Are the Saiyans Massively faster than light by the time of Super?

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Re: Are the Saiyans Massively faster than light by the time of Super?

Post by Hugo Boss » Wed Jan 19, 2022 7:25 pm

He wouldn’t necessarily be thousands of times slower than sound, as that could merely be a figure of speech. But assuming it’s a precise estimation, we don’t know at which point he surpass sound, he could be massively faster when using the technique.

Hit’s time-skip at least makes a noise that Dyspo can hear and the light bullet is activated in response to that sound, so Hit probably can’t activate time-skip faster than its noise, but he could counter attack Dyspo properly when he lured him into thinking he would use time-skip. So, at some point, Hit can counter faster than Dyspo’s light bullet.

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Re: Are the Saiyans Massively faster than light by the time of Super?

Post by NickLord » Fri Jan 21, 2022 1:14 am

Koitsukai wrote: Wed Jan 19, 2022 4:45 pm Also, what can we say about Goku taking at least 3 hours to travel the 1,000,000 km long Snake Way on his way back? 4 seconds should've been enough considering his friends were being slaughtered, if he had already acquired light speed.

The only time LS was brought up in the franchise was with Dyspo, clearing up all inconsistencies and concerns.
The notion that Dyspo is the first FTL character is itself an inconsistency.

And yet there's characters faster than Dyspo prior to the ToP. There's no way in hell Dyspo is faster than any character from SSJR Goku Black level onward.

Also, you are confusing travel speed with combat speed.
Last edited by NickLord on Fri Jan 21, 2022 1:33 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Are the Saiyans Massively faster than light by the time of Super?

Post by NickLord » Fri Jan 21, 2022 1:21 am

miguelnuva1 wrote: Wed Jan 19, 2022 5:56 am
NickLord wrote: Wed Jan 19, 2022 1:03 am
Hugo Boss wrote: Tue Jan 18, 2022 7:47 pm Some examples extracted from the manga showing that Super Saiyan level characters are unable to move at light speed:
  • Chapter #327 - Goku is unable to travel to the spaceship he came to Namek in time. Instead he goes to Freeza's damaged spaceship.
  • Chapter #336 - Goku is unable to travel dozens of thousands of kilometers in a instant without teleportation.
  • Chapter #473 - Trunks is unable to arrive at Capsule Corp and come back from it in less than a second. That results on Goku needing to buy time and to use SS3, despite knowing it will shorten the time he has to teach Fusion to Goten and Trunks.
  • Chapter #482 - Piccolo is unable to reach Gotenks before he takes a nap. Piccolo not only can search his ki, but can use his broad vision to find him. He is tired after trying it.
For some reason the moon-destroying beams are always brought up in threads like this, but subtext in powerscalling should clear up any confusion. Characters much stronger and faster than Piccolo and Roshi when they blew up the moon, as referenced above, aren't able to move faster than light or even close to it. Key factor here is subtext.

To not depend on subtext, a simple remark like "Goku has become so fast that he surpassed the speed of light" suffices, but unfortunately we don't have that until Dyspo in the anime. In another hand, subtext suggests that objects known to travel faster than light, like spaceships, are slower than Jiren in the manga, so anyone that can be compared with him is probably faster than light as well.
Literally every argument here is something you already said and they all already got debunked.

- Goku didnt' even try to reach his spaceship, he merely went to Freeza's because it was right in front of him. And you still haven't posted any scans from the manga to prove your failed point.

- No one ever said nor implied that Goku couldn't reach that point with teleportation. That's just your headcanon.

- Trunks wasn't moving at top speed, this was pointed out in the show itself, a fact you keep ignoring.

- This is pure false lol, because 1 Piccolo was flying after him at top speed (didn't even take off his armor), 2 Piccolo wasn't actually fatigued afterwards, you just made that up, 3 we're never given a timeframe for how long it took for Piccolo to find Gotenks, a fact you keep ignoring.

- "In another hand, subtext suggests that objects known to travel faster than light, like spaceships, are slower than Jiren in the manga, so anyone that can be compared with him is probably faster than light as well."

And according to the Z anime and Daizenshuu, the spaceship used to reach Namek is slower than SSJ Goku and Final Form Freeza, make of that what you will.

