought Goku could move that fast normally, which implies that travel speed normal for them which undermines your argument.

Piccolo only found Gotenks after he woke up from his nap and defused and they left Fat Buu's hideout, which means it was over 30 mins. Piccolo couldn't keep up with Gotenks flying around the Earth multiple times in less than a min (shown in the manga). Actually watch the show bro.

Speed feats aside, the fact that Buuhan didn't just blast Goku & Vegeta as they were arguing about the Potara earrings itself is obviously pure plot convenience, which makes any speed arguments involving that scene worthless.
Of course they aren’t the same thing, and I never said they were. Travel speed is the same that the characters use to zip around one another, dodge attacks, approach their opponent. Combat speed is about their reaction in a stationary position, like blocking, punching and kicking. Think about The Flash and Wonder Woman, who are specialists in each kind, but both use their speed in combat. In Dragon Ball is the same thing.

What you are saying doesn’t make sense, as it would be totally against the point Goku was trying to prove. If he could move so fast, how would he demonstrate he could teleport?

I’m not sure what your point is in Gotenks’ scene. Several laps around the Earth in a minute is still much slower than light (we don’t even know if he did it in a minute as he only had 1 minute to fight Boo and we don’t know what he did in the 19 minutes before his nap, so likely he spent about 15 minutes overlapping Earth). Anyway, I’m actually talking about Piccolo’s attempt to catch Gotenks while he was still Gotenks... The note is from the point Gotenks stopped his movements and started a nap until he woke up and Piccolo found him. It took at least 10 minutes for Piccolo to complete this path.

You didn’t offer any meaningful response to Gohan Boo’s case, just repeating the same excuse. That’s not even the only case of someone using high speed movement to avoid an inconvenient situation. Trunks trying to get the dragon radar while Goku was keeping Boo occupied. Gohan after Kibito brought him to Earth. In Dragon Ball Super there is Moro after getting his magic powers back, and so on.
Its clear you don't understand basic logic and just want to downplay.

You didn't get it, you ignored the basic fact that Goku moving at that speed at wasn't look at as impossible by the rest of the cast, you undermines your entire argument.

Your Gotenks/Piccolo argument makes no sense. We are never given any timeframe for how long it took for Piccolo to find Gotenks after he woke up from rest. A person's travel speed means little when that person don't even know where what they're looking for is.

Pointing out a plot convenience or plot based stupidity isn't an excuse, its pointing out a fact about the story. And none of the characters in your final paragraph were even moving at their top speed in those instances anyway, so that argument fails too.

If a character like King Kai, who can track a spaceship traveling multiple galaxies within days, yet couldn't track the movements of SSJ Goku vs Freeza, what does that logically say about how fast these characters are? If these characters weren't FTL then King Kai would have no problems keeping up with the SSJ Goku vs Freeza fight.

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Re: Are the Saiyans Massively faster than light by the time of Super?

Post by NickLord » Wed Jan 12, 2022 5:05 am

theherodjl wrote: Wed Jan 12, 2022 4:54 am They're faster than light going by whatever "light" is in DB's universe. It's a similar principle to the black hole at the ToP despite said-black hole being only superficially similar to how they function in the real world.
Ever wonder how two fighters in DB can physically talk to each other while moving at FTL speeds, although sound waves are thousands of times slower than how fast they're going?
That same latter argument could be applied to literally any work of fiction that features FTL travel. Either way, there's nothing in the franchise that says light works differently there than in real life.

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Re: Are the Saiyans Massively faster than light by the time of Super?

Post by Hugo Boss » Wed Jan 12, 2022 9:10 am

NickLord wrote: Wed Jan 12, 2022 4:58 am Its clear you don't understand basic logic and just want to downplay.

You didn't get it, you ignored the basic fact that Goku moving at that speed at wasn't look at as impossible by the rest of the cast, you undermines your entire argument.

Your Gotenks/Piccolo argument makes no sense. We are never given any timeframe for how long it took for Piccolo to find Gotenks after he woke up from rest. A person's travel speed means little when that person don't even know where what they're looking for is.

Pointing out a plot convenience or plot based stupidity isn't an excuse, its pointing out a fact about the story. And none of the characters in your final paragraph were even moving at their top speed in those instances anyway, so that argument fails too.

