Are the Saiyans Massively faster than light by the time of Super?

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Re: Are the Saiyans Massively faster than light by the time of Super?

Post by miguelnuva1 » Sat Jan 15, 2022 4:53 pm

NickLord wrote: Sat Jan 15, 2022 2:36 pm
miguelnuva1 wrote: Thu Jan 13, 2022 1:53 am
NickLord wrote: Tue Jan 11, 2022 8:24 pm

This is a self-defeating argument because even regular people can track the direction of where light is moving with their eyes, so that doesn't work.

Also, the camera clearly couldn't tell where Goku & Cell actually were as they fight, as the camera would move in one direction while Goku & Cell (shown through speed lines) would move in another.
Light moves fast than the nerves send signals in your body to reach your brain. If an object was moving around you at light speed you wouldn't know it.
Yes you would, we do this with actual light all of the time. And you didn't address my main point, that the cameras couldn't tell where they were going.
Humans can't see an object moving at light speed with the naked eye. It moves faster than our brain can get singles and at beat we would see radiation left behind from the object.

If you can see an object at lightspeed with your naked eye you are a superior human who should use your gift for good.

With the cameras in the anime it is shown Goku and Cell pop up at point A. The camera turns yo point A but they are already at point B. The camera tries to move from A to B but they are then at point C.

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Re: Are the Saiyans Massively faster than light by the time of Super?

Post by Hugo Boss » Sat Jan 15, 2022 7:36 pm

By the way, on the subject, One Punch Man’s chapter #156 has a good example of how a fight at the speed of light should look like. In 13 microseconds, light would travel around 3,9km, the light structure they created in that timeframe looks like to have dozens of kilometers no less. It’s just a demonstration that if the author wants to convey that kind of speed, she/he can do it.

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Re: Are the Saiyans Massively faster than light by the time of Super?

Post by pepd » Sat Jan 15, 2022 8:00 pm

Indeed, if there was any intention for them to be light speed or anything close to it, there would have been some direct indication or effort put in depicting it. Their speed is simply A-LOT m/s.

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Re: Are the Saiyans Massively faster than light by the time of Super?

Post by NickLord » Mon Jan 17, 2022 4:19 am

Hugo Boss wrote: Sat Jan 15, 2022 7:36 pm By the way, on the subject, One Punch Man’s chapter #156 has a good example of how a fight at the speed of light should look like. In 13 microseconds, light would travel around 3,9km, the light structure they created in that timeframe looks like to have dozens of kilometers no less. It’s just a demonstration that if the author wants to convey that kind of speed, she/he can do it.
pepd wrote: Sat Jan 15, 2022 8:00 pm Indeed, if there was any intention for them to be light speed or anything close to it, there would have been some direct indication or effort put in depicting it. Their speed is simply A-LOT m/s.
This assumes that all authors know how light travels irl, which isn't the case. Dragonball is filled with things and feats that don't work how they do it real life, same with most other Shonen and most Superhero comics.

We know from direct feats and statements (like Piccolo blowing up the moon in 2-3 seconds as early as the Raditz arc) that the DB cast had already reach FTL speeds early on, trying to deny this is like trying yo deny that DB characters can blow up planets at all.

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Re: Are the Saiyans Massively faster than light by the time of Super?

Post by NickLord » Mon Jan 17, 2022 4:24 am

miguelnuva1 wrote: Sat Jan 15, 2022 4:53 pm
NickLord wrote: Sat Jan 15, 2022 2:36 pm
miguelnuva1 wrote: Thu Jan 13, 2022 1:53 am

Light moves fast than the nerves send signals in your body to reach your brain. If an object was moving around you at light speed you wouldn't know it.
Yes you would, we do this with actual light all of the time. And you didn't address my main point, that the cameras couldn't tell where they were going.
Humans can't see an object moving at light speed with the naked eye. It moves faster than our brain can get singles and at beat we would see radiation left behind from the object.

If you can see an object at lightspeed with your naked eye you are a superior human who should use your gift for good.

