Gohan was a SSJ1 vs Dabura, in all likelihood

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Re: Gohan was a SSJ1 vs Dabura, in all likelihood

Post by ZombieVito » Sat Apr 23, 2022 12:43 pm

Super manga pretty much confirms (More like reconfirms since Daizenshuu 7 already did decade ago) that Dabura is SS2 tier. Gohan needs to be a SS2 for him not to get beat.

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Re: Gohan was a SSJ1 vs Dabura, in all likelihood

Post by Mireya » Sat Apr 23, 2022 12:56 pm

Thani wrote: Sat Apr 23, 2022 12:23 pm
Mireya wrote: Fri Apr 22, 2022 1:12 pm
Hugo Boss wrote: Fri Apr 22, 2022 12:17 am Though this usually becomes a heated debate, I think the implication that Gohan was just a SS there isn’t necessarily a mistake from Toriyama. Remember that Gohan was having trouble to get angry enough to use SS2 at will. He did it in front of Kibito probably because Videl’s beatdown was still pissing him off and on top of that his energy wasn’t completely restored by Kibito.

So why a rusty SS Gohan was hanging in there against an opponent that is easily sub-SS2 level? Dabra knew he had to fight the 3 Super Saiyans and Kaioshin, so he wouldn’t waste all his energy against one of them. He was using just the necessary power to keep Gohan at check, so that he could save some for the other ones. Luckily for him, Vegeta intended to fight Goku.
I think Toriyama did it intentionally and not by mistake or by forgetting, but I think it's a slip and strange writing nonetheless. Gohan was pissed at Videl being beat up, but nobody seems to act in his battle vs Dabura how he showed power moments ago that could end the battle rapidly. I think Kaioshin would make a mention or think on why Gohan doesn't look the same as he did in the Budokai. They all seem to act as that's the best Gohan could display -- well, technically if he couldn't get angry like in the Budokai, it is, but still that's strange --. Plus, Goku seems to urge in Gohan the same feelings he had when he battled Cell and didn't seem to mention just what he experienced at the Budokai... which should suffice to in the context of defeating Dabura. Gohan when comforting Dabura even makes mention of how angry he is, but not like back then (vs Cell)... completely glossing over what happened moments ago. Even Kaioshin doesn't seem to remember or point it out.

So I think there's clear some level of retcon going there. The characters still remember the events of the Budokai as Shin mentioned it, but the state Gohan used is never brought up... so the details surrounding the events are never mentioned because Toriyama thought SSj2 would be better reserved for Goku and Vegeta, imo.
That's quite possible, since it's the only explanation as to why Gohan, as considerably weaker than he was in the Cell Games, could do so well against an opponent of Cell's level. Dabura should have demolished SS Gohan easier than Cell did because said SS Gohan is just a lot weaker than he used to be.

And we know Dabura wasn't holding back because he was getting frustrated that he couldn't take Gohan out, so he was exerting real effort - if he could just go full power and one-shot Gohan, judging by his growing frustration, I think he would.

Or that could just be an act and he was just milking the fight to get more energy out of Gohan? No idea, really.
I don't think he was holding back, either. He clearly used killing and KO techniques and attacks like the spit and the sword... Showing he had full intentions of taking Gohan as quickly as possible. The first exchange ends with Dabura getting kicked away and resorting to a breath blast and magic. He fires a big powerful blast after fooling Gohan with an illusion and doesn't cause much damage. Babidi is frustrated that Dabura isn't gathering enough damage, one would think that Babidi knowing Dabura's potential, he'd know he was just conserving energy. Goku also says Gohan isn't "totally losing the battle". It was clearly close to an extent. Dabura would still win, but it was clear he wasn't having an easy time against Gohan, and in fact some guidebook even points out Gohan had a power advantage. We can also see Dabura looks tired after Gohan broke his sword and I see 0 reason behind why he'd hold back the strength needed to slash Gohan in two when he finally got the opening for that... The fact Gohan could hold the sword still and break it, with Dabura clearly trying hard, is very telling. They're both close to each other.

Dabura saying he could take "trash" like Gohan later on is a little bold of a statement considering their proximity in strength, but I'd chalk that up to villain's arrogance. He could take Gohan, but just the fact that he could do it already prompted him to mock the kid and brandish his superiority in a perceived cool way, from what I see.

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Re: Gohan was a SSJ1 vs Dabura, in all likelihood

Post by Aim » Sun Apr 24, 2022 5:40 am

I just don’t see how Toriyama could make the mistake as someone pointed out of not noting the SS2 form with electricity. All I can think of is that Gohan might not be able to last long enough in SS2.

