Gohan was a SSJ1 vs Dabura, in all likelihood
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- MCDaveG
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Re: Gohan was a SSJ1 vs Dabura, in all likelihood
So we have, through Daizenshuu, manga and DBZ Kakarot continuity with SSJ1 and anime continuity with maybe SSJ2.
After having Goku look like SSJ1 when he was supossed to be SSJ2 against Vegeta, I never trust visual sources.
After having Goku look like SSJ1 when he was supossed to be SSJ2 against Vegeta, I never trust visual sources.
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Re: Gohan was a SSJ1 vs Dabura, in all likelihood
Can you cite that instance in question?
- MCDaveG
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Re: Gohan was a SSJ1 vs Dabura, in all likelihood
For Daizenshuu:
Spoiler:
And with anime, you can notice lot of visual discrepancies in design, like Goku's appearance switching from SSJ2 to 1 during the Vegeta fight right in the next episode, Gohan's SSJ2 hair is inconsistent as well during the Cell fight, as it is all spiked and grown and then it switches between default design and some weird combination of his SSJ1 and 2 hair from behind. And with outright retcons like Goku's SSJ painted black when in hell with Paikuhan, it's pointless to make outputs from what happens in anime visually.
So the only and best source is encyclopedia like Daizenshuu, same as with Star Wars, if the official visual dictionary claims that Star Destroyers rose up from underground shipyards on Exegol, even tho we saw them rise up from ground like some Sith magic in the movie, well then that is what really happened, until somebody retcons or debunks it through other official source.
But at least with Star Wars, there is some canon and story group. With Dragon Ball, if Toriyama says that Gohan was SSJ2 against Dabura, or something else, against the Daizenshuu, than it's probably Toriyama getting the ball.
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Re: Gohan was a SSJ1 vs Dabura, in all likelihood
Well it’s clear it changed over time. Eventually regular SS Teen Gohan only had one strand while in SS. Looking at the pictures and looking at the manga personally it essentially backs up.Desassina wrote: ↑Thu May 05, 2022 6:53 am I don't think that the hair argument came down to the strands that spiked up. I think that it used to be about the strand of hair that fell on his forehead. There were two of them: a longer strand and a shorter one to its side as seen in Broly's Second Coming. People assigned Super Saiyan to both strands while SS2 had only one. Spike, the developers of Budokai Tenkaichi, believed the same thing as well.
It's arbitrary, could be a difference in animation, or a change in model by Toriyama without notice, one that people cling to notwithstanding, in what is already a very pedantic discussion. Alternatively, Gohan's hair could just have grown, since it does in his case.
Re: Gohan was a SSJ1 vs Dabura, in all likelihood
Shouldn’t cite a game for referenceMCDaveG wrote: ↑Fri May 06, 2022 4:58 amFor Daizenshuu:For Kakarot, it's Goku stating that Dabura is maybe stronger than they thought and Gohan is turning SSJ1 at the beginning of the fight, instead of SSJ2, like Goku does against Majin Vegeta, or SSJ3 like Goku does against Buu, etc. so it's not outright stating it word for word and it's not something that clears the whole thing up, as it only works for the game continuity, but as the game's own encyclopedia is taking into account lot of tidbits and even stuff from various interviews with Toriyama over the years, like Android 16 based on Gero's son or Androids names being Lapis and Lazuli originally, we might speculate why Gohan didn't went SSJ2 by default against Dabura in the game as well.Spoiler:
And with anime, you can notice lot of visual discrepancies in design, like Goku's appearance switching from SSJ2 to 1 during the Vegeta fight right in the next episode, Gohan's SSJ2 hair is inconsistent as well during the Cell fight, as it is all spiked and grown and then it switches between default design and some weird combination of his SSJ1 and 2 hair from behind. And with outright retcons like Goku's SSJ painted black when in hell with Paikuhan, it's pointless to make outputs from what happens in anime visually.
So the only and best source is encyclopedia like Daizenshuu, same as with Star Wars, if the official visual dictionary claims that Star Destroyers rose up from underground shipyards on Exegol, even tho we saw them rise up from ground like some Sith magic in the movie, well then that is what really happened, until somebody retcons or debunks it through other official source.
