Gohan was a SSJ1 vs Dabura, in all likelihood

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Re: Gohan was a SSJ1 vs Dabura, in all likelihood

Post by Mireya » Wed Apr 27, 2022 4:53 pm

Even if one wants to take the Z sword feat performed by Future Trunks as an indicative that he's on the level of Son Gohan post Z sword, we'd run into problems all the same... that Gohan was apparently strong enough that Goku was a little hesitant in flat out saying he was no match for Fat Boo... meaning his SSJ2 should wield an incredible power to be getting somewhat close to Boo. So if Dabura wasn't that damaged by Trunks' attacks, while Boo when massively holding back damaged Dabura heavily, then either Toyotaro was inconsistent when portraying Dabura's strength or Dabura got considerably stronger by then.

Myself, I think that the sword mastering isn't conclusive enough to trace a power threshold for whoever is using it. For instance, think about the gravity chamber... kid Trunks could barely walk in a 150G while pre androids arc Vegeta could handle double that. We know kid Trunks was way stronger than that Vegeta, so I think it's all a matter of one getting used to the heavy pressure it places in the body... and the heavy sword training would be somewhat similar to that, as in, you will wield it better when you grow used to it even if in terms of sheer chi, power, you aren't on the level of someone who's just having his hand on the sword. Gohan was also seen as training in SSJ with the sword for a panel or so, yet in base we see how well he handled it.

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Re: Gohan was a SSJ1 vs Dabura, in all likelihood

Post by Hugo Boss » Wed Apr 27, 2022 10:29 pm

I think we are comparing fundamentally different situations. When Dabra fought Gohan in the main timeline, he still had to worry about fighting Goku and Vegeta next. In the future, Dabra only had to worry about Trunks, so he wouldn’t need to save power.

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Re: Gohan was a SSJ1 vs Dabura, in all likelihood

Post by Goku9001 » Thu Apr 28, 2022 2:05 am

Thani wrote: Wed Apr 27, 2022 7:44 am
To be fair, I've just reread the Dabra fight against Gohan. While the fight was seen as back and forth, the only one getting tired and damaged was Gohan.

Which, again, checks out with Dabra being regarded as on the level of Cell and the idea that Gohan was only using Super Saiyan.
The way I see it is that Gohan and Dabura were relatively equal. Dabura's goal was to inflict significant damage on Babidi as per Babidi's orders and Dabura failed to accomplish that. He was shown resorting to magic trickery and Dabura explicitly tried to attack Gohan with a sword in which Gohan managed to shatter which meant that Gohan dominated the physical struggle. Dabura is also seen sweating a bit when trying to slash Gohan. The context behind their encounter suggests that Dabura would do his best to ensure that damage is inflicted on Gohan to resurrect Buu.

What I would agree on is that Dabura was definitely at an advantage. Gohan's stamina was dropping rapidly and Goku gave Gohan a sensu bean because he used up a lot of stamina whereas Dabura clearly did not. Dabura and Gohan were relatively equal in power but Dabura had much higher stamina and more efficient movement, which led to Dabura maintaining the most of his stamina whereas Gohan is seen panting and sweating after their fight.

If we assume Post-Zeta Trunks is on par with Post-Zeta Gohan, then I can't really see Post-Zeta SSJ Trunks struggling against Dabura unless F. Dabura was much stronger than P. Dabura due to their being inherent discrepancies between parallel timelines. After all, wouldn't Post-Zeta SSJ Trunks be within the level of SSJ2 Gohan hypothetically?

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Re: Gohan was a SSJ1 vs Dabura, in all likelihood

Post by MCDaveG » Thu Apr 28, 2022 5:02 am

I guess that Vegeta remarking, that Gohan is a far cry from his power and strengths against Cell, that he is definitely Super Saiyan.
But, it doesn't make that much sense as he went beyond SS during the tournament to bait Babidi's goons.
I think that he might be SSJ2 against Dabura, but it is not as powerfull as against Cell, but yeah, visually there are no traits of that, like the sparks. And with the rage going on, we can asume that he goes SSJ2 as well when firing Kame Hame Ha against Buu's egg.