If a character like King Kai, who can track a spaceship traveling multiple galaxies within days, yet couldn't track the movements of SSJ Goku vs Freeza, what does that logically say about how fast these characters are? If these characters weren't FTL then King Kai would have no problems keeping up with the SSJ Goku vs Freeza fight.
My opinion is based on verified information. You didn’t even explain your reasoning, you are just repeating the same ad hominem fallacy.

Assuming the cast believed Goku could move to Muten Roshi’s house and come back that instantly, how that would prove Goku was teleporting? It’s a logic question.

You are right that it wasn’t given a timeframe for how long it took Piccolo to find Gotenks, but it was given a minimum. A nap lasts between 10-15 minutes. This is the time that Gotenks wasn’t moving, so as soon as he stopped, Piccolo could spot him with ki sensing or broad vision and move to his location.

Chapter #473 for Trunks (he thought Goku would be killed so he even used Super Saiyan to boost his speed). #496 for Gohan (he arrived almost as soon as Gotenks defused, so it’s difficult to say if he was far or not, I will give you that). #48 from Dragon Ball Super for Moro (you obviously didn’t verify this, as soon as Moro retrieves his magic powers he goes directly to Cranberry’s position to stop him from using the third wish, his movement was so intense it knocked down Goku and Vegeta in his path).

Easy one. King Kai should have no problem following the linear path of Goku’s spaceship, as he knows where is his destination. Following a fight is a different matter though, as the fighters are moving back and forth chaotically. And actually I went to check this scene in the manga and didn’t find it. Is this a filler from the anime? In this search, I found that SS Goku didn’t have time to reach his spaceship and went instead to Freeza’s spaceship. Just more food for thought.

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Re: Are the Saiyans Massively faster than light by the time of Super?

Post by NickLord » Wed Jan 12, 2022 3:19 pm

Hugo Boss wrote: Wed Jan 12, 2022 9:10 am
NickLord wrote: Wed Jan 12, 2022 4:58 am Its clear you don't understand basic logic and just want to downplay.

You didn't get it, you ignored the basic fact that Goku moving at that speed at wasn't look at as impossible by the rest of the cast, you undermines your entire argument.

Your Gotenks/Piccolo argument makes no sense. We are never given any timeframe for how long it took for Piccolo to find Gotenks after he woke up from rest. A person's travel speed means little when that person don't even know where what they're looking for is.

Pointing out a plot convenience or plot based stupidity isn't an excuse, its pointing out a fact about the story. And none of the characters in your final paragraph were even moving at their top speed in those instances anyway, so that argument fails too.

If a character like King Kai, who can track a spaceship traveling multiple galaxies within days, yet couldn't track the movements of SSJ Goku vs Freeza, what does that logically say about how fast these characters are? If these characters weren't FTL then King Kai would have no problems keeping up with the SSJ Goku vs Freeza fight.
My opinion is based on verified information. You didn’t even explain your reasoning, you are just repeating the same ad hominem fallacy.

Assuming the cast believed Goku could move to Muten Roshi’s house and come back that instantly, how that would prove Goku was teleporting? It’s a logic question.

You are right that it wasn’t given a timeframe for how long it took Piccolo to find Gotenks, but it was given a minimum. A nap lasts between 10-15 minutes. This is the time that Gotenks wasn’t moving, so as soon as he stopped, Piccolo could spot him with ki sensing or broad vision and move to his location.

Chapter #473 for Trunks (he thought Goku would be killed so he even used Super Saiyan to boost his speed). #496 for Gohan (he arrived almost as soon as Gotenks defused, so it’s difficult to say if he was far or not, I will give you that). #48 from Dragon Ball Super for Moro (you obviously didn’t verify this, as soon as Moro retrieves his magic powers he goes directly to Cranberry’s position to stop him from using the third wish, his movement was so intense it knocked down Goku and Vegeta in his path).

Easy one. King Kai should have no problem following the linear path of Goku’s spaceship, as he knows where is his destination. Following a fight is a different matter though, as the fighters are moving back and forth chaotically. And actually I went to check this scene in the manga and didn’t find it. Is this a filler from the anime? In this search, I found that SS Goku didn’t have time to reach his spaceship and went instead to Freeza’s spaceship. Just more food for thought.
They would have never doubted it being teleportation if such speed wasn't normally possible for them. Logic bro

"A nap last 10-15 mins", that's not a universal thing, that's just another baseless assumption you made. And you can't sense a sleeping person who's ki isn't active.

