Gohan was a SSJ1 vs Dabura, in all likelihood

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Gohan was a SSJ1 vs Dabura, in all likelihood

Post by Mireya » Thu Apr 21, 2022 4:44 pm

"Oh but the story shows otherwise"

The story is ambiguous anyway. Vegeta affirms he can defeat Dabura and the thought of Vegeta having SSJ2 only pops up in Goku's head when he actually demonstrates that. If Gohan and Dabura were fighting at a level of ssj2, then the idea would have already appeared to Goku.

Plus, Gohan states in amazement "Goku and Vegeta are fighting in a level beyond SSJ" and by the discriminatory way he said, implies he himself wasn't using it. Not only that, but he says THAT is the reason the damage is so big, a damage that couldn't be dealt with the level he clashed against Dabura.

"The hair shows SSJ2's traits"

Gohan had the 1-bang hair when quickly transforming at the sight of Videl being beat up... and he was a SSJ1 there.

"Goku compared Dabura to Cell and only SSJ2s could beat up Cell"

Goku said Dabura was "probably about as strong as Cell". He was uncertain. Cell also showed a wide range of powers. He also said something like Dabura not showing his FP, but that if he had to estimate, Dabura would be probably about as strong as Cell... almost sounds like he was guessing the high ball of Cell's power, kinda saying "that's likely how strong he could end to be".

"Goku later said Dabura was way stronger than he thought"

That was after Dabura using his magic. And in some official translations, he used the word tougher. It's likely referring to his versatility in battle, being surprised by his techniques.

"Kaioshin said to Kibito he didn't get to see Gohan's amazing powers and his assistant saw his SSJ2"

Uhh, Kaioshin was surprised by base Vegeta beating Pui Pui and said to that that he didn't antecipate such strength... and that was to BASE Vegeta. Shin's perception of their strength, through shitty writing, clearly changed through the story. Plus, one can make a case about standing chi vs fighting chi. SSJ2 Gohan was standing around at the Tournament. SSJ Gohan was in active battle vs Dabura. And a distinction between both is made more than once in DB.


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Re: Gohan was a SSJ1 vs Dabura, in all likelihood

Post by fleahop » Thu Apr 21, 2022 6:15 pm

Okay


Why does it matter either way and what does it mean for the story?
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Re: Gohan was a SSJ1 vs Dabura, in all likelihood

Post by Desassina » Thu Apr 21, 2022 6:26 pm

Gohan was actually using the power of Super Saiyan 2 in Super Saiyan form. Neither weaker nor stronger as a SS2SS. Just rusty.

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Re: Gohan was a SSJ1 vs Dabura, in all likelihood

Post by Xeno Goku Black » Thu Apr 21, 2022 6:29 pm

fleahop wrote: Thu Apr 21, 2022 6:15 pm Okay


Why does it matter either way and what does it mean for the story?
It doesn't. Not even remotely.

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Re: Gohan was a SSJ1 vs Dabura, in all likelihood

Post by Mireya » Thu Apr 21, 2022 7:45 pm

fleahop wrote: Thu Apr 21, 2022 6:15 pm Okay


Why does it matter either way and what does it mean for the story?
It doesn't matter to the story much. Does that mean we shouldn't discuss it? Many things without direct relevance to the story are discussed regardless. Its importance to the story doesn't mean it doesn't have importance for whoever is discussing it. The story happens regardless, yes, but many fans like to pick on certain details and discuss them.

If anything, your comment is the irrelevant thing. If you think this matters 0, why even come up to point out the "obvious"? You're contributing 0 besides being silly.

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Re: Gohan was a SSJ1 vs Dabura, in all likelihood

Post by fleahop » Thu Apr 21, 2022 8:14 pm

Mireya wrote: Thu Apr 21, 2022 7:45 pm
fleahop wrote: Thu Apr 21, 2022 6:15 pm Okay


Why does it matter either way and what does it mean for the story?
It doesn't matter to the story much. Does that mean we shouldn't discuss it? Many things without direct relevance to the story are discussed regardless. Its importance to the story doesn't mean it doesn't have importance for whoever is discussing it. The story happens regardless, yes, but many fans like to pick on certain details and discuss them.

