Gohan was a SSJ1 vs Dabura, in all likelihood

Discussion, generally of an in-universe nature, regarding any aspect of the franchise (including movies, spin-offs, etc.) such as: techniques, character relationships, internal back-history, its universe, and more.

Moderators: General Help, Kanzenshuu Staff

User avatar
MCDaveG
Born 'n Bred Here
Posts: 5533
Joined: Fri Aug 05, 2005 5:54 pm
Location: Prague, Czechia
Contact:

Re: Gohan was a SSJ1 vs Dabura, in all likelihood

Post by MCDaveG » Thu May 05, 2022 6:56 am

So we have, through Daizenshuu, manga and DBZ Kakarot continuity with SSJ1 and anime continuity with maybe SSJ2.

After having Goku look like SSJ1 when he was supossed to be SSJ2 against Vegeta, I never trust visual sources.
FighterZ: Funky_Strudel
PS4: Dynamixx88

User avatar
Goku9001
Regular
Posts: 596
Joined: Sun Oct 15, 2017 7:37 pm

Re: Gohan was a SSJ1 vs Dabura, in all likelihood

Post by Goku9001 » Fri May 06, 2022 3:11 am

MCDaveG wrote: Thu May 05, 2022 6:56 am So we have, through Daizenshuu, manga and DBZ Kakarot continuity with SSJ1 and anime continuity with maybe SSJ2.

After having Goku look like SSJ1 when he was supossed to be SSJ2 against Vegeta, I never trust visual sources.
Can you cite that instance in question?

User avatar
MCDaveG
Born 'n Bred Here
Posts: 5533
Joined: Fri Aug 05, 2005 5:54 pm
Location: Prague, Czechia
Contact:

Re: Gohan was a SSJ1 vs Dabura, in all likelihood

Post by MCDaveG » Fri May 06, 2022 4:58 am

Goku9001 wrote: Fri May 06, 2022 3:11 am
MCDaveG wrote: Thu May 05, 2022 6:56 am So we have, through Daizenshuu, manga and DBZ Kakarot continuity with SSJ1 and anime continuity with maybe SSJ2.

After having Goku look like SSJ1 when he was supossed to be SSJ2 against Vegeta, I never trust visual sources.
Can you cite that instance in question?
For Daizenshuu:
For Kakarot, it's Goku stating that Dabura is maybe stronger than they thought and Gohan is turning SSJ1 at the beginning of the fight, instead of SSJ2, like Goku does against Majin Vegeta, or SSJ3 like Goku does against Buu, etc. so it's not outright stating it word for word and it's not something that clears the whole thing up, as it only works for the game continuity, but as the game's own encyclopedia is taking into account lot of tidbits and even stuff from various interviews with Toriyama over the years, like Android 16 based on Gero's son or Androids names being Lapis and Lazuli originally, we might speculate why Gohan didn't went SSJ2 by default against Dabura in the game as well.

And with anime, you can notice lot of visual discrepancies in design, like Goku's appearance switching from SSJ2 to 1 during the Vegeta fight right in the next episode, Gohan's SSJ2 hair is inconsistent as well during the Cell fight, as it is all spiked and grown and then it switches between default design and some weird combination of his SSJ1 and 2 hair from behind. And with outright retcons like Goku's SSJ painted black when in hell with Paikuhan, it's pointless to make outputs from what happens in anime visually.

So the only and best source is encyclopedia like Daizenshuu, same as with Star Wars, if the official visual dictionary claims that Star Destroyers rose up from underground shipyards on Exegol, even tho we saw them rise up from ground like some Sith magic in the movie, well then that is what really happened, until somebody retcons or debunks it through other official source.
But at least with Star Wars, there is some canon and story group. With Dragon Ball, if Toriyama says that Gohan was SSJ2 against Dabura, or something else, against the Daizenshuu, than it's probably Toriyama getting the ball.
FighterZ: Funky_Strudel
PS4: Dynamixx88

User avatar
Aim
Banned
Posts: 761
Joined: Mon Feb 17, 2020 8:06 am
Contact:

Re: Gohan was a SSJ1 vs Dabura, in all likelihood

Post by Aim » Fri May 06, 2022 7:49 am

Desassina wrote: Thu May 05, 2022 6:53 am I don't think that the hair argument came down to the strands that spiked up. I think that it used to be about the strand of hair that fell on his forehead. There were two of them: a longer strand and a shorter one to its side as seen in Broly's Second Coming. People assigned Super Saiyan to both strands while SS2 had only one. Spike, the developers of Budokai Tenkaichi, believed the same thing as well.

