Does the Dragon wish need the person's permission

Discussion, generally of an in-universe nature, regarding any aspect of the franchise (including movies, spin-offs, etc.) such as: techniques, character relationships, internal back-history, its universe, and more.

Moderators: General Help, Kanzenshuu Staff

Mireya
Banned Alternate Account
Posts: 325
Joined: Wed Jan 22, 2020 6:08 pm

Does the Dragon wish need the person's permission

Post by Mireya » Wed Apr 27, 2022 4:43 pm

After the Freeza Saga, Shenlong stated that Goku wasn't brought back because he refused... and the same thing is applied in Super when Bardock refuses the Mutaito's Dragon wish... but in the Freeza Saga, Vegeta and co. were brought to Earth without being checked first. And Goku made a point to alter the wish for him to stay fighting with Freeza, implying he'd have gone to Earth otherwise.

So do you think it's kind of a slip in the writing?

User avatar
Shorty GZ2
Beyond Newbie
Posts: 287
Joined: Sat Apr 23, 2022 12:22 pm
Location: Parts Unknown

Re: Does the Dragon wish need the person's permission

Post by Shorty GZ2 » Fri Apr 29, 2022 3:32 am

I'm guessing they all implicitly agreed in that case

User avatar
SupremeKai25
I Live Here
Posts: 4043
Joined: Wed Nov 22, 2017 9:40 am

Re: Does the Dragon wish need the person's permission

Post by SupremeKai25 » Fri Apr 29, 2022 6:05 am

No.

I doubt Goku wanted to have his body get taken over by Zamasu, for example.

User avatar
Hugo Boss
I Live Here
Posts: 4622
Joined: Thu Jun 13, 2013 3:04 pm
Location: Brazil

Re: Does the Dragon wish need the person's permission

Post by Hugo Boss » Fri Apr 29, 2022 7:03 am

SupremeKai25 wrote: Fri Apr 29, 2022 6:05 am No.

I doubt Goku wanted to have his body get taken over by Zamasu, for example.
But that wish was granted by Super Shenron, who apparently is off-limits.

User avatar
SupremeKai25
I Live Here
Posts: 4043
Joined: Wed Nov 22, 2017 9:40 am

Re: Does the Dragon wish need the person's permission

Post by SupremeKai25 » Fri Apr 29, 2022 7:28 am

Hugo Boss wrote: Fri Apr 29, 2022 7:03 am
SupremeKai25 wrote: Fri Apr 29, 2022 6:05 am No.

I doubt Goku wanted to have his body get taken over by Zamasu, for example.
But that wish was granted by Super Shenron, who apparently is off-limits.
The normal Dragon also sent Broly back to Planet Vampa at the end of the Broly movie, without asking for his consent.

In the end, the Dragons are divine beings, they do their purpose and shouldn't care about what the affected mortals think. It's not their business, they're there just to grant wishes.

User avatar
Hugo Boss
I Live Here
Posts: 4622
Joined: Thu Jun 13, 2013 3:04 pm
Location: Brazil

Re: Does the Dragon wish need the person's permission

Post by Hugo Boss » Fri Apr 29, 2022 9:20 am

SupremeKai25 wrote: Fri Apr 29, 2022 7:28 am
Hugo Boss wrote: Fri Apr 29, 2022 7:03 am
SupremeKai25 wrote: Fri Apr 29, 2022 6:05 am No.

I doubt Goku wanted to have his body get taken over by Zamasu, for example.
But that wish was granted by Super Shenron, who apparently is off-limits.
The normal Dragon also sent Broly back to Planet Vampa at the end of the Broly movie, without asking for his consent.

In the end, the Dragons are divine beings, they do their purpose and shouldn't care about what the affected mortals think. It's not their business, they're there just to grant wishes.
I’m not disputing that, but since your original post didn’t address any example other than Super Dragon Balls, I thought it was worth to point out. :)

User avatar
Koitsukai
I Live Here
Posts: 4265
Joined: Tue Feb 06, 2018 5:02 pm

Re: Does the Dragon wish need the person's permission

Post by Koitsukai » Fri Apr 29, 2022 11:04 am

Apparently, yes.