If anything, your comment is the irrelevant thing. If you think this matters 0, why even come up to point out the "obvious"? You're contributing 0 besides being silly.
Someone's touchy. I was asking a genuine question. What does it mean in the greater context of things to you? Does this have further implications (as I'm sure it does)? I can see that you have some points here, but I just haven't considered these possibilities as I assumed Gohan was SS2 for these occasions. Also I'm assuming you've given this some thought so I'd like to know why it matters through your eyes.

I never pointed out the obvious or stated it means nothing. That was another person.
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Re: Gohan was a SSJ1 vs Dabura, in all likelihood

Post by Grimlock » Thu Apr 21, 2022 8:18 pm

I also think Gohan was using Super Saiyan, pretty sure that's the case, in fact.

I don't remember a single Super Saiyan 2 panel being drawn without lightnings in the manga, and there are no lightnings to be seen throughout the whole battle. Gohan's hairstyle is indeed that of a Super Saiyan 2, but most likely a mistake. I don't know why Gohan wouldn't use Super Saiyan 2 if he had already used against Kibito before that, but it is what it is, not everything will make sense at the end of the day.

Now, I don't know if it was intentional or not or if it's just me, but I can see some differences to another thread that is very similar to this one. The individual made a claim, but using wikia as source and ending the thread's title with "canon" (even though there is no canon), here you made a claim and ended the thread's title with "likelihood", which not only is more acceptable and the appropriate way, you also didn't use wiki as your source, but rather, stuff from the series itself. That's a very nice thing. :thumbup:
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Re: Gohan was a SSJ1 vs Dabura, in all likelihood

Post by Mireya » Thu Apr 21, 2022 8:25 pm

fleahop wrote: Thu Apr 21, 2022 8:14 pm
Mireya wrote: Thu Apr 21, 2022 7:45 pm
fleahop wrote: Thu Apr 21, 2022 6:15 pm Okay


Why does it matter either way and what does it mean for the story?
It doesn't matter to the story much. Does that mean we shouldn't discuss it? Many things without direct relevance to the story are discussed regardless. Its importance to the story doesn't mean it doesn't have importance for whoever is discussing it. The story happens regardless, yes, but many fans like to pick on certain details and discuss them.

If anything, your comment is the irrelevant thing. If you think this matters 0, why even come up to point out the "obvious"? You're contributing 0 besides being silly.
Someone's touchy. I was asking a genuine question. What does it mean in the greater context of things to you? Does this have further implications (as I'm sure it does)? I can see that you have some points here, but I just haven't considered these possibilities as I assumed Gohan was SS2 for these occasions. Also I'm assuming you've given this some thought so I'd like to know why it matters through your eyes.

I never pointed out the obvious or stated it means nothing. That was another person.
Okay, I may have taken your comment the wrong way. I've seen some people maliciously poiting it to me, so I ask your forgiveness.

I don't think it matters much in a broad way. The story will happen the same with whichever form Gohan was using. But it still matters to me to that point in the story. Many points in the story won't have a broader implication, but that doesn't mean we don't like to scrutinize such single moment even if its implication isn't so embracing. For instance, Piccolo's strength pre Kami doesn't affect the story once he fuses with Kami... it's conducted the same way. Yet it's a topic of content for many people. The story is made my separated by single instances many times.

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Re: Gohan was a SSJ1 vs Dabura, in all likelihood

Post by Lionel » Thu Apr 21, 2022 9:58 pm

Actually there are a number of panels where someone using SSJ2 lacks the trademark electricity though it's not on a consistent basis as seen with Gohan fighting Dabura. Now auras that don't have the intense fluctuating yellow outline in the coloured reprint of the manga yeah I don't think there's too many of those. These are the ones I've been able to find...
Dabura being comparable to SSJ2 probably has its best leg to stand on in the future timeline where he's seen fighting Trunks. The Saiyan was taking the demon king by surprise and battering him but Dabura still seemed to be hanging in there and was recovering from the attacks better than Cell. Go figure.

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Re: Gohan was a SSJ1 vs Dabura, in all likelihood

Post by Mireya » Thu Apr 21, 2022 10:32 pm

Yeah there're some panels but they are definitely the outlier. Like you said, they don't compare to Gohan missing those traits by the duration of the story.

As for Trunks vs Dabura, I don't know. Dabura seemed to be hanging well against a post Z sword Trunks and even outperforming him before Trunks achieving SSj2, but it's worth noting the battle takes place in the future. Maybe Dabura strengthened himself by then or has his strength altered similar to the androids... --shrugs--.