It's arbitrary, could be a difference in animation, or a change in model by Toriyama without notice, one that people cling to notwithstanding, in what is already a very pedantic discussion. Alternatively, Gohan's hair could just have grown, since it does in his case.
Well it’s clear it changed over time. Eventually regular SS Teen Gohan only had one strand while in SS. Looking at the pictures and looking at the manga personally it essentially backs up.

User avatar
Aim
Banned
Posts: 761
Joined: Mon Feb 17, 2020 8:06 am
Contact:

Re: Gohan was a SSJ1 vs Dabura, in all likelihood

Post by Aim » Sat May 07, 2022 5:09 am

MCDaveG wrote: Fri May 06, 2022 4:58 am
Goku9001 wrote: Fri May 06, 2022 3:11 am
MCDaveG wrote: Thu May 05, 2022 6:56 am So we have, through Daizenshuu, manga and DBZ Kakarot continuity with SSJ1 and anime continuity with maybe SSJ2.

After having Goku look like SSJ1 when he was supossed to be SSJ2 against Vegeta, I never trust visual sources.
Can you cite that instance in question?
For Daizenshuu:
For Kakarot, it's Goku stating that Dabura is maybe stronger than they thought and Gohan is turning SSJ1 at the beginning of the fight, instead of SSJ2, like Goku does against Majin Vegeta, or SSJ3 like Goku does against Buu, etc. so it's not outright stating it word for word and it's not something that clears the whole thing up, as it only works for the game continuity, but as the game's own encyclopedia is taking into account lot of tidbits and even stuff from various interviews with Toriyama over the years, like Android 16 based on Gero's son or Androids names being Lapis and Lazuli originally, we might speculate why Gohan didn't went SSJ2 by default against Dabura in the game as well.

And with anime, you can notice lot of visual discrepancies in design, like Goku's appearance switching from SSJ2 to 1 during the Vegeta fight right in the next episode, Gohan's SSJ2 hair is inconsistent as well during the Cell fight, as it is all spiked and grown and then it switches between default design and some weird combination of his SSJ1 and 2 hair from behind. And with outright retcons like Goku's SSJ painted black when in hell with Paikuhan, it's pointless to make outputs from what happens in anime visually.

So the only and best source is encyclopedia like Daizenshuu, same as with Star Wars, if the official visual dictionary claims that Star Destroyers rose up from underground shipyards on Exegol, even tho we saw them rise up from ground like some Sith magic in the movie, well then that is what really happened, until somebody retcons or debunks it through other official source.
But at least with Star Wars, there is some canon and story group. With Dragon Ball, if Toriyama says that Gohan was SSJ2 against Dabura, or something else, against the Daizenshuu, than it's probably Toriyama getting the ball.
Shouldn’t cite a game for reference

User avatar
Goku9001
Regular
Posts: 596
Joined: Sun Oct 15, 2017 7:37 pm

Re: Gohan was a SSJ1 vs Dabura, in all likelihood

Post by Goku9001 » Sat May 07, 2022 5:49 am

MCDaveG wrote: Fri May 06, 2022 4:58 am
Goku9001 wrote: Fri May 06, 2022 3:11 am
MCDaveG wrote: Thu May 05, 2022 6:56 am So we have, through Daizenshuu, manga and DBZ Kakarot continuity with SSJ1 and anime continuity with maybe SSJ2.

After having Goku look like SSJ1 when he was supossed to be SSJ2 against Vegeta, I never trust visual sources.
Can you cite that instance in question?
For Daizenshuu:
For Kakarot, it's Goku stating that Dabura is maybe stronger than they thought and Gohan is turning SSJ1 at the beginning of the fight, instead of SSJ2, like Goku does against Majin Vegeta, or SSJ3 like Goku does against Buu, etc. so it's not outright stating it word for word and it's not something that clears the whole thing up, as it only works for the game continuity, but as the game's own encyclopedia is taking into account lot of tidbits and even stuff from various interviews with Toriyama over the years, like Android 16 based on Gero's son or Androids names being Lapis and Lazuli originally, we might speculate why Gohan didn't went SSJ2 by default against Dabura in the game as well.