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Re: Gohan was a SSJ1 vs Dabura, in all likelihood

Post by Desassina » Sun Apr 24, 2022 5:57 am

Indeed, he could have started in SS2 form and dialed it down to Super Saiyan at full power, but this is such a Schrodinger's Cat type of situation that I had rather say that Gohan fought transformed. He also used more power while in that form than he had shown Kibito at the tournament because Shin had to tell him. Perhaps because fighters display more power by fighting than by standing and Gohan fired a blast against Majin Boo's cocoon that was supposed to be his best in that moment. This is why I prefer a similar deal to SSB being the power of SSG in Super Saiyan form, that of Gohan using SS2SS because he did not use Super Saiyan to boost SS2, but included its power in a lower form :wink: . Vegeto is also suspect about this: how come he transforms with sparks but is then seen without them in his aura (the moment being when he used his sword)? Also, Goku Black had Super Saiyan hair with sparks, but that is on Toyotaro (and Toriyama's illustration of Goku off story).

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Re: Gohan was a SSJ1 vs Dabura, in all likelihood

Post by Aim » Sun Apr 24, 2022 6:10 am

Desassina wrote: Sun Apr 24, 2022 5:57 am Indeed, he could have started in SS2 form and dialed it down to Super Saiyan at full power, but this is such a Schrodinger's Cat type of situation that I had rather say that Gohan fought transformed. He also used more power while in that form than he had shown Kibito at the tournament because Shin had to tell him. Perhaps because fighters display more power by fighting than by standing and Gohan fired a blast against Majin Boo's cocoon that was supposed to be his best in that moment. This is why I prefer a similar deal to SSB being the power of SSG in Super Saiyan form, that of Gohan using SS2SS because he did not use Super Saiyan to boost SS2, but included its power in a lower form :wink: . Vegeto is also suspect about this: how come he transforms with sparks but is then seen without them in his aura (the moment being when he used his sword)? Also, Goku Black had Super Saiyan hair with sparks, but that is on Toyotaro (and Toriyama's illustration of Goku off story).
We’ve seen characters have lightning at the start though before, not having it throughout the battle is unlike Toriyama, unless while drawing it he had no idea whether it was SS or SS2. As for Goku Black, Toyotaro just adds things in for the sake of it, I wouldn’t overthink that one.

I’m trying to analyse the manga, right now its very hard to tell, but I do think possibly Toriyama did intend for it to be SS and not 2. Just judging by certain frames, though sometimes it’s hard to tell. I think he may have possibly mixed up Gohan’s SS and SS2 hair.

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Re: Gohan was a SSJ1 vs Dabura, in all likelihood

Post by Seekeroftruth » Sun Apr 24, 2022 10:28 am

Many fans think gohan got weaker in Buu arc due to vegeta and goku comparing him to his powers in Cell arc after he unleashed his hidden potential. Thing is that Gohan in the buu arc is not using his hidden potential against foes like Dabura (who are considered perfect cell level) and yet is still holding his own. Thus, we can conclude gohan has in fact gotten stronger in the buu arc.

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Re: Gohan was a SSJ1 vs Dabura, in all likelihood

Post by Aim » Sun Apr 24, 2022 11:47 pm

Seekeroftruth wrote: Sun Apr 24, 2022 10:28 am Many fans think gohan got weaker in Buu arc due to vegeta and goku comparing him to his powers in Cell arc after he unleashed his hidden potential. Thing is that Gohan in the buu arc is not using his hidden potential against foes like Dabura (who are considered perfect cell level) and yet is still holding his own. Thus, we can conclude gohan has in fact gotten stronger in the buu arc.
Yeah I don’t buy that he’d gotten too weak during that time. I think more so stamina probably was the issue, and connecting things to real life it’s true that you gain back skill and strength far quicker if you had already trained before. So it makes sense here as well.

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Re: Gohan was a SSJ1 vs Dabura, in all likelihood

Post by Goku9001 » Mon Apr 25, 2022 2:05 am

The narrative makes it quite clear that Gohan's power had diminished from lack of training. Vegeta claims that Gohan is pathetic against Dabura and Goku affirms that statement by confirming that Gohan really did slack off on his training. There's nothing complicated about what is being said here.

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Re: Gohan was a SSJ1 vs Dabura, in all likelihood

Post by Aim » Tue Apr 26, 2022 6:00 am

I remember there being a post about the hair specifically, can’t remember where it is but it outlined Gohan’s hair and it made some pretty strong arguments for him being in SS1.

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Re: Gohan was a SSJ1 vs Dabura, in all likelihood

Post by Goku9001 » Tue Apr 26, 2022 6:33 am

ZombieVito wrote: Sat Apr 23, 2022 12:43 pm Super manga pretty much confirms (More like reconfirms since Daizenshuu 7 already did decade ago) that Dabura is SS2 tier. Gohan needs to be a SS2 for him not to get beat.
Does it? Couldn't Future Dabura be stronger than Present Dabura?