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Re: Gohan was a SSJ1 vs Dabura, in all likelihood

Post by Koitsukai » Thu Apr 21, 2022 11:23 pm

There's also Goku telling Gohan, prior to fighting Vegeta, to get angry like vs Cell, and nobody will be able to defeat him. Implying he wasn't playing the note that unlocks his SS2. Or should I say his real SS2.
The art points at Gohan being SS, yet his performance is of that of a not-too-remarkable SS2, if Dabura is indeed comparable to Cell. I just don't think his SS2 -if it was that form- had the full scope of it.

I think SS2 doesn't work the same for everybody, as in an exact multiplier set in stone.
We know Vegeta's SS2 is even above Goku's SS3 while being relatively equals in base, something Trunks can do, too.
And for Gohan, vs Dabura, at least, I think he was using a really strong form of SS but not quite reaching SS2's FP because for that he needs that anger boost to go the extra mile, like Goku said.
So, like an improved SS but not quite SS2 either. Or a SS2 that is just not completely unlocked(still no lightnings but with SS2 hair), which for all purposes it's the same.

Regular SS: 50
Regular SS2: 100
Gohan vs Dabura: 80
FP SS2 Gohan: 100 (or more)

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Re: Gohan was a SSJ1 vs Dabura, in all likelihood

Post by Mireya » Thu Apr 21, 2022 11:50 pm

Grimlock wrote: Thu Apr 21, 2022 8:18 pm I also think Gohan was using Super Saiyan, pretty sure that's the case, in fact.

I don't remember a single Super Saiyan 2 panel being drawn without lightnings in the manga, and there are no lightnings to be seen throughout the whole battle. Gohan's hairstyle is indeed that of a Super Saiyan 2, but most likely a mistake. I don't know why Gohan wouldn't use Super Saiyan 2 if he had already used against Kibito before that, but it is what it is, not everything will make sense at the end of the day.

Now, I don't know if it was intentional or not or if it's just me, but I can see some differences to another thread that is very similar to this one. The individual made a claim, but using wikia as source and ending the thread's title with "canon" (even though there is no canon), here you made a claim and ended the thread's title with "likelihood", which not only is more acceptable and the appropriate way, you also didn't use wiki as your source, but rather, stuff from the series itself. That's a very nice thing. :thumbup:
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Re: Gohan was a SSJ1 vs Dabura, in all likelihood

Post by Hugo Boss » Fri Apr 22, 2022 12:17 am

Though this usually becomes a heated debate, I think the implication that Gohan was just a SS there isn’t necessarily a mistake from Toriyama. Remember that Gohan was having trouble to get angry enough to use SS2 at will. He did it in front of Kibito probably because Videl’s beatdown was still pissing him off and on top of that his energy wasn’t completely restored by Kibito.

So why a rusty SS Gohan was hanging in there against an opponent that is easily sub-SS2 level? Dabra knew he had to fight the 3 Super Saiyans and Kaioshin, so he wouldn’t waste all his energy against one of them. He was using just the necessary power to keep Gohan at check, so that he could save some for the other ones. Luckily for him, Vegeta intended to fight Goku.

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Re: Gohan was a SSJ1 vs Dabura, in all likelihood

Post by theherodjl » Fri Apr 22, 2022 12:53 am

IMO, I think that it's just a case of Saiyans being able to draw out power from any & all transformations that they possess, it's just that they can't access the entirety of their power until they completely transform. Gohan could simply be a SSJ against Dabura but he could be channeling some additional power from his SSJ2, enough to at least remain on par with Dabura or "Cell's level". I mean, look at M10: Gohan took on SSJ Broly despite being in base form. Why else would he do that if he didn't have enough control over his Ki to boost himself in fighting someone who should be dozens of times stronger?
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Re: Gohan was a SSJ1 vs Dabura, in all likelihood

Post by Aim » Fri Apr 22, 2022 4:00 am

Grimlock wrote: Thu Apr 21, 2022 8:18 pm I also think Gohan was using Super Saiyan, pretty sure that's the case, in fact.

I don't remember a single Super Saiyan 2 panel being drawn without lightnings in the manga, and there are no lightnings to be seen throughout the whole battle. Gohan's hairstyle is indeed that of a Super Saiyan 2, but most likely a mistake. I don't know why Gohan wouldn't use Super Saiyan 2 if he had already used against Kibito before that, but it is what it is, not everything will make sense at the end of the day.

