What is your ideal alternative roster of the ToP saga?

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Re: What is your ideal alternative roster of the ToP saga?

Post by DanielSSJ » Sat Jan 15, 2022 12:57 am

There are two changes to the ToP roster I would've liked to have seen, the simplest of which would be to swap Muten Roshi for Majin Boo. Dragon Ball Super did Boo real dirty with the whole "Boo falls asleep right before a big battle" gag, and let's be real here, Roshi really didn't have any business being in that fight.

The bigger change would've been to replace someone (probably Tenshinhan) with Future Trunks. I've had this idea for a Goku Black/ToP rewrite sitting in my head for who knows how long, where instead of just giving up and fucking off to another timeline, Trunks actually stays in the main timeline to figure out a way to fix his world after Future Omni-King erased it. The gang gets the idea to use the Super Dragon Balls to restore Trunks's world, which ends with him participating in the Tournament of Power in the hopes of being able to make a wish. Maybe he even ends up being the last man standing, and has to chose between fixing his reality or restoring all of the Universes that were erased during the Tournament.
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Re: What is your ideal alternative roster of the ToP saga?

Post by Peach » Mon Jan 17, 2022 7:06 pm

DanielSSJ wrote: Sat Jan 15, 2022 12:57 am There are two changes to the ToP roster I would've liked to have seen, the simplest of which would be to swap Muten Roshi for Majin Boo. Dragon Ball Super did Boo real dirty with the whole "Boo falls asleep right before a big battle" gag, and let's be real here, Roshi really didn't have any business being in that fight.

The bigger change would've been to replace someone (probably Tenshinhan) with Future Trunks. I've had this idea for a Goku Black/ToP rewrite sitting in my head for who knows how long, where instead of just giving up and fucking off to another timeline, Trunks actually stays in the main timeline to figure out a way to fix his world after Future Omni-King erased it. The gang gets the idea to use the Super Dragon Balls to restore Trunks's world, which ends with him participating in the Tournament of Power in the hopes of being able to make a wish. Maybe he even ends up being the last man standing, and has to chose between fixing his reality or restoring all of the Universes that were erased during the Tournament.
Why don't you want Pikkon? Android 18 could have been swapped for him!!

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Re: What is your ideal alternative roster of the ToP saga?

Post by DanielSSJ » Mon Jan 17, 2022 11:26 pm

Peach wrote: Mon Jan 17, 2022 7:06 pmWhy don't you want Pikkon? Android 18 could have been swapped for him!!
Because I don't care about Paikuhan. He's a character from a filler arc that I haven't seen in about ten years and don't particularly remember being exceptional.
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Re: What is your ideal alternative roster of the ToP saga?

Post by Peach » Tue Jan 18, 2022 12:25 am

DanielSSJ wrote: Mon Jan 17, 2022 11:26 pm
Peach wrote: Mon Jan 17, 2022 7:06 pmWhy don't you want Pikkon? Android 18 could have been swapped for him!!
Because I don't care about Paikuhan. He's a character from a filler arc that I haven't seen in about ten years and don't particularly remember being exceptional.
I think it's kind of elitist and downright snobby to discount a beloved character because he's "filler." Dragon Ball Super has incorporated tons of stuff that's not "canon." At this point, who cares? Dragon Ball is a beloved series that will outlive its creator and have many different iterations which will be beloved - like Lupin the Third. This could have been a chance to reintroduce him, stronger and more badass than ever.

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Re: What is your ideal alternative roster of the ToP saga?

Post by Berserker1921 » Tue Jan 18, 2022 3:42 am

If I could have anyone.

1. Goku
2. Vegeta
3. Gas
4. Frieza
5. Broly
6. Granolah
7. Buu
8. 17
9. Gohan
10. Piccolo

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Re: What is your ideal alternative roster of the ToP saga?

Post by LoganForkHands73 » Tue Jan 18, 2022 6:37 pm

Peach wrote: Tue Jan 18, 2022 12:25 am I think it's kind of elitist and downright snobby to discount a beloved character because he's "filler." Dragon Ball Super has incorporated tons of stuff that's not "canon." At this point, who cares? Dragon Ball is a beloved series that will outlive its creator and have many different iterations which will be beloved - like Lupin the Third. This could have been a chance to reintroduce him, stronger and more badass than ever.
It's not really elitist, Paikuhan wasn't a part of Super's continuity so it's only natural for people to not take him into account here. I like Paikuhan too, for the record, but no one's obliged to care about him.