If Trunks moved at top speed then he would have been fatigued by the time he returned to Kami's Lookout. And no timeframe is even given for Moro's feat.

The direction of an object's movement doesn't matter, only its travel speed does. If King Kai could see a ship travel across galaxies with no problems yet couldn't see Goku vs Freeza well, then logically Goku & Freeza must be faster than that ship. And Goku's spaceship was gone/destroyed by the time the fight with Freeza ended. In the OG manga Goku didn't even try to fly back to his own ship, he merely flew into the nearest ship he could see. So that downplay fails too.

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Re: Are the Saiyans Massively faster than light by the time of Super?

Post by fleahop » Wed Jan 12, 2022 11:30 pm

Oh look a dumpster fire

*starts to shovel coal into it*

Functionally? No.

The laws of DB's universe clearly are so vastly different to our own, that even if they were moving at FTL speeds it wouldn't matter.

I mean we could say "yes they move FTL" but that only means FTL in the Dragon World, which doesn't have our rules of physics at all (thankfully).

Something tells me light doesn't even have a set speed in the Dragon World. This is an in-universe discussion with all that entails; however, the question ends up being nebulous as the rules aren't set, so we can't give an accurate answer besides a shrug.

That's my two cents anyway.
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Re: Are the Saiyans Massively faster than light by the time of Super?

Post by miguelnuva1 » Thu Jan 13, 2022 1:53 am

NickLord wrote: Tue Jan 11, 2022 8:24 pm
miguelnuva1 wrote: Sun Jan 09, 2022 5:15 pm
NickLord wrote: Sun Jan 09, 2022 3:27 pm

"Faster than the human eye" means anything faster than humans can see. If the cameras could keep up with them they would be able see them fight, which they couldn't do at all. You're argument completely fails.
You can reach to something that is too fast to see if you can hear it for example. Their are many levels of too fast to see before you get to lightspeed. If someone was moving at lightspeed around you, you would have no idea where they are.

The camera has a vague idea where Goku and Cell are.
This is a self-defeating argument because even regular people can track the direction of where light is moving with their eyes, so that doesn't work.

Also, the camera clearly couldn't tell where Goku & Cell actually were as they fight, as the camera would move in one direction while Goku & Cell (shown through speed lines) would move in another.
Light moves fast than the nerves send signals in your body to reach your brain. If an object was moving around you at light speed you wouldn't know it.

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Re: Are the Saiyans Massively faster than light by the time of Super?

Post by theherodjl » Thu Jan 13, 2022 10:27 am

NickLord wrote: Wed Jan 12, 2022 5:05 am
theherodjl wrote: Wed Jan 12, 2022 4:54 am They're faster than light going by whatever "light" is in DB's universe. It's a similar principle to the black hole at the ToP despite said-black hole being only superficially similar to how they function in the real world.
Ever wonder how two fighters in DB can physically talk to each other while moving at FTL speeds, although sound waves are thousands of times slower than how fast they're going?
That same latter argument could be applied to literally any work of fiction that features FTL travel. Either way, there's nothing in the franchise that says light works differently there than in real life.
The fact of the matter is that there is at least something like sound evidently working different in DB's universe to be able to keep up with massively hypersonic/FTL beings as opposed to the real world, whatever that happens to imply. Additional, the inconsistency of superluminal fight speed & energy attacks ranging from covering astronomical units in mere seconds to being perceptible, even just a little bit, to ordinary humans puts the answer within a shade of gray rather than black & white.

This debate about "manga panels, downplaying and logical fallacies" is just more of the same ol' "my headcanon is better/smarter than your headcanon" mentality. Who even cares about winning if you just repeat yourself in as many ways as another response allows?
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Re: Are the Saiyans Massively faster than light by the time of Super?

Post by Koitsukai » Thu Jan 13, 2022 11:56 am

Truth of the matter is the author never gave a second thought about it. The original material contradicts itself several times. The moon is destroyed immediately and ki blasts seem to be quite fast and getting faster as the show advances, but nobody believes Goku can travel 10,000 km so fast, Trunks goes SS to retrieve the Dragon radar but it takes him a lot to arrive, and also a lot to get back, and Trunks was told to hurry the fuck up to save his own family. And IIRC, the first time FTL speed was addressed was with Dyspo, and only in the anime I think.

Besides, DB doesn't work with real life physics, Earth suffered nothing at all after losing the moon, twice!! The problem is the fandom trying to apply real mathematical equations to a gag manga that evolved into a beam shooting manga.