With the cameras in the anime it is shown Goku and Cell pop up at point A. The camera turns yo point A but they are already at point B. The camera tries to move from A to B but they are then at point C.
You realize that this actually debunks your own argument right lol? Seriously, to deny Z characters are FTL is like denying that they could blow up planets (despite seeing them do it). Also, trying to downplay using real life scientific limitations on a work of fiction that doesn't use real life science limits is ridiculous.

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Re: Are the Saiyans Massively faster than light by the time of Super?

Post by Hugo Boss » Mon Jan 17, 2022 5:45 am

NickLord wrote: Mon Jan 17, 2022 4:19 am We know from direct feats and statements (like Piccolo blowing up the moon in 2-3 seconds as early as the Raditz arc) that the DB cast had already reach FTL speeds early on, trying to deny this is like trying yo deny that DB characters can blow up planets at all.
No, it’s not the same thing. Unfortunately, there are no such statements and feats, much to the contrary. It would require some level of stupidity for the characters to not move at such speed at moments they had to be as fast as possible. Multiple references from the manga were given to you, from points of the story much further than when the moon was destroyed. Super Saiyan level characters and such. And there is no logical response other than just admitting they just can’t move like that, yet, despite your efforts of not seeing it.

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Re: Are the Saiyans Massively faster than light by the time of Super?

Post by NickLord » Mon Jan 17, 2022 2:23 pm

Hugo Boss wrote: Mon Jan 17, 2022 5:45 am
NickLord wrote: Mon Jan 17, 2022 4:19 am We know from direct feats and statements (like Piccolo blowing up the moon in 2-3 seconds as early as the Raditz arc) that the DB cast had already reach FTL speeds early on, trying to deny this is like trying yo deny that DB characters can blow up planets at all.
No, it’s not the same thing. Unfortunately, there are no such statements and feats, much to the contrary. It would require some level of stupidity for the characters to not move at such speed at moments they had to be as fast as possible. Multiple references from the manga were given to you, from points of the story much further than when the moon was destroyed. Super Saiyan level characters and such. And there is no logical response other than just admitting they just can’t move like that, yet, despite your efforts of not seeing it.
What references? You haven't posted any sources from the manga nor the anime itself, and you still haven't debunked my point about Piccolo and Roshi.

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Re: Are the Saiyans Massively faster than light by the time of Super?

Post by miguelnuva1 » Tue Jan 18, 2022 4:41 pm

NickLord wrote: Mon Jan 17, 2022 4:24 am
miguelnuva1 wrote: Sat Jan 15, 2022 4:53 pm
NickLord wrote: Sat Jan 15, 2022 2:36 pm

Yes you would, we do this with actual light all of the time. And you didn't address my main point, that the cameras couldn't tell where they were going.
Humans can't see an object moving at light speed with the naked eye. It moves faster than our brain can get singles and at beat we would see radiation left behind from the object.

If you can see an object at lightspeed with your naked eye you are a superior human who should use your gift for good.

With the cameras in the anime it is shown Goku and Cell pop up at point A. The camera turns yo point A but they are already at point B. The camera tries to move from A to B but they are then at point C.
You realize that this actually debunks your own argument right lol? Seriously, to deny Z characters are FTL is like denying that they could blow up planets (despite seeing them do it). Also, trying to downplay using real life scientific limitations on a work of fiction that doesn't use real life science limits is ridiculous.
So they're faster than light but no one wants to zip Goku home to get his medicine and come right back?

And no it doesn't debunk anything. The camera wouldn't move because it wouldn't be able to track light speed let alone FTL.

Sonic the Hedgehog is not watching these fights.

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Re: Are the Saiyans Massively faster than light by the time of Super?

Post by Polyphase Avatron » Tue Jan 18, 2022 7:24 pm

Silly argument as you're never going to prove things precisely without explicit in-universe info.