Might be only speculation, that he underestimated Dabura... other than that, I don't buy much into the visual marks in these discussion, as clearly, Goku was supposed to be SSJ2 the whole fight against Vegeta in anime, but visually, he is Super Saiyan 1 and also never bought these theories of Gohan having mystic eyes and whatever - as if you look in the manga, most characters loose the more goofy rounded eyes when focused on battle - this trend started to shape out around Piccolo Daimao arc. The best and probably only reliable indicator on SSJ2 are the sparks, as yeah, Gokus's hair change, Gohan's as well as he has the Goku-like hairstyle, but later, Vegeta, Gohan and Trunks (in various media and Super) can be distinguished only by sparking and by what the narrative tells.

But if we go by manga, Gohan doesn't look SSJ2 either, as Toriyama uses the sparks in the aura for that transformation.
So, I can say, that Gohan most probably was a regular SSJ. For what reason, we might speculate.
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Re: Gohan was a SSJ1 vs Dabura, in all likelihood

Post by Mireya » Thu Apr 28, 2022 1:39 pm

Hugo Boss wrote: Wed Apr 27, 2022 10:29 pm I think we are comparing fundamentally different situations. When Dabra fought Gohan in the main timeline, he still had to worry about fighting Goku and Vegeta next. In the future, Dabra only had to worry about Trunks, so he wouldn’t need to save power.
I'd say dragging the fight vs Gohan and allowing the latter to keep up would be more straining and dumber than quickly finishing him and going to the next target.

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Re: Gohan was a SSJ1 vs Dabura, in all likelihood

Post by Seekeroftruth » Fri Apr 29, 2022 4:33 am

Goku9001 wrote: Mon Apr 25, 2022 2:05 am The narrative makes it quite clear that Gohan's power had diminished from lack of training. Vegeta claims that Gohan is pathetic against Dabura and Goku affirms that statement by confirming that Gohan really did slack off on his training. There's nothing complicated about what is being said here.
This is wrong.

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Re: Gohan was a SSJ1 vs Dabura, in all likelihood

Post by Shorty GZ2 » Fri Apr 29, 2022 5:34 am

Image

He does look like a SS to be fair

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Re: Gohan was a SSJ1 vs Dabura, in all likelihood

Post by Goku9001 » Fri Apr 29, 2022 5:56 am

Seekeroftruth wrote: Fri Apr 29, 2022 4:33 am
This is wrong.
No it's pretty self-explanatory.

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Re: Gohan was a SSJ1 vs Dabura, in all likelihood

Post by MCDaveG » Fri Apr 29, 2022 6:17 am

This is of course not canon to the manga and anime, as the game takes a lot of liberties or alternative routes in story.
But in Kakarot, Vegeta gets angry on Gohan taking so long, who goes to SSJ not SSJ2 at the beginning of the fight, even tho he shown SSJ2 to Kibito at the tournament, with Gohan saying afterwards that he clearly underestimated his opponent and should have go full power from the start, as a reaction to Vegeta claiming that he is a far cry from when he fought Cell.

In-universe speculation, Vegeta and Goku really breezed through Pui Pui and Yakon, so overconfident Gohan probably really underestimated Dabura based on his seniors. It's hearsay from Vegeta, but Gohan could be weaker than in Cell Games because of slacking, but he still has the potential to tap into the power, but he took it clearly willy nilly. Plus, Vegeta and Goku progressed a lot, but haven't shown their real power at that time until the Goku vs Vegeta fight, and in Goku's case, his SSJ3 transformation against Buu.
Wonder, if that would have changed Gohan's approach if he knew, because let's be frank, all of them underestimated Buu to an extent, including Kaioshin.
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Re: Gohan was a SSJ1 vs Dabura, in all likelihood

Post by Goku9001 » Fri Apr 29, 2022 6:28 am

That would also be my perspective. Gohan slacked off for 7 years which reduced his power to the point where Vegeta labeled his power as pathetic and yet Goku and Vegeta both believed that Gohan could be stronger than them if he snapped. It's clear that Gohan's dormant power remained the same, if not, became even greater due to adulthood while his regular battle power had decreased due to lack of training which is also reinforced by the Daizenshuu.