It's weird that the namekians would've agreed to leave their homeplanet, but maybe Saichoro told them about the wish, so they understood what was going on. Odd things were happening already, they were killed, resurrected, Namek was going down, and Porunga was there, summoned by somebody.
Porunga might've spoken to their hearts, explained what was going on, and they accepted.

Kinda difficult to explain what happened with Vegeta and Gohan. Gohan was trying to get off Namek, so maybe Porunga "read" his heart and knew he was already on board even if he didn't know about the wish.
Vegeta is the issue, I don't see him just going to Earth, but he might've seen the planet crumbling down, noticed the huge power levels around and gone: welp... a free ride. I don't see Porunga asking Vegeta for permission and Geets giving it. Maybe, deep down, he was willing to GTFO and no resistance was put on, so he wasn't even asked to leave.

Perhaps it's more about the determination of the guy in question. Bardock was dead set on fighting Gas, he wasn't going nowhere; Goku was the same on Yadrat. Requiring some kind of consultation before wishing them off planet when the person has their mind set on actively not going anywhere. With this logic, even if Goku didn't hijack the chat between Kami and Kaio, Porunga wouldn't have been able to send him to Earth if he didn't want to.

About Broly, I have no question in my mind that he was crying on the inside and he clinged onto the voice that offered salvation. Or Shenron didn't even need to ask him anything after knowing how scared he was.

TL;DR: I think the dragon asks permission only if they notice that the person might not be fully on board with it. If there's no strong feeling one way or the other, there might not even be a conversation between them. Don't know, it's clearly something that wasn't thought through.

Mireya
Banned Alternate Account
Posts: 325
Joined: Wed Jan 22, 2020 6:08 pm

Re: Does the Dragon wish need the person's permission

Post by Mireya » Fri Apr 29, 2022 4:39 pm

Very in depth and good answer!

User avatar
Saiya6Cit
Beyond-the-Beyond Newbie
Posts: 346
Joined: Thu Sep 09, 2021 10:53 am
Location: MEXICO
Contact:

Re: Does the Dragon wish need the person's permission

Post by Saiya6Cit » Tue May 24, 2022 1:40 pm

Hey this is a very interesting topic and one I had not pondered upon previously.

Sorry to arrive late but here are my two cents:

I don't think Sheng Long needs the permission from the person to be resurrected.
Vegeta seemed very suprised when he was revived on Earth after Namek, so it makes me think no one ever told him "hey pack your ethereal stuff you are being wished back to life!" it just happened.

I think in the case of Goku and, since he had already a good relationship with King Kai, his soul was never again considered as any other mortal. Goku started being above humans since he started to train with Kami. King Enma Daio-sama also took special consideration with Vegeta's soul whe he killed himself in MajinBuu saga becasue he knew he was "related" to Goku.

It makes perfect sense to me to think that superior beings (gods) would take special considerations with special people. Proof of what I am saying would also be end of GT.

User avatar
Hulk10
Advanced Regular
Posts: 1440
Joined: Tue Mar 28, 2017 11:55 pm
Location: New Sadala

Re: Does the Dragon wish need the person's permission

Post by Hulk10 » Mon Jul 04, 2022 12:33 pm

Koitsukai wrote: Fri Apr 29, 2022 11:04 am Apparently, yes.

It's weird that the namekians would've agreed to leave their homeplanet, but maybe Saichoro told them about the wish, so they understood what was going on. Odd things were happening already, they were killed, resurrected, Namek was going down, and Porunga was there, summoned by somebody.
Porunga might've spoken to their hearts, explained what was going on, and they accepted.

Kinda difficult to explain what happened with Vegeta and Gohan. Gohan was trying to get off Namek, so maybe Porunga "read" his heart and knew he was already on board even if he didn't know about the wish.
Vegeta is the issue, I don't see him just going to Earth, but he might've seen the planet crumbling down, noticed the huge power levels around and gone: welp... a free ride. I don't see Porunga asking Vegeta for permission and Geets giving it. Maybe, deep down, he was willing to GTFO and no resistance was put on, so he wasn't even asked to leave.