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Re: Are the Saiyans Massively faster than light by the time of Super?

Post by Hugo Boss » Thu Jan 13, 2022 2:34 pm

NickLord wrote: Wed Jan 12, 2022 3:19 pm They would have never doubted it being teleportation if such speed wasn't normally possible for them. Logic bro
They are used to see Goku move at super speed, but you missed the point here. How someone so fast can prove that he can teleport? That's the question you should make to understand the scene. Check Yamcha and Vegeta's reactions. Muten Roshi's house was at least 10.000 km far from their position. Light travels at 299.792,5 km per second. To travel around 20.000 km, light would only need 0,067 sec. Yet, when Goku covers that distance, everyone, including Vegeta, agrees that it would be impossible without teleportation.
"A nap last 10-15 mins", that's not a universal thing, that's just another baseless assumption you made. And you can't sense a sleeping person who's ki isn't active.
It takes just a quick research, 10 min at minimum, 15 min at average and 20 min at max. Unless Gotenks needs much less time than a normal person.. but I doubt the scene is trying to establish that. And we have no reason to assume that Piccolo is only able to feel Gotenks' ki if he is awake.
If Trunks moved at top speed then he would have been fatigued by the time he returned to Kami's Lookout. And no timeframe is even given for Moro's feat.
If Trunks was as fast as light as a Super Saiyan, he would reach Capsule Corp in less than a second, even before Goku showed his transformations to Boo. We see that he stopped midway when he senses SS2. When Trunks moves back again, he doesn't return until Goku finishes his chat with Boo and Piccolo. And more importantly, if he didn't want to travel at top speed, he wouldn't use Super Saiyan at all.

Moro's movement occurs just before Porunga announces there is a third wish. Actually, this is a good showing of speed, because when Cranberry was asking the third wish, Moro had already pierced his back. Another good showing is when Moro and Goku are travelling around the Earth using ultra instinct and Moro manages to get Goku by surprise just by changing his direction. You get the sense that Earth is too small for that race. This is how I'd imagine characters as fast as light would move in a manga without looking too goofy.
The direction of an object's movement doesn't matter, only its travel speed does. If King Kai could see a ship travel across galaxies with no problems yet couldn't see Goku vs Freeza well, then logically Goku & Freeza must be faster than that ship. And Goku's spaceship was gone/destroyed by the time the fight with Freeza ended. In the OG manga Goku didn't even try to fly back to his own ship, he merely flew into the nearest ship he could see. So that downplay fails too.
Just finished my search. This scene is filler, so it doesn't matter. Though my point still stands, you can have a much easier time following an airplane in the sky than following two flies right above your head. It doesn't mean a fly is faster than an airplane.

The spaceship Goku used to go to Namek wasn't destroyed. Chapter #327. Goku told Freeza he didn't have time to get to his spaceship, so he would try to use Freeza's instead. He knew it had too much damage (even inflicted by himself). Before making further responses or accusing someone of "downplay" or "baseless assumptions", try to make at least some research.

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Re: Are the Saiyans Massively faster than light by the time of Super?

Post by miguelnuva1 » Thu Jan 13, 2022 7:51 pm

FYI a nap can be asong as an hour. 20 mins is a quick nap.

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Re: Are the Saiyans Massively faster than light by the time of Super?

Post by VegettoEX » Thu Jan 13, 2022 10:06 pm

Hooooooly cheese balls drop the extreme condescension you guys. It’s absurd and embarrassing.

That’s a free formal warning.
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Re: Are the Saiyans Massively faster than light by the time of Super?

Post by Hugo Boss » Fri Jan 14, 2022 7:39 am

miguelnuva1 wrote: Thu Jan 13, 2022 7:51 pm FYI a nap can be asong as an hour. 20 mins is a quick nap.
Of course, but anything more than 29 minutes would be impossible for Gotenks, as he can only exist for 30 minutes and he had 1 minute left to fight Boo. Besides, you don’t enter the first stages of a sleep cycle and feel a little refreshed with less than 10 minutes or more than 20 minutes. A nap longer than 20 minutes doesn’t give you benefit, unless you complete the sleep cycle of 90-110 minutes.

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Re: Are the Saiyans Massively faster than light by the time of Super?