But at least with Star Wars, there is some canon and story group. With Dragon Ball, if Toriyama says that Gohan was SSJ2 against Dabura, or something else, against the Daizenshuu, than it's probably Toriyama getting the ball.
Re: Gohan was a SSJ1 vs Dabura, in all likelihood
I believe we are all referring to the manga here when we suggest that Gohan looks like a Super Saiyan because the artstyle has remained consistent in the Buu Saga. I'm not too familiar with the anime but many seem to agree that Gohan appears to be a Super Saiyan 2 in the anime.MCDaveG wrote: ↑Fri May 06, 2022 4:58 amFor Daizenshuu:For Kakarot, it's Goku stating that Dabura is maybe stronger than they thought and Gohan is turning SSJ1 at the beginning of the fight, instead of SSJ2, like Goku does against Majin Vegeta, or SSJ3 like Goku does against Buu, etc. so it's not outright stating it word for word and it's not something that clears the whole thing up, as it only works for the game continuity, but as the game's own encyclopedia is taking into account lot of tidbits and even stuff from various interviews with Toriyama over the years, like Android 16 based on Gero's son or Androids names being Lapis and Lazuli originally, we might speculate why Gohan didn't went SSJ2 by default against Dabura in the game as well.Spoiler:
And with anime, you can notice lot of visual discrepancies in design, like Goku's appearance switching from SSJ2 to 1 during the Vegeta fight right in the next episode, Gohan's SSJ2 hair is inconsistent as well during the Cell fight, as it is all spiked and grown and then it switches between default design and some weird combination of his SSJ1 and 2 hair from behind. And with outright retcons like Goku's SSJ painted black when in hell with Paikuhan, it's pointless to make outputs from what happens in anime visually.
So the only and best source is encyclopedia like Daizenshuu, same as with Star Wars, if the official visual dictionary claims that Star Destroyers rose up from underground shipyards on Exegol, even tho we saw them rise up from ground like some Sith magic in the movie, well then that is what really happened, until somebody retcons or debunks it through other official source.
But at least with Star Wars, there is some canon and story group. With Dragon Ball, if Toriyama says that Gohan was SSJ2 against Dabura, or something else, against the Daizenshuu, than it's probably Toriyama getting the ball.
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Re: Gohan was a SSJ1 vs Dabura, in all likelihood
Cited multiple sources as building blocks and clearly stated that Daizenshuu takes the cake. What is your point?Aim wrote: ↑Sat May 07, 2022 5:09 amShouldn’t cite a game for referenceMCDaveG wrote: ↑Fri May 06, 2022 4:58 amFor Daizenshuu:For Kakarot, it's Goku stating that Dabura is maybe stronger than they thought and Gohan is turning SSJ1 at the beginning of the fight, instead of SSJ2, like Goku does against Majin Vegeta, or SSJ3 like Goku does against Buu, etc. so it's not outright stating it word for word and it's not something that clears the whole thing up, as it only works for the game continuity, but as the game's own encyclopedia is taking into account lot of tidbits and even stuff from various interviews with Toriyama over the years, like Android 16 based on Gero's son or Androids names being Lapis and Lazuli originally, we might speculate why Gohan didn't went SSJ2 by default against Dabura in the game as well.Spoiler:
And with anime, you can notice lot of visual discrepancies in design, like Goku's appearance switching from SSJ2 to 1 during the Vegeta fight right in the next episode, Gohan's SSJ2 hair is inconsistent as well during the Cell fight, as it is all spiked and grown and then it switches between default design and some weird combination of his SSJ1 and 2 hair from behind. And with outright retcons like Goku's SSJ painted black when in hell with Paikuhan, it's pointless to make outputs from what happens in anime visually.
So the only and best source is encyclopedia like Daizenshuu, same as with Star Wars, if the official visual dictionary claims that Star Destroyers rose up from underground shipyards on Exegol, even tho we saw them rise up from ground like some Sith magic in the movie, well then that is what really happened, until somebody retcons or debunks it through other official source.
But at least with Star Wars, there is some canon and story group. With Dragon Ball, if Toriyama says that Gohan was SSJ2 against Dabura, or something else, against the Daizenshuu, than it's probably Toriyama getting the ball.