And with anime, you can notice lot of visual discrepancies in design, like Goku's appearance switching from SSJ2 to 1 during the Vegeta fight right in the next episode, Gohan's SSJ2 hair is inconsistent as well during the Cell fight, as it is all spiked and grown and then it switches between default design and some weird combination of his SSJ1 and 2 hair from behind. And with outright retcons like Goku's SSJ painted black when in hell with Paikuhan, it's pointless to make outputs from what happens in anime visually.

So the only and best source is encyclopedia like Daizenshuu, same as with Star Wars, if the official visual dictionary claims that Star Destroyers rose up from underground shipyards on Exegol, even tho we saw them rise up from ground like some Sith magic in the movie, well then that is what really happened, until somebody retcons or debunks it through other official source.
But at least with Star Wars, there is some canon and story group. With Dragon Ball, if Toriyama says that Gohan was SSJ2 against Dabura, or something else, against the Daizenshuu, than it's probably Toriyama getting the ball.
I believe we are all referring to the manga here when we suggest that Gohan looks like a Super Saiyan because the artstyle has remained consistent in the Buu Saga. I'm not too familiar with the anime but many seem to agree that Gohan appears to be a Super Saiyan 2 in the anime.

User avatar
MCDaveG
Born 'n Bred Here
Posts: 5533
Joined: Fri Aug 05, 2005 5:54 pm
Location: Prague, Czechia
Contact:

Re: Gohan was a SSJ1 vs Dabura, in all likelihood

Post by MCDaveG » Sat May 07, 2022 7:14 am

Aim wrote: Sat May 07, 2022 5:09 am
MCDaveG wrote: Fri May 06, 2022 4:58 am
Goku9001 wrote: Fri May 06, 2022 3:11 am

Can you cite that instance in question?
For Daizenshuu:
For Kakarot, it's Goku stating that Dabura is maybe stronger than they thought and Gohan is turning SSJ1 at the beginning of the fight, instead of SSJ2, like Goku does against Majin Vegeta, or SSJ3 like Goku does against Buu, etc. so it's not outright stating it word for word and it's not something that clears the whole thing up, as it only works for the game continuity, but as the game's own encyclopedia is taking into account lot of tidbits and even stuff from various interviews with Toriyama over the years, like Android 16 based on Gero's son or Androids names being Lapis and Lazuli originally, we might speculate why Gohan didn't went SSJ2 by default against Dabura in the game as well.

And with anime, you can notice lot of visual discrepancies in design, like Goku's appearance switching from SSJ2 to 1 during the Vegeta fight right in the next episode, Gohan's SSJ2 hair is inconsistent as well during the Cell fight, as it is all spiked and grown and then it switches between default design and some weird combination of his SSJ1 and 2 hair from behind. And with outright retcons like Goku's SSJ painted black when in hell with Paikuhan, it's pointless to make outputs from what happens in anime visually.

So the only and best source is encyclopedia like Daizenshuu, same as with Star Wars, if the official visual dictionary claims that Star Destroyers rose up from underground shipyards on Exegol, even tho we saw them rise up from ground like some Sith magic in the movie, well then that is what really happened, until somebody retcons or debunks it through other official source.
But at least with Star Wars, there is some canon and story group. With Dragon Ball, if Toriyama says that Gohan was SSJ2 against Dabura, or something else, against the Daizenshuu, than it's probably Toriyama getting the ball.
Shouldn’t cite a game for reference
Cited multiple sources as building blocks and clearly stated that Daizenshuu takes the cake. What is your point?
FighterZ: Funky_Strudel
PS4: Dynamixx88

User avatar
Aim
Banned
Posts: 761
Joined: Mon Feb 17, 2020 8:06 am
Contact:

Re: Gohan was a SSJ1 vs Dabura, in all likelihood

Post by Aim » Sun May 08, 2022 10:24 am

MCDaveG wrote: Sat May 07, 2022 7:14 am
Aim wrote: Sat May 07, 2022 5:09 am
MCDaveG wrote: Fri May 06, 2022 4:58 am

For Daizenshuu:
For Kakarot, it's Goku stating that Dabura is maybe stronger than they thought and Gohan is turning SSJ1 at the beginning of the fight, instead of SSJ2, like Goku does against Majin Vegeta, or SSJ3 like Goku does against Buu, etc. so it's not outright stating it word for word and it's not something that clears the whole thing up, as it only works for the game continuity, but as the game's own encyclopedia is taking into account lot of tidbits and even stuff from various interviews with Toriyama over the years, like Android 16 based on Gero's son or Androids names being Lapis and Lazuli originally, we might speculate why Gohan didn't went SSJ2 by default against Dabura in the game as well.