But considering that Dyspo was stated to be faster than light (and sound, though that's pretty redundant), and his 'light bullet' technique was said to amplify his speed thousands of times, and his ultimate mode is even faster, and how in the manga Jiren was able to fly interstellar distances on his own in a time comparable to a spaceship, I'd say that characters on that level are at a minimum many thousands of times faster than light. But I obviously can't prove this. And of course there will be inconsistencies/plot hole moments where they seem much slower (like Anilaza using sound to track and anticipate all of the Universe 7 team's attacks).
Cool stuff that I upload here because Youtube will copyright claim it: https://vimeo.com/user60967147

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Re: Are the Saiyans Massively faster than light by the time of Super?

Post by Hugo Boss » Tue Jan 18, 2022 7:47 pm

Some examples extracted from the manga showing that Super Saiyan level characters are unable to move at light speed:
  • Chapter #327 - Goku is unable to travel to the spaceship he came to Namek in time. Instead he goes to Freeza's damaged spaceship.
  • Chapter #336 - Goku is unable to travel dozens of thousands of kilometers in a instant without teleportation.
  • Chapter #473 - Trunks is unable to arrive at Capsule Corp and come back from it in less than a second. That results on Goku needing to buy time and to use SS3, despite knowing it will shorten the time he has to teach Fusion to Goten and Trunks.
  • Chapter #482 - Piccolo is unable to reach Gotenks before he takes a nap. Piccolo not only can search his ki, but can use his broad vision to find him. He is tired after trying it.
For some reason the moon-destroying beams are always brought up in threads like this, but subtext in powerscalling should clear up any confusion. Characters much stronger and faster than Piccolo and Roshi when they blew up the moon, as referenced above, aren't able to move faster than light or even close to it. Key factor here is subtext.

To not depend on subtext, a simple remark like "Goku has become so fast that he surpassed the speed of light" suffices, but unfortunately we don't have that until Dyspo in the anime. In another hand, subtext suggests that objects known to travel faster than light, like spaceships, are slower than Jiren in the manga, so anyone that can be compared with him is probably faster than light as well.

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Re: Are the Saiyans Massively faster than light by the time of Super?

Post by miguelnuva1 » Wed Jan 19, 2022 12:01 am

The moon being blown up that quickly is sped up because no one wants to read or watch the actual time it would take a ki blast to destroy said moon.

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Re: Are the Saiyans Massively faster than light by the time of Super?

Post by NickLord » Wed Jan 19, 2022 12:49 am

miguelnuva1 wrote: Wed Jan 19, 2022 12:01 am The moon being blown up that quickly is sped up because no one wants to read or watch the actual time it would take a ki blast to destroy said moon.
That's pure headcanon lol. The actual manga and anime scene literally shows that it all happened in 2-4 seconds of real time while Great Ape Gohan was right next to him. Its like you're desperate to downplay, nothing was sped up.
Last edited by NickLord on Wed Jan 19, 2022 1:05 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Are the Saiyans Massively faster than light by the time of Super?

Post by NickLord » Wed Jan 19, 2022 1:03 am

Hugo Boss wrote: Tue Jan 18, 2022 7:47 pm Some examples extracted from the manga showing that Super Saiyan level characters are unable to move at light speed:
  • Chapter #327 - Goku is unable to travel to the spaceship he came to Namek in time. Instead he goes to Freeza's damaged spaceship.
  • Chapter #336 - Goku is unable to travel dozens of thousands of kilometers in a instant without teleportation.
  • Chapter #473 - Trunks is unable to arrive at Capsule Corp and come back from it in less than a second. That results on Goku needing to buy time and to use SS3, despite knowing it will shorten the time he has to teach Fusion to Goten and Trunks.
  • Chapter #482 - Piccolo is unable to reach Gotenks before he takes a nap. Piccolo not only can search his ki, but can use his broad vision to find him. He is tired after trying it.
For some reason the moon-destroying beams are always brought up in threads like this, but subtext in powerscalling should clear up any confusion. Characters much stronger and faster than Piccolo and Roshi when they blew up the moon, as referenced above, aren't able to move faster than light or even close to it. Key factor here is subtext.