Perhaps it's more about the determination of the guy in question. Bardock was dead set on fighting Gas, he wasn't going nowhere; Goku was the same on Yadrat. Requiring some kind of consultation before wishing them off planet when the person has their mind set on actively not going anywhere. With this logic, even if Goku didn't hijack the chat between Kami and Kaio, Porunga wouldn't have been able to send him to Earth if he didn't want to.

About Broly, I have no question in my mind that he was crying on the inside and he clinged onto the voice that offered salvation. Or Shenron didn't even need to ask him anything after knowing how scared he was.

TL;DR: I think the dragon asks permission only if they notice that the person might not be fully on board with it. If there's no strong feeling one way or the other, there might not even be a conversation between them. Don't know, it's clearly something that wasn't thought through.
Methinks you are right.
"We became like friends, we became like good friends." Broly to Cheelai and Lemo about his fur pelt.

Anonymous Friend
I'm, pretty, cozy, here...
Posts: 1555
Joined: Sun Sep 03, 2006 12:10 am
Location: Earth-1218
Contact:

Re: Does the Dragon wish need the person's permission

Post by Anonymous Friend » Thu Jul 07, 2022 5:09 pm

No.

My reasoning is that in every instance, barring the one exception, the dragons just does their thing. In the case of someone being brought back from the dead, the dead don't recount how they were asked if they wanted to come back. When being teleported elsewhere, Piccolo doesn't seem like he was asked.
18 also doesn't seem to be asked if she wants herslef changed by Krillin's wish.

Goku on yardat is the only instance of someone seemingly knowing a wish was made for then and rejectying it.
Playstation Network ID/Xbox Gamer Tag: AnonymousFriend
Wii FriendCode: 1003 3740 6652 4063

User avatar
TobyS
I Live Here
Posts: 2441
Joined: Sun Jun 20, 2010 12:11 pm

Re: Does the Dragon wish need the person's permission

Post by TobyS » Fri Jul 08, 2022 5:44 am

Yeah I think he needs consent to harm or move someone stronger then him but not to help or heal

I think you could remove and enemies clothes or the bomb in them as it's not part of them, maybe even remove a weapon from their hand if it's not a ki construct perhaps.

He couldn't even stop and enemy stronger than him from moving, he could probably encase them in a thick dome or energy field but it'd be the product of Kami/dendes power so it wouldn't hold for long.
Yamcha almost certainly did not cheat on Bulma:
He was afraid of Women, Bulma was the flirty one.
Yamcha wanted to get married (it was his gonna be his wish)
He suggested they settle down in the Trunks saga.
Alternate future Trunks is not a reliable source.
Toriyama wanted new SSJ Kids and not make new characters.

User avatar
Peach
OMG CRAZY REGEN
Posts: 882
Joined: Mon Feb 03, 2020 8:57 am

Re: Does the Dragon wish need the person's permission

Post by Peach » Sat Jul 09, 2022 2:14 pm

Yes.

It seems the only stipulation is if the person would die unless they were transported. Like Broly...

User avatar
Ashur
Beyond Newbie
Posts: 138
Joined: Wed Mar 02, 2022 6:48 am

Re: Does the Dragon wish need the person's permission

Post by Ashur » Wed Jul 20, 2022 7:14 am

Most of the time it doesn't, it's just a plot inconsistency that Goku is able to deny Porunga, after all there's nothing that indicates Vegeta and everyone else that was on Namek agreed to be transported, Vegeta for example didin't even realize, so it doesn't make sense unless Goku can accurately guess when they are going to wish for him to be transported and is able to put on a Ki barrier or something in time, which is nearly impossible and seems to be too much to go out of his way to avoid being on Earth, when it's not framed like that in the series.

I think this might have been something Toriyama used to hype up Goku's new state as a warrior of legend, as in, he was no longer bound by dragon wishes, he could say no, but we know this idea, if it exists at all, got dropped really quickly.

User avatar
TobyS
I Live Here
Posts: 2441
Joined: Sun Jun 20, 2010 12:11 pm

Re: Does the Dragon wish need the person's permission

Post by TobyS » Sat Jul 23, 2022 7:55 am

Ashur wrote: Wed Jul 20, 2022 7:14 am Most of the time it doesn't, it's just a plot inconsistency that Goku is able to deny Porunga, after all there's nothing that indicates Vegeta and everyone else that was on Namek agreed to be transported, Vegeta for example didin't even realize, so it doesn't make sense unless Goku can accurately guess when they are going to wish for him to be transported and is able to put on a Ki barrier or something in time, which is nearly impossible and seems to be too much to go out of his way to avoid being on Earth, when it's not framed like that in the series.