Also, Piccolo & Roshi blowing up the moon in a few seconds is officially acknowledged in the Daizenshuu, interviews with Toriyama and a bunch of other official sources so they can't be dismissed as an outliers regardless of inconsistency.
miguelnuva1 wrote: Tue Jan 18, 2022 4:41 pm

So they're faster than light but no one wants to zip Goku home to get his medicine and come right back?

That's plot based stupidity, because you don't even need to be FTL to do that

And no it doesn't debunk anything. The camera wouldn't move because it wouldn't be able to track light speed let alone FTL.

That's a dumb argument, because the camera would move around in an attempt to see them regardless of being able to track them.

Sonic the Hedgehog is not watching these fights.
The Camera couldn't track Goku & Cell at all, your point?
Not keeping up doesn't mean I can't track you. I can track you for 50 years and never find you.

Lightspeed I would have no idea you were even around.

This is a ridiculous argument, because you can easily track the direction of actual light from an ordinary source
NickLord wrote: Wed Jan 19, 2022 12:49 am
miguelnuva1 wrote: Wed Jan 19, 2022 12:01 am The moon being blown up that quickly is sped up because no one wants to read or watch the actual time it would take a ki blast to destroy said moon.
That's pure headcanon lol. The actual manga and anime scene literally shows that it all happened in 2-4 seconds of real time while Great Ape Gohan was right next to him. Its like you're desperate to downplay, nothing was sped up.
So Piccolo's ki blast and Roshi's Kamehameha are both faster than energy attacks used later in the series?

They're actually slower and than attacks from later on, because more Ki = more everything in stats. Simple DB logic

Normal people noticed the energy attacks Goten and Trunks were using at the tournament.

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Re: Are the Saiyans Massively faster than light by the time of Super?

Post by NickLord » Fri Jan 21, 2022 1:27 am

Hugo Boss wrote: Wed Jan 19, 2022 4:30 pm
NickLord wrote: Wed Jan 19, 2022 1:03 am Literally every argument here is something you already said and they all already got debunked.
[...]
And you still haven't posted any scans from the manga to prove your failed point.
I've said it before, but your arguments against the points I listed suggest you don't actually check the information beforehand. And the way you conduct yourself here is very disrespectful. The chapters were mentioned above, you should be able to find them easily. I won't post links or scans, because it's against the forum rules (not to mention it's discourages acquiring the product by legal means).
And according to the Z anime and Daizenshuu, the spaceship used to reach Namek is slower than SSJ Goku and Final Form Freeza, make of that what you will.
This scene is not present in the manga and Daizenshuu has no word about it. And even if it was meant to suggest they are faster than the spaceship, it's in conflict with the other situations referenced above.
Also, Piccolo & Roshi blowing up the moon in a few seconds is officially acknowledged in the Daizenshuu, interviews with Toriyama and a bunch of other official sources so they can't be dismissed as an outliers regardless of inconsistency.
I don't think those ki blasts are reaching the moon after a minute, it's probably a matter of seconds really. But the characters moving around themselves is treated as a different matter. The scope is not the same.
The Camera couldn't track Goku & Cell at all, your point?
What he is trying to say is that if Goku and Cell were moving at lightspeed, the cameraman wouldn't try to track them as he wouldn't realize if they are moving or not. If the regular humans can say they are fast, it's because they can still process what's going on, be it with sound or air current. With lightspeed they wouldn't be able to tell if they are moving or not.
- No source, no argument. If you can't prove what you say it can be dismissed.

- Author/Official source statements > headcanon. If Toriyama or an official source says A is faster than B then it is so, period.

- This is a nothing argument, what are you even trying to get across here?

- This argument fails, because regardless of the cameraman being able to track them or not, the camera would still move around just to attempt to even see them at all. Its simple logic.

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Re: Are the Saiyans Massively faster than light by the time of Super?

Post by miguelnuva1 » Fri Jan 21, 2022 3:33 am

I'm not going to waste anymore time here but NickLord you can as a human can not see nor react to an object moving at lightspeed.

We see light bounce off objects because light is reflecting back and forth.