To not depend on subtext, a simple remark like "Goku has become so fast that he surpassed the speed of light" suffices, but unfortunately we don't have that until Dyspo in the anime. In another hand, subtext suggests that objects known to travel faster than light, like spaceships, are slower than Jiren in the manga, so anyone that can be compared with him is probably faster than light as well.
Literally every argument here is something you already said and they all already got debunked.

- Goku didnt' even try to reach his spaceship, he merely went to Freeza's because it was right in front of him. And you still haven't posted any scans from the manga to prove your failed point.

- No one ever said nor implied that Goku couldn't reach that point with teleportation. That's just your headcanon.

- Trunks wasn't moving at top speed, this was pointed out in the show itself, a fact you keep ignoring.

- This is pure false lol, because 1 Piccolo was flying after him at top speed (didn't even take off his armor), 2 Piccolo wasn't actually fatigued afterwards, you just made that up, 3 we're never given a timeframe for how long it took for Piccolo to find Gotenks, a fact you keep ignoring.

- "In another hand, subtext suggests that objects known to travel faster than light, like spaceships, are slower than Jiren in the manga, so anyone that can be compared with him is probably faster than light as well."

And according to the Z anime and Daizenshuu, the spaceship used to reach Namek is slower than SSJ Goku and Final Form Freeza, make of that what you will.

Also, Piccolo & Roshi blowing up the moon in a few seconds is officially acknowledged in the Daizenshuu, interviews with Toriyama and a bunch of other official sources so they can't be dismissed as an outliers regardless of inconsistency.
miguelnuva1 wrote: Tue Jan 18, 2022 4:41 pm
NickLord wrote: Mon Jan 17, 2022 4:24 am
miguelnuva1 wrote: Sat Jan 15, 2022 4:53 pm

Humans can't see an object moving at light speed with the naked eye. It moves faster than our brain can get singles and at beat we would see radiation left behind from the object.

If you can see an object at lightspeed with your naked eye you are a superior human who should use your gift for good.

With the cameras in the anime it is shown Goku and Cell pop up at point A. The camera turns yo point A but they are already at point B. The camera tries to move from A to B but they are then at point C.
You realize that this actually debunks your own argument right lol? Seriously, to deny Z characters are FTL is like denying that they could blow up planets (despite seeing them do it). Also, trying to downplay using real life scientific limitations on a work of fiction that doesn't use real life science limits is ridiculous.
So they're faster than light but no one wants to zip Goku home to get his medicine and come right back?

And no it doesn't debunk anything. The camera wouldn't move because it wouldn't be able to track light speed let alone FTL.

Sonic the Hedgehog is not watching these fights.
The Camera couldn't track Goku & Cell at all, your point?

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Re: Are the Saiyans Massively faster than light by the time of Super?

Post by miguelnuva1 » Wed Jan 19, 2022 5:56 am

NickLord wrote: Wed Jan 19, 2022 1:03 am
Hugo Boss wrote: Tue Jan 18, 2022 7:47 pm Some examples extracted from the manga showing that Super Saiyan level characters are unable to move at light speed:
  • Chapter #327 - Goku is unable to travel to the spaceship he came to Namek in time. Instead he goes to Freeza's damaged spaceship.
  • Chapter #336 - Goku is unable to travel dozens of thousands of kilometers in a instant without teleportation.
  • Chapter #473 - Trunks is unable to arrive at Capsule Corp and come back from it in less than a second. That results on Goku needing to buy time and to use SS3, despite knowing it will shorten the time he has to teach Fusion to Goten and Trunks.
  • Chapter #482 - Piccolo is unable to reach Gotenks before he takes a nap. Piccolo not only can search his ki, but can use his broad vision to find him. He is tired after trying it.
For some reason the moon-destroying beams are always brought up in threads like this, but subtext in powerscalling should clear up any confusion. Characters much stronger and faster than Piccolo and Roshi when they blew up the moon, as referenced above, aren't able to move faster than light or even close to it. Key factor here is subtext.