And with anime, you can notice lot of visual discrepancies in design, like Goku's appearance switching from SSJ2 to 1 during the Vegeta fight right in the next episode, Gohan's SSJ2 hair is inconsistent as well during the Cell fight, as it is all spiked and grown and then it switches between default design and some weird combination of his SSJ1 and 2 hair from behind. And with outright retcons like Goku's SSJ painted black when in hell with Paikuhan, it's pointless to make outputs from what happens in anime visually.

So the only and best source is encyclopedia like Daizenshuu, same as with Star Wars, if the official visual dictionary claims that Star Destroyers rose up from underground shipyards on Exegol, even tho we saw them rise up from ground like some Sith magic in the movie, well then that is what really happened, until somebody retcons or debunks it through other official source.
But at least with Star Wars, there is some canon and story group. With Dragon Ball, if Toriyama says that Gohan was SSJ2 against Dabura, or something else, against the Daizenshuu, than it's probably Toriyama getting the ball.
Shouldn’t cite a game for reference
Cited multiple sources as building blocks and clearly stated that Daizenshuu takes the cake. What is your point?
🤷‍♀️

User avatar
GreatSaiyaman123
I'm, pretty, cozy, here...
Posts: 1713
Joined: Mon Oct 17, 2016 11:59 am
Location: Somewhere beyond the sea

Re: Gohan was a SSJ1 vs Dabura, in all likelihood

Post by GreatSaiyaman123 » Wed May 11, 2022 10:28 am

MCDaveG wrote: Thu May 05, 2022 6:56 am So we have, through Daizenshuu, manga and DBZ Kakarot continuity with SSJ1 and anime continuity with maybe SSJ2.

After having Goku look like SSJ1 when he was supossed to be SSJ2 against Vegeta, I never trust visual sources.
The Daizenshuu has it both ways.
Battle Powers List (Manga)

Guardian of the city, I am the one and only...Great Saiyaman!

User avatar
Saiya6Cit
Beyond-the-Beyond Newbie
Posts: 346
Joined: Thu Sep 09, 2021 10:53 am
Location: MEXICO
Contact:

Re: Gohan was a SSJ1 vs Dabura, in all likelihood

Post by Saiya6Cit » Thu May 12, 2022 5:16 pm

mmmm I am arriving super late for the discussion but I have just watched the fight https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BiE0Vimn7tg and yes, it is as I remember it, Gohan was in SSJ1 the whole time, he does not turn SSJ2. It's possible he wanted to fight some more and he required to be more challenged as to pursue it. Remember Darbura stop the fight when he sensed "evil" coming from Vegeta so that's why we did not really get to see Gohan to turn into SSJ2, there was not enough of a chance.

There is no SSJ2 transformation because at no point there are lighting/sparks around the ki aura.

There is one part during the fight when Vegta says "he has forgotten how to fight" so to my understanding since he was never required to go further than SSJ1 (he would train with Goten in SSJ1 at the most) his body sort of "forgot" how to turn into SSJ2 and therefore he does not transformed into that.

User avatar
Thani
OMG CRAZY REGEN
Posts: 870
Joined: Sat Dec 24, 2016 8:52 pm

Re: Gohan was a SSJ1 vs Dabura, in all likelihood

Post by Thani » Wed May 18, 2022 9:17 pm

Saiya6Cit wrote: Thu May 12, 2022 5:16 pm mmmm I am arriving super late for the discussion but I have just watched the fight https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BiE0Vimn7tg and yes, it is as I remember it, Gohan was in SSJ1 the whole time, he does not turn SSJ2. It's possible he wanted to fight some more and he required to be more challenged as to pursue it. Remember Darbura stop the fight when he sensed "evil" coming from Vegeta so that's why we did not really get to see Gohan to turn into SSJ2, there was not enough of a chance.

There is no SSJ2 transformation because at no point there are lighting/sparks around the ki aura.

There is one part during the fight when Vegta says "he has forgotten how to fight" so to my understanding since he was never required to go further than SSJ1 (he would train with Goten in SSJ1 at the most) his body sort of "forgot" how to turn into SSJ2 and therefore he does not transformed into that.
But didn't he turned into it willingly against Kibito? I don't see him forgetting that.

But yeah, it's very likely Dabura was just humoring him. He still considered Gohan trash after fighting him.

Locked