Watch Smallville for example. Clark Kent is not lightspeed and people don't know he was there unless he wants them to know.

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Re: Are the Saiyans Massively faster than light by the time of Super?

Post by Cursed Lemon » Mon Jan 24, 2022 12:54 pm

The answer is yesno.

Are they by virtue of power scaling? Probably-definitely.

Are they by virtue of "it's completely impossible to move faster than light"? No.

Are they by virtue of "if they threw a light-speed punch and were somehow magically able to stay whole, the catastrophic reaction to the air and other matter around them would be like a small thermonuclear bomb going off"? No.
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Re: Are the Saiyans Massively faster than light by the time of Super?

Post by NickLord » Mon Jan 24, 2022 8:40 pm

miguelnuva1 wrote: Fri Jan 21, 2022 3:33 am I'm not going to waste anymore time here but NickLord you can as a human can not see nor react to an object moving at lightspeed.

We see light bounce off objects because light is reflecting back and forth.

Watch Smallville for example. Clark Kent is not lightspeed and people don't know he was there unless he wants them to know
.
You're assuming all fiction works the same lol.

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Re: Are the Saiyans Massively faster than light by the time of Super?

Post by miguelnuva1 » Mon Jan 24, 2022 9:02 pm

NickLord wrote: Mon Jan 24, 2022 8:40 pm
miguelnuva1 wrote: Fri Jan 21, 2022 3:33 am I'm not going to waste anymore time here but NickLord you can as a human can not see nor react to an object moving at lightspeed.

We see light bounce off objects because light is reflecting back and forth.

Watch Smallville for example. Clark Kent is not lightspeed and people don't know he was there unless he wants them to know
.
You're assuming all fiction works the same lol.
Ok so the DBZ Earthlings aren't normal like us. OK I can accept that.

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Re: Are the Saiyans Massively faster than light by the time of Super?

Post by Thani » Tue Jan 25, 2022 3:57 pm

Toriyama obviously doesn't care about that. So much so he never bothered to approach this, so it's highly inconsistent overall.

So there's little reason to overthink this subject.

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Re: Are the Saiyans Massively faster than light by the time of Super?

Post by Polyphase Avatron » Sat Jan 29, 2022 6:10 pm

Thani wrote: Tue Jan 25, 2022 3:57 pm Toriyama obviously doesn't care about that. So much so he never bothered to approach this, so it's highly inconsistent overall.

So there's little reason to overthink this subject.
I think everyone can agree that Whis and the other angels at least are much faster than light, as their technique is even called "Warp", which is one of the classic sci-fi methods for traveling faster than light (along with hyperspace).
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Re: Are the Saiyans Massively faster than light by the time of Super?

Post by Anonymous Friend » Thu Feb 10, 2022 6:15 pm

miguelnuva1 wrote: Mon Jan 24, 2022 9:02 pm
NickLord wrote: Mon Jan 24, 2022 8:40 pm
miguelnuva1 wrote: Fri Jan 21, 2022 3:33 am I'm not going to waste anymore time here but NickLord you can as a human can not see nor react to an object moving at lightspeed.

We see light bounce off objects because light is reflecting back and forth.

Watch Smallville for example. Clark Kent is not lightspeed and people don't know he was there unless he wants them to know
.
You're assuming all fiction works the same lol.
Ok so the DBZ Earthlings aren't normal like us. OK I can accept that.
So, you acknowledge that this is all fictional make up nonsense. Might as well be looney toons if we playing all loosy goosy with reality and such.
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Re: Are the Saiyans Massively faster than light by the time of Super?

Post by Speedster » Sat Feb 12, 2022 10:39 am

Clearly the speed feats in Dragonball have been inconsistent with some of the statements. But in any case clearly travelling speed and fighting speed are very different magnitudes.

For example even as early as the Red ribbon army arc we have amazing speed feats which can be calculated. Tao Pai Pai threw a pillar to travel a distance of 2300km and he estimated that the whole round trip (including killing Goku) would take him about 30 minutes. That is 2300km in (at most) 15minutes so the average speed of that pillar was at least 9200km/hr. And Tao was able to outjump that pillar. And that pillar’s initial speed was definitely higher than its average across the entire journey as the pillar was decelerating due to air resistance. And again Tao outjumped it so his fighting speed was at the very minimum 12000km/hr=3333m/s i.e. about Mach 10.