To not depend on subtext, a simple remark like "Goku has become so fast that he surpassed the speed of light" suffices, but unfortunately we don't have that until Dyspo in the anime. In another hand, subtext suggests that objects known to travel faster than light, like spaceships, are slower than Jiren in the manga, so anyone that can be compared with him is probably faster than light as well.
Literally every argument here is something you already said and they all already got debunked.

- Goku didnt' even try to reach his spaceship, he merely went to Freeza's because it was right in front of him. And you still haven't posted any scans from the manga to prove your failed point.

- No one ever said nor implied that Goku couldn't reach that point with teleportation. That's just your headcanon.

- Trunks wasn't moving at top speed, this was pointed out in the show itself, a fact you keep ignoring.

- This is pure false lol, because 1 Piccolo was flying after him at top speed (didn't even take off his armor), 2 Piccolo wasn't actually fatigued afterwards, you just made that up, 3 we're never given a timeframe for how long it took for Piccolo to find Gotenks, a fact you keep ignoring.

- "In another hand, subtext suggests that objects known to travel faster than light, like spaceships, are slower than Jiren in the manga, so anyone that can be compared with him is probably faster than light as well."

And according to the Z anime and Daizenshuu, the spaceship used to reach Namek is slower than SSJ Goku and Final Form Freeza, make of that what you will.

Also, Piccolo & Roshi blowing up the moon in a few seconds is officially acknowledged in the Daizenshuu, interviews with Toriyama and a bunch of other official sources so they can't be dismissed as an outliers regardless of inconsistency.
miguelnuva1 wrote: Tue Jan 18, 2022 4:41 pm
NickLord wrote: Mon Jan 17, 2022 4:24 am

You realize that this actually debunks your own argument right lol? Seriously, to deny Z characters are FTL is like denying that they could blow up planets (despite seeing them do it). Also, trying to downplay using real life scientific limitations on a work of fiction that doesn't use real life science limits is ridiculous.
So they're faster than light but no one wants to zip Goku home to get his medicine and come right back?

And no it doesn't debunk anything. The camera wouldn't move because it wouldn't be able to track light speed let alone FTL.

Sonic the Hedgehog is not watching these fights.
The Camera couldn't track Goku & Cell at all, your point?
Not keeping up doesn't mean I can't track you. I can track you for 50 years and never find you.

Lightspeed I would have no idea you were even around.
NickLord wrote: Wed Jan 19, 2022 12:49 am
miguelnuva1 wrote: Wed Jan 19, 2022 12:01 am The moon being blown up that quickly is sped up because no one wants to read or watch the actual time it would take a ki blast to destroy said moon.
That's pure headcanon lol. The actual manga and anime scene literally shows that it all happened in 2-4 seconds of real time while Great Ape Gohan was right next to him. Its like you're desperate to downplay, nothing was sped up.
So Piccolo's ki blast and Roshi's Kamehameha are both faster than energy attacks used later in the series?

Normal people noticed the energy attacks Goten and Trunks were using at the tournament.

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Re: Are the Saiyans Massively faster than light by the time of Super?

Post by Koitsukai » Wed Jan 19, 2022 10:13 am

NickLord wrote: Wed Jan 19, 2022 1:03 am
- No one ever said nor implied that Goku couldn't reach that point with teleportation. That's just your headcanon.

- Trunks wasn't moving at top speed, this was pointed out in the show itself, a fact you keep ignoring.
Sorry, could you provide proof for the second one? because literally both Goku and Trunks have an urgency, the kid even goes SS and doesn't even trust Goku to hold off Buu... Goku even tells him to hurry up when Trunks felt SS3's ki, so how come after that, before the fight, Trunks still took so long and arrived much later than Goku?

The first one doesn't make sense, sorry, that is literally what it was implied.

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Re: Are the Saiyans Massively faster than light by the time of Super?