If there was a good time to bring Paikuhan back, I wouldn't have minded seeing him in the Tournament of Destroyers. That arc already felt like a bit of a spiritual successor to the Otherworld Tournament, complete with a Kaioken Super Saiyan combo in the final match. Since Piccolo and Buu did nothing memorable in that arc, they could've replaced either one of them with Paikuhan and introduced some neat lore of him being a warrior who fought Beerus in the distant past. Goku overhears Beerus discussing this great warrior and recognises the description as Paikuhan (perhaps in this version, they never personally met each other before Super, Goku only heard rumours of his existence from other dead warriors in the afterlife), so he bargains with Uranai Baba to temporarily resurrect him. This also inspires Beerus's not-so-bright idea to bring along Monaka, as he does in the real story.

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Re: What is your ideal alternative roster of the ToP saga?

Post by DanielSSJ » Wed Jan 19, 2022 9:16 pm

Peach wrote: Tue Jan 18, 2022 12:25 amI think it's kind of elitist and downright snobby to discount a beloved character because he's "filler." Dragon Ball Super has incorporated tons of stuff that's not "canon." At this point, who cares? Dragon Ball is a beloved series that will outlive its creator and have many different iterations which will be beloved - like Lupin the Third. This could have been a chance to reintroduce him, stronger and more badass than ever.
I primarily enage with Dragon Ball through the manga, not the anime. It's not elitist or snobby of me to not particularly care about or get excited over a character who only exists in a part of the franchise I hardly ever engage with. Sorry, but Paikuhan just doesn't do anything for me, simple as that. I wouldn't get upset if the writers ever inducted him into the main story like they did Broli, but I'm not particularly jonesing for them to, either.
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Re: What is your ideal alternative roster of the ToP saga?

Post by ZombieVito » Fri Jan 21, 2022 9:35 pm

Peach wrote: Tue Jan 18, 2022 12:25 am I think it's kind of elitist and downright snobby to discount a beloved character because he's "filler." Dragon Ball Super has incorporated tons of stuff that's not "canon." At this point, who cares?
I don't remember Super including filler content with the exception of Gregory and Satan's trio that were introduced on the Cell Games and those don't conflict with the story at all.

Paikuhan does conflict with the story in a big way.

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Re: What is your ideal alternative roster of the ToP saga?

Post by miguelnuva1 » Fri Jan 21, 2022 9:58 pm

ZombieVito wrote: Fri Jan 21, 2022 9:35 pm
Peach wrote: Tue Jan 18, 2022 12:25 am I think it's kind of elitist and downright snobby to discount a beloved character because he's "filler." Dragon Ball Super has incorporated tons of stuff that's not "canon." At this point, who cares?
I don't remember Super including filler content with the exception of Gregory and Satan's trio that were introduced on the Cell Games and those don't conflict with the story at all.

Paikuhan does conflict with the story in a big way.
Other than he fought Goku while Gokubwas dead how?

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Re: What is your ideal alternative roster of the ToP saga?

Post by DanielSSJ » Fri Jan 21, 2022 11:36 pm

miguelnuva1 wrote: Fri Jan 21, 2022 9:58 pmOther than he fought Goku while Gokubwas dead how?
From my memory, the big contradiction is that the Anoyo'ichi Budokai arc's version of Hell is pretty radically different from how Hell is depicted in modern Dragon Ball, particularly regarding whether or not dead bad guys get to keep their bodies or not.
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Re: What is your ideal alternative roster of the ToP saga?

Post by ZombieVito » Sat Jan 22, 2022 12:07 am

DanielSSJ wrote: Fri Jan 21, 2022 11:36 pm
miguelnuva1 wrote: Fri Jan 21, 2022 9:58 pmOther than he fought Goku while Gokubwas dead how?
From my memory, the big contradiction is that the Anoyo'ichi Budokai arc's version of Hell is pretty radically different from how Hell is depicted in modern Dragon Ball, particularly regarding whether or not dead bad guys get to keep their bodies or not.
Exactly. Paikuhan's 1st episode is a very big contradiction.

Also I think Goku says there wasn't anyone as strong as him in the afterlife or something like that in the Boo arc.

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Re: What is your ideal alternative roster of the ToP saga?

Post by miguelnuva1 » Sat Jan 22, 2022 1:51 am

ZombieVito wrote: Sat Jan 22, 2022 12:07 am
DanielSSJ wrote: Fri Jan 21, 2022 11:36 pm
miguelnuva1 wrote: Fri Jan 21, 2022 9:58 pmOther than he fought Goku while Gokubwas dead how?
From my memory, the big contradiction is that the Anoyo'ichi Budokai arc's version of Hell is pretty radically different from how Hell is depicted in modern Dragon Ball, particularly regarding whether or not dead bad guys get to keep their bodies or not.
Exactly. Paikuhan's 1st episode is a very big contradiction.