I think this might have been something Toriyama used to hype up Goku's new state as a warrior of legend, as in, he was no longer bound by dragon wishes, he could say no, but we know this idea, if it exists at all, got dropped really quickly.
The last thing Vegeta knew was he got killed by Freeza, wasn't the legendary super saiyan and the dragonballs were gone. He has zero reason to resist the teleportation.

I don't think it needs your proactive consent so much as your active resistance perhaps. But either way if Porunga was like "hey want a ride outta here" Vegeta would have been like "yeah sure"
Yamcha almost certainly did not cheat on Bulma:
He was afraid of Women, Bulma was the flirty one.
Yamcha wanted to get married (it was his gonna be his wish)
He suggested they settle down in the Trunks saga.
Alternate future Trunks is not a reliable source.
Toriyama wanted new SSJ Kids and not make new characters.

User avatar
GreatSaiyaman123
I'm, pretty, cozy, here...
Posts: 1713
Joined: Mon Oct 17, 2016 11:59 am
Location: Somewhere beyond the sea

Re: Does the Dragon wish need the person's permission

Post by GreatSaiyaman123 » Sat Jul 23, 2022 3:10 pm

Goku always shows telepathic abilities out of nowhere, specially in this saga when he reads Kuririn’s mind and intercepted a talk between gods (Kaio and Guru). Doesn’t surprise me he could talk to Polunga too.

As for Bardock, Toronbo just seems like a nicer dragon than the others. He politely explains to Granolah how he could get his wish while Shenlong and Polunga are more literal and straightforward. They just do whatever you say and go home.
Battle Powers List (Manga)

Guardian of the city, I am the one and only...Great Saiyaman!

User avatar
Ashur
Beyond Newbie
Posts: 138
Joined: Wed Mar 02, 2022 6:48 am

Re: Does the Dragon wish need the person's permission

Post by Ashur » Sun Jul 24, 2022 1:22 pm

TobyS wrote: Sat Jul 23, 2022 7:55 am
Ashur wrote: Wed Jul 20, 2022 7:14 am Most of the time it doesn't, it's just a plot inconsistency that Goku is able to deny Porunga, after all there's nothing that indicates Vegeta and everyone else that was on Namek agreed to be transported, Vegeta for example didin't even realize, so it doesn't make sense unless Goku can accurately guess when they are going to wish for him to be transported and is able to put on a Ki barrier or something in time, which is nearly impossible and seems to be too much to go out of his way to avoid being on Earth, when it's not framed like that in the series.

I think this might have been something Toriyama used to hype up Goku's new state as a warrior of legend, as in, he was no longer bound by dragon wishes, he could say no, but we know this idea, if it exists at all, got dropped really quickly.
The last thing Vegeta knew was he got killed by Freeza, wasn't the legendary super saiyan and the dragonballs were gone. He has zero reason to resist the teleportation.

I don't think it needs your proactive consent so much as your active resistance perhaps. But either way if Porunga was like "hey want a ride outta here" Vegeta would have been like "yeah sure"
But he has no reason to teleport away from Namek either, he doesn't know Namek is about to explode and the last thing he was thinking was seeing Frieza dead, and he certainly didin't realize he was being transported the moment it happened, he was just walking around Namek (probably searching for Frieza or processing what had happened) so we know for sure Porunga didin't ask him or anybody else, Bulma doesn't know either until she sees she's on earth again.

If the active resistance thing were true, and we assume one must be stronger than the Grand Elder (Porunga's creator) to resist it, it still would be illogical for Goku to be able to resist it because he would have to magically know when they were wishing him back, on top of the fact that he asked Kaioh and the Grand Elder for not to be transported back in the Frieza fight, if he was actually capable of resisting it or refusing all along, he wouldn't be so insistent on leaving him out of the wish, if the reasoning for that is that he didin't think it was possible to resist even tho it was, then why would he randomly decide it was possible later on?

Post Reply