Now, I don't know if it was intentional or not or if it's just me, but I can see some differences to another thread that is very similar to this one. The individual made a claim, but using wikia as source and ending the thread's title with "canon" (even though there is no canon), here you made a claim and ended the thread's title with "likelihood", which not only is more acceptable and the appropriate way, you also didn't use wiki as your source, but rather, stuff from the series itself. That's a very nice thing. :thumbup:
Let’s not forget Toriyama was already lacking sleep from the fucked up schedule of weekly manga, not to mention he did forget about SS3 so it wouldn’t surprise me if he was mixing the forms up when drawing them. The fact the hair style for Teen Gohan in SS and SS2 are hard to draw would mean there’s a likelihood Toriyama just drew the hair that specific way. But overall he is definitely a SS not a SS2. I don’t think there is a single panel where SS2 is drawn without lightning.

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Re: Gohan was a SSJ1 vs Dabura, in all likelihood

Post by Aim » Fri Apr 22, 2022 4:04 am

Lionel wrote: Thu Apr 21, 2022 9:58 pm Actually there are a number of panels where someone using SSJ2 lacks the trademark electricity though it's not on a consistent basis as seen with Gohan fighting Dabura. Now auras that don't have the intense fluctuating yellow outline in the coloured reprint of the manga yeah I don't think there's too many of those. These are the ones I've been able to find...
Dabura being comparable to SSJ2 probably has its best leg to stand on in the future timeline where he's seen fighting Trunks. The Saiyan was taking the demon king by surprise and battering him but Dabura still seemed to be hanging in there and was recovering from the attacks better than Cell. Go figure.
I just looked over the chapters, Vegeta not showing electricity is more so probably Toriyama saving time or forgetting to draw it. The Gohan vs Dabura chapters never have Gohan with electricity, whereas other characters only have a few panels from far away where the electricity isn’t drawn.

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Re: Gohan was a SSJ1 vs Dabura, in all likelihood

Post by Goku9001 » Fri Apr 22, 2022 4:05 am

The tricky part to all of this is not only does Super Saiyan Gohan never demonstrate sparks in his aura during his fight with Dabura as well as after it with the whole Buu debacle, but Gohan's aura is white in the colored manga whereas every instance of Super Saiyan 2 is drawn as a golden aura outside of a few outliers. Out of all of things that remained inconsistent, this artistic choice remained consistent. We even see this when SSJ2 Vegeta is surrounded by SSJ Goten and Trunks where the distinction between their auras is clear. Or, when Gohan encounters Buu while Goku and Vegeta are shown duking it out in the same chapter. Even if one would argue that Toriyama is completely exhausted and forgetful, there is no way he would commit such a grave error with Gohan whilst remaining consistent with the artstyle for both SSJ2 Goku and SSJ2 Vegeta. That seems incredibly unlikely.

Dabura was certainly written to be a Super Saiyan 2 level opponent initially but the artistic direction that Toriyama took seems to suggest that Gohan was a Super Saiyan rather than a Super Saiyan 2. One argument that could be had was that Gohan managed to use Super Saiyan 2 at the Budokai because he still internalized some of that rage against Videl and held a more intense mindset against Kibito than he did against Dabura.

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Re: Gohan was a SSJ1 vs Dabura, in all likelihood

Post by Aim » Fri Apr 22, 2022 4:08 am

theherodjl wrote: Fri Apr 22, 2022 12:53 am IMO, I think that it's just a case of Saiyans being able to draw out power from any & all transformations that they possess, it's just that they can't access the entirety of their power until they completely transform. Gohan could simply be a SSJ against Dabura but he could be channeling some additional power from his SSJ2, enough to at least remain on par with Dabura or "Cell's level". I mean, look at M10: Gohan took on SSJ Broly despite being in base form. Why else would he do that if he didn't have enough control over his Ki to boost himself in fighting someone who should be dozens of times stronger?
He didn’t take Broli on, he merely dodged a Broli that had been asleep for years yet did barely any damage, if any at all. I don’t think it works like that that they can just channel a bit of “SS2” power considering SS2 is literally a transformation in which you need to transform in order to access the multiplier.