Then by the Saiyan arc we have a clear travelling/flying speed feat with Goku travelling snakeway in 27 hours. Snakeway is 1 million km long but it has coils that Goku flew/jumped mostly over in a straight line so the actual distance he travelled if you do the math turns out to be around 2/3 of the length of snakeway itself. So around 7000m/s or Mach 20. That’s average speed by the way – Goku likely did fly at a constant speed albeit at a speed he knew he could maintain throughout the entire journey without getting tired/ and slowing down – alternatively he could have travelled at his maximum speed at the beginning then get tired and slow down to a lower speed.

So obviously fighting and travelling/flying speeds are very different in Dragonball. By the time of the Saiyan arc the characters must have fighting speeds around light speed or even higher. Travelling speed on the other hand remained relatively low even by the Buu arc. Of course we have Super Gotenks traveling around Earth in circumferences greater than the circumference of the Earth itself and he states that he did so a few dozen times and even took a nap. All in 28-29 minutes. Assuming it took him 25minutes for 25 circles of 60000km we are talking about a speed of 3.3x the speed of light. Even if we lowball he was travelling at least as fast as light. Thus anybody with power level higher than Super Gotenks is at least a light speed character even in travelling speed. That of course assuming consistency which we will never get in Dragonball.

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Re: Are the Saiyans Massively faster than light by the time of Super?

Post by Hugo Boss » Sat Feb 12, 2022 12:31 pm

Speedster wrote: Sat Feb 12, 2022 10:39 am Assuming it took him 25minutes for 25 circles of 60000km we are talking about a speed of 3.3x the speed of light. Even if we lowball he was travelling at least as fast as light. Thus anybody with power level higher than Super Gotenks is at least a light speed character even in travelling speed. That of course assuming consistency which we will never get in Dragonball.
If Gotenks travels a distance of 60,000km in 1 minute, he needs 5 minutes to travel 300,000km. That’s the distance light travels in 1 second. Gotenks’ speed would still be 1/300th the speed of light in this scenario.

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Re: Are the Saiyans Massively faster than light by the time of Super?

Post by miguelnuva1 » Sat Feb 12, 2022 9:02 pm

Gotenks was traveling about Mach 1000 is what I've heard estimated for a long time but no where near light.

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Re: Are the Saiyans Massively faster than light by the time of Super?

Post by mmg86 » Tue Feb 15, 2022 7:00 pm

Speedster, Tao Pai Pai believed he would be back in 30 minutes and there's no reason to believe he was wrong nor that he expected killing Goku would take a significant fraction of that time. So estimating his pillar throwing as "4600 km in 29 minutes" or so is perfectly reasonable. I totally agree with that. HOWEVER, i completely disagree with the whole concept of separating movements speeds into "fighting" and "travel". For example, you qualified the jump he did to get on the pillar as "fighting speed"... who or what is he fighting against there? The pillar? Gravity? The clock? Seems far more sensible to say that's simply the speed he can reach via jumping... since that's what is it. His jump's speed. The "Fighting speed" concept implies that, for example's sake, if two characters are engaged in combat, they can run away from or chase each other at x speed, but if they are practicing the exact same movements by themselves instead of with a partner, their top speeds will be "very different magnitudes".

And the simple reality is that Toriyama never bothered to keep track of any instance where the speeds of the characters can be estimated, in any capacity. Since he also never really bothered to give well defined speeds to... well, anyone or anything, all there really is is the general "all the characters are more powerful than ordinary people, and the more powerful you are the faster you are capable of moving". What sort of speeds that entails for the characters varies from moment to moment. A good example of that is how early in the Buu Saga Gohan, in base, needs 20 minutes to fly to school, and the distance given for the trip was, if i remember correctly, 1000 km, or roughly Mach 2.4. Contrast that speed with Goku's return trip through Snake Way, since you didn't qualify that one as "fighting speed". Gohan is magnitudes more powerful... AND far slower. If at that point in the story Saiyan Saga Goku were transported through time and needed to chase Gohan, he'd stand no chance whatsoever, despite the story treating characters on his level as way faster than that back then.