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Re: Gohan was a SSJ1 vs Dabura, in all likelihood

Post by Koitsukai » Tue Apr 26, 2022 9:55 am

Goku9001 wrote: Tue Apr 26, 2022 6:33 am
ZombieVito wrote: Sat Apr 23, 2022 12:43 pm Super manga pretty much confirms (More like reconfirms since Daizenshuu 7 already did decade ago) that Dabura is SS2 tier. Gohan needs to be a SS2 for him not to get beat.
Does it? Couldn't Future Dabura be stronger than Present Dabura?
Not likely, it wasn't stated or implied, and with the precedent of the future androids, he should be weaker in that case. But... SS Trunks, like Gohan, was also holding his own vs Dabura, and when he turned SS2, Dabura was outclassed and lasted like two pages. I think, similar to what would've happened if Gohan used his FP (be it SS2 or the FP of SS2 -if he was a half-ass SS2)

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Re: Gohan was a SSJ1 vs Dabura, in all likelihood

Post by TobyS » Tue Apr 26, 2022 10:53 am

Goku9001 wrote: Tue Apr 26, 2022 6:33 am
ZombieVito wrote: Sat Apr 23, 2022 12:43 pm Super manga pretty much confirms (More like reconfirms since Daizenshuu 7 already did decade ago) that Dabura is SS2 tier. Gohan needs to be a SS2 for him not to get beat.
Does it? Couldn't Future Dabura be stronger than Present Dabura?
Dabra has been in Babidis employ for over 1000 years, so that's a really weird growth rate to suddenly spike like that, or he started out so weak it doesn't make sense for babidi to posses him. Also his performance against Shin was consistent with what we know from the buu saga.

If he got any stronger he would have one shot Shin more conclusively imo
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Re: Gohan was a SSJ1 vs Dabura, in all likelihood

Post by ZombieVito » Tue Apr 26, 2022 12:36 pm

Koitsukai wrote: Tue Apr 26, 2022 9:55 am
Goku9001 wrote: Tue Apr 26, 2022 6:33 am
ZombieVito wrote: Sat Apr 23, 2022 12:43 pm Super manga pretty much confirms (More like reconfirms since Daizenshuu 7 already did decade ago) that Dabura is SS2 tier. Gohan needs to be a SS2 for him not to get beat.
Does it? Couldn't Future Dabura be stronger than Present Dabura?
Not likely, it wasn't stated or implied, and with the precedent of the future androids, he should be weaker in that case. But... SS Trunks, like Gohan, was also holding his own vs Dabura, and when he turned SS2, Dabura was outclassed and lasted like two pages. I think, similar to what would've happened if Gohan used his FP (be it SS2 or the FP of SS2 -if he was a half-ass SS2)
Well he lasted that much because Shin paralyzed him. He didn't seem hurt by SS2 that much.

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Re: Gohan was a SSJ1 vs Dabura, in all likelihood

Post by Koitsukai » Tue Apr 26, 2022 12:41 pm

ZombieVito wrote: Tue Apr 26, 2022 12:36 pm
Koitsukai wrote: Tue Apr 26, 2022 9:55 am
Goku9001 wrote: Tue Apr 26, 2022 6:33 am

Does it? Couldn't Future Dabura be stronger than Present Dabura?
Not likely, it wasn't stated or implied, and with the precedent of the future androids, he should be weaker in that case. But... SS Trunks, like Gohan, was also holding his own vs Dabura, and when he turned SS2, Dabura was outclassed and lasted like two pages. I think, similar to what would've happened if Gohan used his FP (be it SS2 or the FP of SS2 -if he was a half-ass SS2)
Well he lasted that much because Shin paralyzed him. He didn't seem hurt by SS2 that much.
He still did nothing against SS2 Trunks before that.

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Re: Gohan was a SSJ1 vs Dabura, in all likelihood

Post by Grimlock » Tue Apr 26, 2022 1:19 pm

Goku9001 wrote: Tue Apr 26, 2022 6:33 amDoes it? Couldn't Future Dabura be stronger than Present Dabura?
For what is worth:

Image

Here's the Japanese version:

I should probably point out two things:

1 - This takes place at some point after AGE 788 and before AGE 795, which means Dabura might have got stronger in the meantime considering the gap is at least fifteen years in relation to the present timeline.