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Re: Gohan was a SSJ1 vs Dabura, in all likelihood

Post by Hugo Boss » Fri Apr 29, 2022 6:59 am

Mireya wrote: Thu Apr 28, 2022 1:39 pm
Hugo Boss wrote: Wed Apr 27, 2022 10:29 pm I think we are comparing fundamentally different situations. When Dabra fought Gohan in the main timeline, he still had to worry about fighting Goku and Vegeta next. In the future, Dabra only had to worry about Trunks, so he wouldn’t need to save power.
I'd say dragging the fight vs Gohan and allowing the latter to keep up would be more straining and dumber than quickly finishing him and going to the next target.
If Dabra were focused on beating Gohan and the others, you would have a point, but remember his intention was inflicting enough damage to send energy to Majin Boo, so quickly finishing them off was out of question, not to mention he severely underestimated them, so he probably didn’t adjust his power to a level that far off from SS. Cell did that against Goku and Gohan, for great effect, until SS2 became too much to handle. Afterwards, Gohan had to eat a senzu to regain his stamina, while Dabra was just fine.

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Re: Gohan was a SSJ1 vs Dabura, in all likelihood

Post by Mireya » Fri Apr 29, 2022 8:25 am

Hugo Boss wrote: Fri Apr 29, 2022 6:59 am
Mireya wrote: Thu Apr 28, 2022 1:39 pm
Hugo Boss wrote: Wed Apr 27, 2022 10:29 pm I think we are comparing fundamentally different situations. When Dabra fought Gohan in the main timeline, he still had to worry about fighting Goku and Vegeta next. In the future, Dabra only had to worry about Trunks, so he wouldn’t need to save power.
I'd say dragging the fight vs Gohan and allowing the latter to keep up would be more straining and dumber than quickly finishing him and going to the next target.
If Dabra were focused on beating Gohan and the others, you would have a point, but remember his intention was inflicting enough damage to send energy to Majin Boo, so quickly finishing them off was out of question, not to mention he severely underestimated them, so he probably didn’t adjust his power to a level that far off from SS. Cell did that against Goku and Gohan, for great effect, until SS2 became too much to handle. Afterwards, Gohan had to eat a senzu to regain his stamina, while Dabra was just fine.
Dabura tried to eliminate Gohan, though. Firstly he tried to spit on Gohan, which would turn him to stone and then used a materialized sword to cut him down. Those are clearly killing techniques.

Dabura wouldn't benefit from holding back to a level he could barely damage Gohan. The damage was little as noticed by Bobbidi. And when he had the chance to cut Gohan with the sword, there's no reason not to go all out on that. Plus, we don't know how damage works for Boo. For all we know, killing the warriors could hand the entirety of their energy to Boo.

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Re: Gohan was a SSJ1 vs Dabura, in all likelihood

Post by Aim » Wed May 04, 2022 12:51 am

Shorty GZ2 wrote: Fri Apr 29, 2022 5:34 am <Snip>

He does look like a SS to be fair
How do I read this?

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Re: Gohan was a SSJ1 vs Dabura, in all likelihood

Post by Grimlock » Wed May 04, 2022 1:02 am

By zooming the page. Speaking of which, the characters never addressed the lightnings, did they? And when you think about it, there's Super Saiyan 4 Goku saying Mister Satan shouldn't get too close to him, otherwise he'd get burned. It would be interesting to see if it's possible for someone to get electrified by the Super Saiyan 2's lightnings, or just a comment about it, that'd be fine.

One has to wonder if Super Full Power Saiyan 4: Limit Breaker could just melt a person right in the spot. :think:
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Re: Gohan was a SSJ1 vs Dabura, in all likelihood

Post by GreatSaiyaman123 » Wed May 04, 2022 11:50 am

I think this discussion ends up being pretty vague since Gohan’s form doesn’t affect the plot at all. His fight with Dabra didn’t last long so it’s hard to go off of that. Kaioshin’s comments to Kibito aren’t much either since they only saw a fraction of his power at the Budokai.