miguelnuva1, the estimate you've heard is based on Gotenks having 1 minute of fusion left when he departs for Buu's House and barely having time to say anything by the time the fusion ended. If we then assume it took him exactly 60 seconds of flight to get there and that it was literally on the opposite end of Earth (20000 km), we get 1/900th of lightspeed. Of course there's some wiggling room, but since Piccolo is around and we clearly see he's nowhere close to Gotenks in speed, estimating to give Gotenks higher speeds makes Piccolo slower and viceversa.

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Re: Are the Saiyans Massively faster than light by the time of Super?

Post by Speedster » Mon Mar 07, 2022 7:52 pm

As it has already been pointed out about the travelling speed of Super Gotenks, the correct answer is 1000Km/s or around Mach 3000 or 1/300th of the speed of light. That was the lowballing figure by the way. A higher ball figure could easily be from x3 to x6 that. So we are talking about 1/100th to 1/50th the speed of light as the upper estimates. Of course, that’s just Super Gotenks. SSJ3 Gotenks should be even faster and then there are several tiers above that like Ultimate Gohan, Buutenks, Buuhan and Super Vegetto. So we can very plausibly get to light speed territory in travelling speed by some of the top characters in DBZ, at least Super Vegetto.
mmg86 wrote: Tue Feb 15, 2022 7:00 pm I totally agree with that. HOWEVER, i completely disagree with the whole concept of separating movements speeds into "fighting" and "travel". For example, you qualified the jump he did to get on the pillar as "fighting speed"... who or what is he fighting against there? The pillar? Gravity? The clock? Seems far more sensible to say that's simply the speed he can reach via jumping... since that's what is it. His jump's speed. The "Fighting speed" concept implies that, for example's sake, if two characters are engaged in combat, they can run away from or chase each other at x speed, but if they are practicing the exact same movements by themselves instead of with a partner, their top speeds will be "very different magnitudes".
Well throwing that pillar was him moving/accelerating his arms "similar" to throwing a punch. And jumping to the pillar requires moving/accelerating his legs. Plus jumping was especially important in the first part of Dragonball during fights especially during the first three tournaments where they relied solely on jumping either upwards to the air or towards their opponents or jumping sideways to avoid attacks. In any case punching, jumping and in general accelerating of body limps or whole body are movements that you do during a fight, thus fighting speed. You can of course fly away to escape while being chased but that’s not really fighting that’s running away. All I am saying is that in fighting they could move way faster in short range burst movements.
mmg86 wrote: Tue Feb 15, 2022 7:00 pm And the simple reality is that Toriyama never bothered to keep track of any instance where the speeds of the characters can be estimated, in any capacity. Since he also never really bothered to give well defined speeds to... well, anyone or anything, all there really is is the general "all the characters are more powerful than ordinary people, and the more powerful you are the faster you are capable of moving". What sort of speeds that entails for the characters varies from moment to moment. A good example of that is how early in the Buu Saga Gohan, in base, needs 20 minutes to fly to school, and the distance given for the trip was, if i remember correctly, 1000 km, or roughly Mach 2.4. Contrast that speed with Goku's return trip through Snake Way, since you didn't qualify that one as "fighting speed". Gohan is magnitudes more powerful... AND far slower. If at that point in the story Saiyan Saga Goku were transported through time and needed to chase Gohan, he'd stand no chance whatsoever, despite the story treating characters on his level as way faster than that back then.
I don't disagree with the notion that Toriyama just didn't bother to be consistent. It was a similar thing with Dr Slump with the speed of Arale. There he even quoted her speed to be Mach 1.5 (something that by the way was later used by the Daizenshuu as a measure for the speed of the flying nimbus since Goku said that Arale is as fast as the nimbus) yet previously in the Dr Slump manga he showed Arale running around the entire earth TWICE before going to School as her regular morning exercise. Which is 40000km in at most 30minutes which is around Mach 67. Anyway, in universe, the speed of Gohan going to school is not a total inconsistency. He was in base and heavily suppressed. And one can plausibly claim that he didn’t fly any faster because otherwise the strap of his schoolbag would tore or his schoolbag would break and the books fall down etc. Or that he would wreck his clothes. Or that he didn’t want to sweat at all. It is important not to lose perspective as otherwise we would also start claiming that Chi Chi or Bulma or Launch smacking Goku or Kuririn or Muten Roshi on the head and them feeling the pain would make them faster or stronger than them which is not the case. We can say that are gag scenes but we can also say that Goku and the others are suppressing down to almost regular human battle powers levels of 5-10 when they are just chilling with their family and friends.