Also I think Goku says there wasn't anyone as strong as him in the afterlife or something like that in the Boo arc.
Pikon rivals Cell games Goku, he would be a joke to Buu saga Goku.

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Re: What is your ideal alternative roster of the ToP saga?

Post by Asin » Sat Jan 22, 2022 3:43 pm

miguelnuva1 wrote: Sat Jan 22, 2022 1:51 am
ZombieVito wrote: Sat Jan 22, 2022 12:07 am
DanielSSJ wrote: Fri Jan 21, 2022 11:36 pm From my memory, the big contradiction is that the Anoyo'ichi Budokai arc's version of Hell is pretty radically different from how Hell is depicted in modern Dragon Ball, particularly regarding whether or not dead bad guys get to keep their bodies or not.
Exactly. Paikuhan's 1st episode is a very big contradiction.

Also I think Goku says there wasn't anyone as strong as him in the afterlife or something like that in the Boo arc.
Pikon rivals Cell games Goku, he would be a joke to Buu saga Goku.
IIRC, didn't Pikkon/Paikuhan fight Freeza, King Cold, and Perfect Cell (who, keep in mind, died with a power similar to that of a SSJ2 as the result of a zenkai) and win against all three at once and with relative ease?

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Re: What is your ideal alternative roster of the ToP saga?

Post by miguelnuva1 » Sat Jan 22, 2022 6:33 pm

Asin wrote: Sat Jan 22, 2022 3:43 pm
miguelnuva1 wrote: Sat Jan 22, 2022 1:51 am
ZombieVito wrote: Sat Jan 22, 2022 12:07 am
Exactly. Paikuhan's 1st episode is a very big contradiction.

Also I think Goku says there wasn't anyone as strong as him in the afterlife or something like that in the Boo arc.
Pikon rivals Cell games Goku, he would be a joke to Buu saga Goku.
IIRC, didn't Pikkon/Paikuhan fight Freeza, King Cold, and Perfect Cell (who, keep in mind, died with a power similar to that of a SSJ2 as the result of a zenkai) and win against all three at once and with relative ease?
Yes and then later he fights just a little ahead of SS Goku. Pikon catching cell off guard with a amped attack is likely what happened.

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Re: What is your ideal alternative roster of the ToP saga?

Post by Koitsukai » Sat Jan 22, 2022 6:35 pm

Asin wrote: Sat Jan 22, 2022 3:43 pm
miguelnuva1 wrote: Sat Jan 22, 2022 1:51 am
ZombieVito wrote: Sat Jan 22, 2022 12:07 am
Exactly. Paikuhan's 1st episode is a very big contradiction.

Also I think Goku says there wasn't anyone as strong as him in the afterlife or something like that in the Boo arc.
Pikon rivals Cell games Goku, he would be a joke to Buu saga Goku.
IIRC, didn't Pikkon/Paikuhan fight Freeza, King Cold, and Perfect Cell (who, keep in mind, died with a power similar to that of a SSJ2 as the result of a zenkai) and win against all three at once and with relative ease?
That's true, but everything about Paikuhan is an inconsistent mess. After doing all that with hardly any effort, he fails to put down SS Goku, and even loses. And we know Goku didn't become stronger than Cell in his SS form until DBS.

The only way for that to work is to have SS Goku as strong as SS2 Gohan (due to having received a huge zenkai boost after a long time of not having significant zenkais), and disregard the Buu arc in its entirety. Or to have fought a seriously distracted and suppressed Cell.

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Re: What is your ideal alternative roster of the ToP saga?

Post by Makaioshin » Sat Jan 22, 2022 6:46 pm

miguelnuva1 wrote: Sat Jan 22, 2022 6:33 pm Yes and then later he fights just a little ahead of SS Goku. Pikon catching cell off guard with a amped attack is likely what happened.
He just overpowers Cell. It is what establishes him as a worthy opponent the same way Trunks killing Freeza or Muten Roshi defeating Yamcha does. The story in the arc is just that Goku got progressively stronger from the beginning to the end which Paikuhan notices. Aside from that it is mostly consistent, he is ahead of Goku but Goku is able to triumph his technique and almost win through the rules - except it ends up a draw because of the rules.

The arc itself is its own story in the Z anime. It doesn't fit exactly elsewhere but it plays the role to answer who the mysterious figures Goku trained with were. It is also alluded to a bit in other material. Dai-Kaio gets a shoutout in the original manga, Kaio's insecurity of being dead in Super, or just Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan God Kaio-ken.

