Does Goku really need to be in base for the Genki-dama?

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Desassina
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Does Goku really need to be in base for the Genki-dama?

Post by Desassina » Thu May 05, 2022 6:03 am

Or was he simply on his limits when he used it in the manga? The purity argument is a bit suspect when Cell should be able to use it as well. Fast forward to Vegeta post-Yardrat training and he's able to take people's energy in blue form despite not having an attack for it.

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Re: Does Goku really need to be in base for the Genki-dama?

Post by Koitsukai » Thu May 05, 2022 10:24 am

IIRC, it has been stated to be that way, right? not the purity requirement, but that as a SS he cannot use it due to the nature of the form. Although, I don't remember the manga stating it, but the anime :think:

We don't know much about technique, but in that case, I guess since a SS isn't as calm as a base or SSB character, he is not able to get the energy from living beings as easily (or maybe not at all) due to the rageful nature of the energy-gatherer. Maybe plants just won't lend their genki if the guys asking for it is a raging maniac. I mean, Goku had to learn how to do it, so it's not as simple as just getting it from other beings. Vs Buu, humans were able to resist it, Goku wasn't just taking it from them and not because he wasn't willing to.
According to my headcanon, there needs to be some type of connection or link between the gatherer and the energy source, and non-sentient beings might not respond as well to an angry heart.

Cell knows the technique and lacks the SS form aka an anger-fueled state. I think that's what makes it possible for him, he doesn't have an angry heart by default like a SS, he is awful but isn't necessarily filled with rage or emotion-driven. Following this logic, MSS Goku from the Cell Games should be able to use the Genki Dama, if he indeed no longer uses his emotions to activate and maintain SS.

Spirit Fission, however, is a different technique, it does not depend on the willingness of the energy source. Also, SSB might be calmer than SS, it is in the anime, don't know about the manga. But CSSB is all about ki control, and the evolution of that shouldn't lose that trait.

Funnily enough, Goku reverted to base from SSB when creating the ToP genki dama in the anime. He also created one as a SS in one Z movie.

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Re: Does Goku really need to be in base for the Genki-dama?

Post by Desassina » Thu May 05, 2022 5:20 pm

Great post! I agree that if he's calm and collected, then he can gather energy and focus it on a single point, otherwise let it slip and fade away. Purity played a role in allowing the attack to be repelled by Gohan who did not control it too. I guess that we could split the Genki-dama's functioning in three stages:
  1. The gathering of energy by whom people trust or give their consent to, which includes being manipulated into it by choice, or akin to Moro's ability to suck the energy of non sentient beings.
  2. The attack's formation, which requires mastery and knowledge by whom the energy is being sent to, when it could have been sent elsewhere like Vegeta did to revive people whose energy was stolen.
  3. The intent behind the attack relative to the role that its user plays in the story, because Cell does not want to be the target of his own Genki-dama, but launch it upon the pure of heart who could probably repel it otherwise.

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Re: Does Goku really need to be in base for the Genki-dama?

Post by Koitsukai » Thu May 05, 2022 6:20 pm

Oh, yeah, the third one is a good explanation to why Cell never attempted to use it.

On a related note, Herms translated something written by Rikao Yanagita, author of the Fantasy Science Reade book series, where they
tried to scientifically explain how the Genki Dama worked on Buu.
While I seriously doubt Kid Buu weighed 100KG or that he is made of the same stuff that we are, it's a fan read.

https://twitter.com/Herms98/status/1521 ... ntifica%2F

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Re: Does Goku really need to be in base for the Genki-dama?

Post by Lionel » Fri May 06, 2022 10:20 pm

Yeah the nature of Super Saiyan and its intrinsic connection to the aggressive emotions of Saiyans sounds like it would have a compatibility issue for a technique like the Spirit Bomb if that's even a thing. Would be interesting to know if Goku in his Ultra Instinct state can use the Spirit Bomb. You wouldn't be considered pure in the positive moral sense but functionally autonomous with emotions not dictating the manner in which you handle yourself.

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Re: Does Goku really need to be in base for the Genki-dama?

Post by Cold Skin » Fri Jun 03, 2022 2:56 pm

To keep it simple, it was never stated anywhere in the manga. For all we know, Goku simply had his base form out of circumstances.
It was invented for the anime, through movies (notably DBZ movie 7) and the staff kept it true for Super, once again stating clearly that a Super Saiyan wouldn't be able to use it.

So, there's no clear statement of that in the manga world, and it's clearly stated in the anime world (and even re-confirmed recently).

Some features of the attack still remain a bit shrouded in mystery. The fact that Gohan was able to send it back is stated to be because "this energy is on our side, someone that has no vice is able to bounce it back": the second part of the sentence might be linked to the first part about the side, "it's on the side of the user, which is the side of good in this case, so someone good can deviate it too". If energy had been gathered with bad intents, would it be the contrary? With someone inhabited by vice being able to send it back while someone pure-hearted wouldn't be able to because it's not in line with the ball's intended objective?

Having no vice as a requirement is weird since Cell is pretty confident about being able to do it, but it's also possible he simply knows the technical aspect of gathering energy from a whole world thanks to the spy robot, not thinking of the fact that people and living entities have to be willing to give it... or do they?
Because we have examples of people having their energy taken from them by a Genki Dama from Goku without being aware of it, looking surprised that they feel something coming out of them or that their energy is going somewhere. So the "fight with Boo" version with people needing to raise their hands and willingly share doesn't always seem to apply.

And if bad guys or a whole bad population were willing to share energy, wouldn't it work? Just because they're not pure of heart and have angry pulsions, they wouldn't be able to willingly gather energy from everyone into a massive ball? Is there some kind of a pure, calm heart necessary to gather energy in one single ball?
Although using powerful magic for it, Moro has shown that you can take a whole world and population's energy without consent and with clear bad intentions, you just manipulate it to come to you. It seems very similar to the Genki Dama, including in appearance and color. It's really an evil Genki Dama and it works.

When it comes to having a calm heart, Goku and Gohan have learned to be calm even as Super Saiyans and have no anger in them in that state anymore after their training for the Cell Game. So it's also an oddity when it comes to "no Super Saiyan allowed because no angry feeling allowed".

But then we have the Elder Kaio Shin stating that the Super Saiyan form is an "impure state", as if hybrid, not natural. Could it be the requirement then? It wouldn't be about anger or bad intents, but about being your pure, simplest self for it to work, having no alterations that could act as an extra barrier or something?

All of this to say, there would be MANY unclear aspects to consider.
But in essence, from what we is clearly stated or not so far:
- no mention or example at all that the base form is required in the manga.
- clear statement in the anime - even re-confirmed recently - that base form is necessary.
Last edited by Cold Skin on Fri Jun 03, 2022 3:02 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Does Goku really need to be in base for the Genki-dama?

Post by Lukmendes » Wed Jun 29, 2022 1:01 am

Goku solved the emotional stress over going SS back in Cell saga after training with Gohan in ROSAT, logically, he should be able to use while transformed.

Super decided to say that he has to be in base form to use it most likely because of the Android 13 movie (Both times even have Krillin be the one who says it), but again, I see no reason why that has to be the case anymore, same goes for SSG and Blue, which never did mess with him emotionally.
jjgp1112 wrote: Sat Mar 12, 2022 12:08 am My man, all Goku had to do was go SSJ3 and shock Vegeta so much the M on his head would have turned into an L and Buu would have never happened.

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