Post by NickLord » Sat Jan 15, 2022 2:36 pm

miguelnuva1 wrote: Thu Jan 13, 2022 1:53 am
NickLord wrote: Tue Jan 11, 2022 8:24 pm
miguelnuva1 wrote: Sun Jan 09, 2022 5:15 pm

You can reach to something that is too fast to see if you can hear it for example. Their are many levels of too fast to see before you get to lightspeed. If someone was moving at lightspeed around you, you would have no idea where they are.

The camera has a vague idea where Goku and Cell are.
This is a self-defeating argument because even regular people can track the direction of where light is moving with their eyes, so that doesn't work.

Also, the camera clearly couldn't tell where Goku & Cell actually were as they fight, as the camera would move in one direction while Goku & Cell (shown through speed lines) would move in another.
Light moves fast than the nerves send signals in your body to reach your brain. If an object was moving around you at light speed you wouldn't know it.
Yes you would, we do this with actual light all of the time. And you didn't address my main point, that the cameras couldn't tell where they were going.

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Re: Are the Saiyans Massively faster than light by the time of Super?

Post by NickLord » Sat Jan 15, 2022 2:39 pm

Hugo Boss wrote: Thu Jan 13, 2022 2:34 pm
NickLord wrote: Wed Jan 12, 2022 3:19 pm They would have never doubted it being teleportation if such speed wasn't normally possible for them. Logic bro
They are used to see Goku move at super speed, but you missed the point here. How someone so fast can prove that he can teleport? That's the question you should make to understand the scene. Check Yamcha and Vegeta's reactions. Muten Roshi's house was at least 10.000 km far from their position. Light travels at 299.792,5 km per second. To travel around 20.000 km, light would only need 0,067 sec. Yet, when Goku covers that distance, everyone, including Vegeta, agrees that it would be impossible without teleportation.
"A nap last 10-15 mins", that's not a universal thing, that's just another baseless assumption you made. And you can't sense a sleeping person who's ki isn't active.
It takes just a quick research, 10 min at minimum, 15 min at average and 20 min at max. Unless Gotenks needs much less time than a normal person.. but I doubt the scene is trying to establish that. And we have no reason to assume that Piccolo is only able to feel Gotenks' ki if he is awake.
If Trunks moved at top speed then he would have been fatigued by the time he returned to Kami's Lookout. And no timeframe is even given for Moro's feat.
If Trunks was as fast as light as a Super Saiyan, he would reach Capsule Corp in less than a second, even before Goku showed his transformations to Boo. We see that he stopped midway when he senses SS2. When Trunks moves back again, he doesn't return until Goku finishes his chat with Boo and Piccolo. And more importantly, if he didn't want to travel at top speed, he wouldn't use Super Saiyan at all.

Moro's movement occurs just before Porunga announces there is a third wish. Actually, this is a good showing of speed, because when Cranberry was asking the third wish, Moro had already pierced his back. Another good showing is when Moro and Goku are travelling around the Earth using ultra instinct and Moro manages to get Goku by surprise just by changing his direction. You get the sense that Earth is too small for that race. This is how I'd imagine characters as fast as light would move in a manga without looking too goofy.
The direction of an object's movement doesn't matter, only its travel speed does. If King Kai could see a ship travel across galaxies with no problems yet couldn't see Goku vs Freeza well, then logically Goku & Freeza must be faster than that ship. And Goku's spaceship was gone/destroyed by the time the fight with Freeza ended. In the OG manga Goku didn't even try to fly back to his own ship, he merely flew into the nearest ship he could see. So that downplay fails too.
Just finished my search. This scene is filler, so it doesn't matter. Though my point still stands, you can have a much easier time following an airplane in the sky than following two flies right above your head. It doesn't mean a fly is faster than an airplane.

The spaceship Goku used to go to Namek wasn't destroyed. Chapter #327. Goku told Freeza he didn't have time to get to his spaceship, so he would try to use Freeza's instead. He knew it had too much damage (even inflicted by himself). Before making further responses or accusing someone of "downplay" or "baseless assumptions", try to make at least some research.
Do you even have a source for any of these claims bro? Because all of this comes across as baseless headcanon to me.

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Re: Are the Saiyans Massively faster than light by the time of Super?

Post by Hugo Boss » Sat Jan 15, 2022 3:13 pm

NickLord wrote: Sat Jan 15, 2022 2:39 pm Do you even have a source for any of these claims bro? Because all of this comes across as baseless headcanon to me.
The source is the manga. I even indicated which chapters you should read.

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