Post by Hugo Boss » Wed Jan 19, 2022 4:30 pm

NickLord wrote: Wed Jan 19, 2022 1:03 am Literally every argument here is something you already said and they all already got debunked.
[...]
And you still haven't posted any scans from the manga to prove your failed point.
I've said it before, but your arguments against the points I listed suggest you don't actually check the information beforehand. And the way you conduct yourself here is very disrespectful. The chapters were mentioned above, you should be able to find them easily. I won't post links or scans, because it's against the forum rules (not to mention it's discourages acquiring the product by legal means).
And according to the Z anime and Daizenshuu, the spaceship used to reach Namek is slower than SSJ Goku and Final Form Freeza, make of that what you will.
This scene is not present in the manga and Daizenshuu has no word about it. And even if it was meant to suggest they are faster than the spaceship, it's in conflict with the other situations referenced above.
Also, Piccolo & Roshi blowing up the moon in a few seconds is officially acknowledged in the Daizenshuu, interviews with Toriyama and a bunch of other official sources so they can't be dismissed as an outliers regardless of inconsistency.
I don't think those ki blasts are reaching the moon after a minute, it's probably a matter of seconds really. But the characters moving around themselves is treated as a different matter. The scope is not the same.
The Camera couldn't track Goku & Cell at all, your point?
What he is trying to say is that if Goku and Cell were moving at lightspeed, the cameraman wouldn't try to track them as he wouldn't realize if they are moving or not. If the regular humans can say they are fast, it's because they can still process what's going on, be it with sound or air current. With lightspeed they wouldn't be able to tell if they are moving or not.

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Re: Are the Saiyans Massively faster than light by the time of Super?

Post by Koitsukai » Wed Jan 19, 2022 4:45 pm

Also, what can we say about Goku taking at least 3 hours to travel the 1,000,000 km long Snake Way on his way back? 4 seconds should've been enough considering his friends were being slaughtered, if he had already acquired light speed.

The only time LS was brought up in the franchise was with Dyspo, clearing up all inconsistencies and concerns.

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Re: Are the Saiyans Massively faster than light by the time of Super?

Post by mmg86 » Wed Jan 19, 2022 5:14 pm

Polyphase Avatron wrote: Tue Jan 18, 2022 7:24 pm considering that Dyspo was stated to be faster than light (and sound, though that's pretty redundant), and his 'light bullet' technique was said to amplify his speed thousands of times
Polyphase Avatron wrote: Tue Jan 18, 2022 7:24 pm I'd say that characters on that level are at a minimum many thousands of times faster than light
I haven't watched that entire episode, merely clips, and i don't know if the way those statements are phrased (in Japanese) lends itself to it, but... isn't it possible that when Toppo mentions Dyspo has "surpassed the speed of sound and light", he means he's faster than sound at all times, and with a boost of x thousands he surpasses light?

That would be much more coherent than a line implying that sound and light are even remotely comparable. Let's say for the sake of example that Dyspo is something like Mach 500. Sure, it's weird at that point to say that he's "faster than sound", but if one had to round his speed up or down, it's not THAT nonsensical to round it down to just "faster than sound", and a x2000 boost from his technique would indeed push him beyond lightspeed.

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Re: Are the Saiyans Massively faster than light by the time of Super?

Post by Hugo Boss » Wed Jan 19, 2022 6:27 pm

I understood that under certain circumstances Dyspo can surpass those thresholds. Sound presumably with his light bullet technique and light with his super maximum light speed mode (the purple aura).

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Re: Are the Saiyans Massively faster than light by the time of Super?

Post by mmg86 » Wed Jan 19, 2022 6:46 pm

Hugo Boss wrote: Wed Jan 19, 2022 6:27 pm I understood that under certain circumstances Dyspo can surpass those thresholds. Sound presumably with his light bullet technique and light with his super maximum light speed mode (the purple aura).
That would be hilarious beyond measure with the real life speeds of sound and light, because it would make his regular speed thousands of times slower than sound, and thus far, FAR below normal human speed (real life healthy humans are merely dozens of times slower than sound), plus it would make his less restrictive technique grant a much bigger boost than the one that limits him to straight line movement. "Thousands" vs nearly a million.

It would make a decent amount of sense if sound happened to be much faster in DB than in reality and light much slower, i suppose?

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