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Re: Gohan was a SSJ1 vs Dabura, in all likelihood

Post by Mireya » Fri Apr 22, 2022 1:12 pm

Hugo Boss wrote: Fri Apr 22, 2022 12:17 am Though this usually becomes a heated debate, I think the implication that Gohan was just a SS there isn’t necessarily a mistake from Toriyama. Remember that Gohan was having trouble to get angry enough to use SS2 at will. He did it in front of Kibito probably because Videl’s beatdown was still pissing him off and on top of that his energy wasn’t completely restored by Kibito.

So why a rusty SS Gohan was hanging in there against an opponent that is easily sub-SS2 level? Dabra knew he had to fight the 3 Super Saiyans and Kaioshin, so he wouldn’t waste all his energy against one of them. He was using just the necessary power to keep Gohan at check, so that he could save some for the other ones. Luckily for him, Vegeta intended to fight Goku.
I think Toriyama did it intentionally and not by mistake or by forgetting, but I think it's a slip and strange writing nonetheless. Gohan was pissed at Videl being beat up, but nobody seems to act in his battle vs Dabura how he showed power moments ago that could end the battle rapidly. I think Kaioshin would make a mention or think on why Gohan doesn't look the same as he did in the Budokai. They all seem to act as that's the best Gohan could display -- well, technically if he couldn't get angry like in the Budokai, it is, but still that's strange --. Plus, Goku seems to urge in Gohan the same feelings he had when he battled Cell and didn't seem to mention just what he experienced at the Budokai... which should suffice to in the context of defeating Dabura. Gohan when comforting Dabura even makes mention of how angry he is, but not like back then (vs Cell)... completely glossing over what happened moments ago. Even Kaioshin doesn't seem to remember or point it out.

So I think there's clear some level of retcon going there. The characters still remember the events of the Budokai as Shin mentioned it, but the state Gohan used is never brought up... so the details surrounding the events are never mentioned because Toriyama thought SSj2 would be better reserved for Goku and Vegeta, imo.

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Re: Gohan was a SSJ1 vs Dabura, in all likelihood

Post by Thani » Sat Apr 23, 2022 12:23 pm

Mireya wrote: Fri Apr 22, 2022 1:12 pm
Hugo Boss wrote: Fri Apr 22, 2022 12:17 am Though this usually becomes a heated debate, I think the implication that Gohan was just a SS there isn’t necessarily a mistake from Toriyama. Remember that Gohan was having trouble to get angry enough to use SS2 at will. He did it in front of Kibito probably because Videl’s beatdown was still pissing him off and on top of that his energy wasn’t completely restored by Kibito.

So why a rusty SS Gohan was hanging in there against an opponent that is easily sub-SS2 level? Dabra knew he had to fight the 3 Super Saiyans and Kaioshin, so he wouldn’t waste all his energy against one of them. He was using just the necessary power to keep Gohan at check, so that he could save some for the other ones. Luckily for him, Vegeta intended to fight Goku.
I think Toriyama did it intentionally and not by mistake or by forgetting, but I think it's a slip and strange writing nonetheless. Gohan was pissed at Videl being beat up, but nobody seems to act in his battle vs Dabura how he showed power moments ago that could end the battle rapidly. I think Kaioshin would make a mention or think on why Gohan doesn't look the same as he did in the Budokai. They all seem to act as that's the best Gohan could display -- well, technically if he couldn't get angry like in the Budokai, it is, but still that's strange --. Plus, Goku seems to urge in Gohan the same feelings he had when he battled Cell and didn't seem to mention just what he experienced at the Budokai... which should suffice to in the context of defeating Dabura. Gohan when comforting Dabura even makes mention of how angry he is, but not like back then (vs Cell)... completely glossing over what happened moments ago. Even Kaioshin doesn't seem to remember or point it out.

So I think there's clear some level of retcon going there. The characters still remember the events of the Budokai as Shin mentioned it, but the state Gohan used is never brought up... so the details surrounding the events are never mentioned because Toriyama thought SSj2 would be better reserved for Goku and Vegeta, imo.
That's quite possible, since it's the only explanation as to why Gohan, as considerably weaker than he was in the Cell Games, could do so well against an opponent of Cell's level. Dabura should have demolished SS Gohan easier than Cell did because said SS Gohan is just a lot weaker than he used to be.

And we know Dabura wasn't holding back because he was getting frustrated that he couldn't take Gohan out, so he was exerting real effort - if he could just go full power and one-shot Gohan, judging by his growing frustration, I think he would.

Or that could just be an act and he was just milking the fight to get more energy out of Gohan? No idea, really.

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