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Re: Gohan was a SSJ1 vs Dabura, in all likelihood
MCDaveG wrote: ↑Sat May 07, 2022 7:14 amCited multiple sources as building blocks and clearly stated that Daizenshuu takes the cake. What is your point?Aim wrote: ↑Sat May 07, 2022 5:09 amShouldn’t cite a game for referenceMCDaveG wrote: ↑Fri May 06, 2022 4:58 am
For Daizenshuu:For Kakarot, it's Goku stating that Dabura is maybe stronger than they thought and Gohan is turning SSJ1 at the beginning of the fight, instead of SSJ2, like Goku does against Majin Vegeta, or SSJ3 like Goku does against Buu, etc. so it's not outright stating it word for word and it's not something that clears the whole thing up, as it only works for the game continuity, but as the game's own encyclopedia is taking into account lot of tidbits and even stuff from various interviews with Toriyama over the years, like Android 16 based on Gero's son or Androids names being Lapis and Lazuli originally, we might speculate why Gohan didn't went SSJ2 by default against Dabura in the game as well.Spoiler:
And with anime, you can notice lot of visual discrepancies in design, like Goku's appearance switching from SSJ2 to 1 during the Vegeta fight right in the next episode, Gohan's SSJ2 hair is inconsistent as well during the Cell fight, as it is all spiked and grown and then it switches between default design and some weird combination of his SSJ1 and 2 hair from behind. And with outright retcons like Goku's SSJ painted black when in hell with Paikuhan, it's pointless to make outputs from what happens in anime visually.
So the only and best source is encyclopedia like Daizenshuu, same as with Star Wars, if the official visual dictionary claims that Star Destroyers rose up from underground shipyards on Exegol, even tho we saw them rise up from ground like some Sith magic in the movie, well then that is what really happened, until somebody retcons or debunks it through other official source.
But at least with Star Wars, there is some canon and story group. With Dragon Ball, if Toriyama says that Gohan was SSJ2 against Dabura, or something else, against the Daizenshuu, than it's probably Toriyama getting the ball.
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Re: Gohan was a SSJ1 vs Dabura, in all likelihood
The Daizenshuu has it both ways.
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Re: Gohan was a SSJ1 vs Dabura, in all likelihood
mmmm I am arriving super late for the discussion but I have just watched the fight https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BiE0Vimn7tg and yes, it is as I remember it, Gohan was in SSJ1 the whole time, he does not turn SSJ2. It's possible he wanted to fight some more and he required to be more challenged as to pursue it. Remember Darbura stop the fight when he sensed "evil" coming from Vegeta so that's why we did not really get to see Gohan to turn into SSJ2, there was not enough of a chance.
There is no SSJ2 transformation because at no point there are lighting/sparks around the ki aura.
There is one part during the fight when Vegta says "he has forgotten how to fight" so to my understanding since he was never required to go further than SSJ1 (he would train with Goten in SSJ1 at the most) his body sort of "forgot" how to turn into SSJ2 and therefore he does not transformed into that.
There is no SSJ2 transformation because at no point there are lighting/sparks around the ki aura.
There is one part during the fight when Vegta says "he has forgotten how to fight" so to my understanding since he was never required to go further than SSJ1 (he would train with Goten in SSJ1 at the most) his body sort of "forgot" how to turn into SSJ2 and therefore he does not transformed into that.
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Re: Gohan was a SSJ1 vs Dabura, in all likelihood
But didn't he turned into it willingly against Kibito? I don't see him forgetting that.Saiya6Cit wrote: ↑Thu May 12, 2022 5:16 pm mmmm I am arriving super late for the discussion but I have just watched the fight https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BiE0Vimn7tg and yes, it is as I remember it, Gohan was in SSJ1 the whole time, he does not turn SSJ2. It's possible he wanted to fight some more and he required to be more challenged as to pursue it. Remember Darbura stop the fight when he sensed "evil" coming from Vegeta so that's why we did not really get to see Gohan to turn into SSJ2, there was not enough of a chance.
There is no SSJ2 transformation because at no point there are lighting/sparks around the ki aura.
There is one part during the fight when Vegta says "he has forgotten how to fight" so to my understanding since he was never required to go further than SSJ1 (he would train with Goten in SSJ1 at the most) his body sort of "forgot" how to turn into SSJ2 and therefore he does not transformed into that.
But yeah, it's very likely Dabura was just humoring him. He still considered Gohan trash after fighting him.