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Re: What is your ideal alternative roster of the ToP saga?

Post by Asin » Sat Jan 22, 2022 6:48 pm

The whole Anoyoichi Budoukai was a mess, to my understanding. Let's get back on track to the topic to ideal alternate rosters for the Tournament of Power, though.

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Re: What is your ideal alternative roster of the ToP saga?

Post by Peach » Mon Jan 24, 2022 3:12 am

Asin wrote: Sat Jan 22, 2022 6:48 pm Let's get back on track to the topic to ideal alternate rosters for the Tournament of Power, though.
I just realized that Oolong and Puar would have been fun choices. Imagine them transforming into some of the strongest people in the multiverse, and struggling internally to not transform back or blow their cover. Could have been funny to see them turn into a blanket and catch the invisible fighter, or turn into a bug net or a bug to catch the bug. :lol:

And Dende could have been a good support role, healing other members of his team.

Hercule honestly might have been a good choice. He's proven time and time again that he can survive through dumb luck and charisma. And his inclusion could provide a tactical advantage for Buu, had Buu not fallen asleep. It certainly would have been entertaining at least.

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Re: What is your ideal alternative roster of the ToP saga?

Post by BWri » Mon Jan 24, 2022 6:27 am

NickLord wrote: Thu Jan 06, 2022 8:27 pm If it were up to me, I would replace Krillin & Tien with Future Trunks & Buu.
I have an interesting wrinkle to add. Been thinking about where Super would be today if U7 lost to U6 during the Tournament of Destroyers and Earth was migrated to U6. If that happens what would be the ideal squad for merged U6 the Tournament of Power?

My picks would be biased and heavily favor the Universe 7 fighters since most are on Earth. But I'm curious to see what everyone else says.

Also, what would U7's team now look like without Earth?
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Re: What is your ideal alternative roster of the ToP saga?

Post by slifer875 » Wed Feb 02, 2022 8:50 pm

My ideal alternative TOP roster reflects what i think should have happened in the dragon ball franchise since battle of gods, here are some changes in DBS that would give us this roster.

no1. gohan loses all of his powers permanently and he is now just a regular human that cant even fly, this is the cost of the supreme kaio ritual, you get a huge power up but after a few days you lose the ability to use ki in any way, since the supreme kais are stronger and are a higher autority than gods earth, the dragon balls cannot fix gohans cost, but he is okay with it since he wants to be a scholar and not a fighter.

no2. vegeta dies in the black saga protecting trunks so he can escape to our timeline, trunks and goku train in the time chamber for 2 days, trunks gets god ki and goku teaches him how to use the genkidama, since vegeta died in another timeline the dragon balls cannot bring him back, only the super dragon balls can.

no.3 after what happens with zamasu abusing the dragon balls all the angels and hakaishin have a meeting, they decided to erase all the dragon balls from all the universes, goku ask zeno for one last wish to shenron, zeno refuses but then ask him if he can make it a contest, zeno is interested and the winner of this contest will get the final wish, goku ask if we can make this contest a tourament, zeno agrees.

no.4 resurrection of F never happens, goku asks to uranai baba to bring frieza and cell back for 1 day, goku trains both for a few hours in the time chamber which translate to a few weeks or months inside that place, both get god ki in their new forms.


1 Son goku
2 Android 21, her story happens after the black saga, she could easily replace buu, have another female character and be a wild card with her evil majin side that might take control.
3 Future trunks, i agree with many here, trunk should have stayed in main time line and join the team with his wish being restoring his tiameline and bringing his mother and father back.
4 roshi, i disagree with everyone in this thread, roshi was one of the best parts in DBS, the thing i would have change is that i think he should have died in this arc permanently as his big goodbye.
5 no.18
6 yamcha, how sweet would it be to prove the lame people repeating the same old tired joke about yamcha wrong? give him god ki and new tecniques, hell make him the winner! not even as a joke but as an underdog that prove everyone wrong.
7 cell, i think cell should have also being brought back stronger than ever, or at least replace frieza with cell, he could have some drama tension with android 21.
8 frieza, he was great in that arc, i wanted all the big villains that goku has faced helping him to protect their universe.
9 ten shin han, the character doesnt suck, the way they used him did, he has many unique tecniques and many counters.
10 uub, i think DBS should happen after the manga finale, not in betwen, it makes dbs feel like filler, its pointless and have no tension as you already know how everything will happen thanks to the final chapter

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