For what it’s worth though, Gohan does say he’s doing his best and even angry (though not as much as he was in the Cell Games), when we saw in the Budokai far less was needed for him to go SSJ2 he also has SSJ2 hair and is said in guidebooks to be a SSJ2. So I don’t really see any reason whatsoever to say he was a SSJ1.
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Re: Gohan was a SSJ1 vs Dabura, in all likelihood

Post by Grimlock » Wed May 04, 2022 12:28 pm

Does the guidebook specifically state which form Gohan use? I think I missed or didn't remember that. Mind to provide an image?
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Re: Gohan was a SSJ1 vs Dabura, in all likelihood

Post by Kaboom » Wed May 04, 2022 2:12 pm

Daizenshuu 2's "Growing Up" guide indicates that "High School era Super Saiyan 2" Gohan only appeared in manga volume 37 and not beyond it, while his fight with Dabra was in volume 38. Daizenshuu 7's small character bio for Dabra says he fought specifically "Super Saiyan 2" Gohan. So there's a bit of a conflict between those two particular guidebook volumes in the same series. But then multiple other guidebooks make a point of describing the aura lightning bolts as a key trait of Super Saiyan 2, on top of, y'know.

I've taken to just chalking it up as a manga/anime difference. In the manga Gohan was only using SS1 against Dabra, because frankly the series' average 10-year-old reader could tell the two forms apart at a glance and he's clearly not using the same intense "beyond Super Saiyan" form he showed off at the tournament. In the anime, where the visuals are less distinct to say the least, he's actually using SS2 against Dabra because the anime added extra dialogue suggesting so.

Daizenshuu 2's "Growing Up" guide is manga-centric, only listing volume numbers for character/form appearances. But Daizenshuu 7 is all-inclusive and covers anime-only characters as well. So rather than assuming the D7 entry is wrong in the face of everything else, maybe it was simply taking the anime version of things into account.
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Re: Gohan was a SSJ1 vs Dabura, in all likelihood

Post by GreatSaiyaman123 » Wed May 04, 2022 11:23 pm

Daizenshuu 7 keeps anime-only info in a separate tab from the rest in character bios though. One of the two Daizenshuu’s made a goof here.

Do any other guidebooks talk specifically about the form Gohan used against Dabra? From the top of my head I don’t even remember anime guidebooks talking about it, but El Manga Legendario does talk about Gohan still being capable of going SSJ2 and Dabra being above SSJ1 level.
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Re: Gohan was a SSJ1 vs Dabura, in all likelihood

Post by Aim » Thu May 05, 2022 12:24 am

Kaboom wrote: Wed May 04, 2022 2:12 pm Daizenshuu 2's "Growing Up" guide indicates that "High School era Super Saiyan 2" Gohan only appeared in manga volume 37 and not beyond it, while his fight with Dabra was in volume 38. Daizenshuu 7's small character bio for Dabra says he fought specifically "Super Saiyan 2" Gohan. So there's a bit of a conflict between those two particular guidebook volumes in the same series. But then multiple other guidebooks make a point of describing the aura lightning bolts as a key trait of Super Saiyan 2, on top of, y'know.

The semi side view of Super Saiyan two is the easiest way to determine it as well as looking at the sides in general.

I've taken to just chalking it up as a manga/anime difference. In the manga Gohan was only using SS1 against Dabra, because frankly the series' average 10-year-old reader could tell the two forms apart at a glance and he's clearly not using the same intense "beyond Super Saiyan" form he showed off at the tournament. In the anime, where the visuals are less distinct to say the least, he's actually using SS2 against Dabra because the anime added extra dialogue suggesting so.

Daizenshuu 2's "Growing Up" guide is manga-centric, only listing volume numbers for character/form appearances. But Daizenshuu 7 is all-inclusive and covers anime-only characters as well. So rather than assuming the D7 entry is wrong in the face of everything else, maybe it was simply taking the anime version of things into account.
I always think at times like this things could be easily solved by going to Toriyama and asking him, especially back then. It’s no doubt that Gohan’s hair through out the Boo arc became more inconsistent which I chalk down to the time restraints on Tori.

Anyhow I found the image I found a while back and I think it’s pretty consistent all things considered:

Image

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Re: Gohan was a SSJ1 vs Dabura, in all likelihood

Post by Desassina » Thu May 05, 2022 6:53 am

I don't think that the hair argument came down to the strands that spiked up. I think that it used to be about the strand of hair that fell on his forehead. There were two of them: a longer strand and a shorter one to its side as seen in Broly's Second Coming. People assigned Super Saiyan to both strands while SS2 had only one. Spike, the developers of Budokai Tenkaichi, believed the same thing as well.

It's arbitrary, could be a difference in animation, or a change in model by Toriyama without notice, one that people cling to notwithstanding, in what is already a very pedantic discussion. Alternatively, Gohan's hair could just have grown, since it does in his case.

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