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Re: Are the Saiyans Massively faster than light by the time of Super?

Post by mmg86 » Wed Mar 09, 2022 10:47 am

Speedster wrote: Mon Mar 07, 2022 7:52 pm As it has already been pointed out about the travelling speed of Super Gotenks, the correct answer is 1000Km/s or around Mach 3000 or 1/300th of the speed of light. That was the lowballing figure by the way. A higher ball figure could easily be from x3 to x6 that. So we are talking about 1/100th to 1/50th the speed of light as the upper estimates. Of course, that’s just Super Gotenks. SSJ3 Gotenks should be even faster and then there are several tiers above that like Ultimate Gohan, Buutenks, Buuhan and Super Vegetto. So we can very plausibly get to light speed territory in travelling speed by some of the top characters in DBZ, at least Super Vegetto.
I'm pretty sure that, to even get to the "1000km/s" estimate, one has to take the bit about him completing "dozens of laps" (that's from a back cover blurb, i think?) as gospel, while COMPLETELY disregarding that it takes him around 1 minute to get to another location on the planet immediately after (it being on the opposite side of Earth is already a generous assumption, though one that's acceptable due to him completing multiple laps in the previous 29 minutes), on top of taking the size of the "rings" around Earth depicting his path as an indicator of him flying that far above the surface (i've done it... i'm just pointing out that it's weird to take that literally without taking their thickness literally... which would make Gotenks gigantic or Earth as small as Kaioh's planet)

I have a hard time understanding how stacking all those things, and interpreting them so favorably towards higher speeds, is in any way a lowball. Let alone how one could highball it to 3 or 6 times higher, you tell me... only way i've seen people do that is by taking such odd approaches as claiming "one panel is equivalent to x seconds" and "Ki trails vanish in seconds, thus the panel showing the planet implies Gotenks traversed that distance in seconds".

Just in case, i'm gonna preemptively say that i don't believe the manga is implying Gotenks suddenly started taking it easy and massively slowed down while flying to Buu's house. Or that Gotenks stood there silently for a long time before speaking and defusing. Or that Piccolo's "1 minute" was very off and it was actually just a few seconds remaining.

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Re: Are the Saiyans Massively faster than light by the time of Super?

Post by MrGohanks » Thu Mar 10, 2022 5:04 am

Isn't pretty much anyone Raditz level or above FTL, due to Piccolo's moon busting feat? I'm not counting when Roshi did it because that was definitely an outlier and most of Early DB wasn't written with feats-scaling in mind.

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Re: Are the Saiyans Massively faster than light by the time of Super?

Post by Hugo Boss » Thu Mar 10, 2022 5:56 am

MrGohanks wrote: Thu Mar 10, 2022 5:04 am Isn't pretty much anyone Raditz level or above FTL, due to Piccolo's moon busting feat? I'm not counting when Roshi did it because that was definitely an outlier and most of Early DB wasn't written with feats-scaling in mind.
There is literally a whole discussion about it in this very thread. Characters way faster than Raditz, like Boo-era Super Saiyans, aren’t capable of moving even remotely close to light speed.

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Re: Are the Saiyans Massively faster than light by the time of Super?

Post by theherodjl » Thu Mar 10, 2022 6:42 am

Let's just add another can of worms to the discussion.
Image

While this may be from a DB videogame, it kinda illustrates how far the writers/artists believe that the moon is from the Earth. Instead of being 238,855 miles(384,400 kms) away, it appears to be maybe only another Earth(7,926 miles or 12,756 kms) and a half's distance away.
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