2 - No comparison is made in the manga, so this could be an addition for the game or they had access to information Toyotaro elected to not put in the manga, who knows.
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Re: Gohan was a SSJ1 vs Dabura, in all likelihood

Post by Thani » Tue Apr 26, 2022 1:40 pm

Koitsukai wrote: Tue Apr 26, 2022 9:55 am
Goku9001 wrote: Tue Apr 26, 2022 6:33 am
ZombieVito wrote: Sat Apr 23, 2022 12:43 pm Super manga pretty much confirms (More like reconfirms since Daizenshuu 7 already did decade ago) that Dabura is SS2 tier. Gohan needs to be a SS2 for him not to get beat.
Does it? Couldn't Future Dabura be stronger than Present Dabura?
Not likely, it wasn't stated or implied, and with the precedent of the future androids, he should be weaker in that case. But... SS Trunks, like Gohan, was also holding his own vs Dabura, and when he turned SS2, Dabura was outclassed and lasted like two pages. I think, similar to what would've happened if Gohan used his FP (be it SS2 or the FP of SS2 -if he was a half-ass SS2)
To be fair, that's about as well as Cell would be expected to perform against a SS2, so it checks out.

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Re: Gohan was a SSJ1 vs Dabura, in all likelihood

Post by ZombieVito » Tue Apr 26, 2022 1:58 pm

Koitsukai wrote: Tue Apr 26, 2022 12:41 pm
ZombieVito wrote: Tue Apr 26, 2022 12:36 pm
Koitsukai wrote: Tue Apr 26, 2022 9:55 am

Not likely, it wasn't stated or implied, and with the precedent of the future androids, he should be weaker in that case. But... SS Trunks, like Gohan, was also holding his own vs Dabura, and when he turned SS2, Dabura was outclassed and lasted like two pages. I think, similar to what would've happened if Gohan used his FP (be it SS2 or the FP of SS2 -if he was a half-ass SS2)
Well he lasted that much because Shin paralyzed him. He didn't seem hurt by SS2 that much.
He still did nothing against SS2 Trunks before that.
He still wasn't one shotted.

Just look how Dabura is after Trunks attacks and look how Cell was after just 2 punches from SS2 Gohan.

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Re: Gohan was a SSJ1 vs Dabura, in all likelihood

Post by Aim » Tue Apr 26, 2022 9:07 pm

TobyS wrote: Tue Apr 26, 2022 10:53 am
Goku9001 wrote: Tue Apr 26, 2022 6:33 am
ZombieVito wrote: Sat Apr 23, 2022 12:43 pm Super manga pretty much confirms (More like reconfirms since Daizenshuu 7 already did decade ago) that Dabura is SS2 tier. Gohan needs to be a SS2 for him not to get beat.
Does it? Couldn't Future Dabura be stronger than Present Dabura?
Dabra has been in Babidis employ for over 1000 years, so that's a really weird growth rate to suddenly spike like that, or he started out so weak it doesn't make sense for babidi to posses him. Also his performance against Shin was consistent with what we know from the buu saga.

If he got any stronger he would have one shot Shin more conclusively imo
Could be butterfly effect

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Re: Gohan was a SSJ1 vs Dabura, in all likelihood

Post by Goku9001 » Wed Apr 27, 2022 1:49 am

Koitsukai wrote: Tue Apr 26, 2022 9:55 am Not likely, it wasn't stated or implied, and with the precedent of the future androids, he should be weaker in that case. But... SS Trunks, like Gohan, was also holding his own vs Dabura, and when he turned SS2, Dabura was outclassed and lasted like two pages. I think, similar to what would've happened if Gohan used his FP (be it SS2 or the FP of SS2 -if he was a half-ass SS2)
I would say it's very likely, especially if a Super Saiyan Trunks after training with the Z Sword is incapable of beating Future Dabura despite Present Dabura struggling against Rusty Super Saiyan Gohan. That's something that can be inferred as we are told that parallel universes have their own variations.

Or it's an inconsistency and Toyotaro was just dumb.

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Re: Gohan was a SSJ1 vs Dabura, in all likelihood

Post by Thani » Wed Apr 27, 2022 7:44 am

Goku9001 wrote: Wed Apr 27, 2022 1:49 am
Koitsukai wrote: Tue Apr 26, 2022 9:55 am Not likely, it wasn't stated or implied, and with the precedent of the future androids, he should be weaker in that case. But... SS Trunks, like Gohan, was also holding his own vs Dabura, and when he turned SS2, Dabura was outclassed and lasted like two pages. I think, similar to what would've happened if Gohan used his FP (be it SS2 or the FP of SS2 -if he was a half-ass SS2)
I would say it's very likely, especially if a Super Saiyan Trunks after training with the Z Sword is incapable of beating Future Dabura despite Present Dabura struggling against Rusty Super Saiyan Gohan. That's something that can be inferred as we are told that parallel universes have their own variations.

Or it's an inconsistency and Toyotaro was just dumb.
To be fair, I've just reread the Dabra fight against Gohan. While the fight was seen as back and forth, the only one getting tired and damaged was Gohan.

Which, again, checks out with Dabra being regarded as on the level of Cell and the idea that Gohan was only using Super Saiyan.

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