SSj Grade 4 power - old and new arguments

Discussion, generally of an in-universe nature, regarding any aspect of the franchise (including movies, spin-offs, etc.) such as: techniques, character relationships, internal back-history, its universe, and more.

Moderators: General Help, Kanzenshuu Staff

User avatar
Saturnine
I'm, pretty, cozy, here...
Posts: 1515
Joined: Mon Jan 25, 2016 8:45 am

SSj Grade 4 power - old and new arguments

Post by Saturnine » Sat Jun 04, 2022 2:19 pm

This has been discussed quite a bit, but not to derail another thread, I decided to make this one here to present my opinions on the matter of Grade 4 being stronger than Grade 1. I've discovered some new hints for it being the case in the meantime, so here they are.
Grimlock wrote: Fri Jun 03, 2022 9:53 pm If I were to guess, I think Super Saiyan Grade 2 multiplier is x75, making it a perfect "Super Saiyan 1.5". I also assume Super Saiyan Grade 3 to be even stronger than Super Saiyan 2, by having a multiplier above x100. I think that's a nice trade-off since, as we know, its speed/muscle mass is a major hindrance. Cell says Trunks is stronger than him (and Piccolo also says Trunks is stronger than Cell, for what is worth).
You're leaving out the obvious fact that they were comparing Trunks to Cell's power level at the time, not his absolute full power. Cell made two significant powerups afterwards, each of which revealing a new level of power that no one was previously aware of. You can be forgiven for overlooking it, seeing as how since the dawn of transformations people have all but forgotten that powerlevels can be modified without transforming as well. One such example is Freeza's power-up while in his second form that took him from "over a million" to somewhat more than that, which could be anywhere from 1,2-1,4 million. It's almost universally overlooked in most power level listings.

It's very low-key in the manga, but happens mostly on this page:
Image
and is commented on on this one:
Image
The anime instead presents a full powering-up sequence with floating rocks and whatnot. In any case - after this, Freeza gains a clear advantage over Piccolo, at least until the latter removes his weighted clothing.

The same thing, but much clearer and less subtle, happens with Cell after the initial phase of his fight against Goku. Since nothing hints otherwise and no one makes any statements to the contrary, we can assume Perfect Cell was using the same "standby" powerlevel that he used earlier against both Grade 2 Vegeta and Grade 3 Trunks.

We also know from Goku's demonstration at Karin's that his own standby power must be considerably less than half of his full power, as half is what he worked up to in his prolonged demonstration to Karin before he had to stop:
Image

He then appears to return to his standby powerlevel, since he uses "was" relating to his previously elevated level of power.

And then when the Cell Games begin, Goku starts out at this very same standby level, and is evenly matched with Cell:
Image

What does that show us? That Goku at less than half, probably closer to a third (or fourth, if you're generous) of his full power already does a better job against the same version of Perfect Cell that Vegeta and Trunks had fought than both Grade 2 Vegeta (who was plain weaker) and Grade 3 Trunks (who was stronger but slower). That means a 1/3x or less power Super Saiyan Goku after a single visit to the RoSaT that lasted less than a full year would already beat Grade 2 Vegeta and Grade 3 Trunks low-diff.

Most people like to assume that Goku's superior full strength is solely attributable to Goku's greater talent and the fact that he had a sparring partner, since training with a partner is more efficient than solo. And these two factors definitely do contribute, and hugely - but they're already sufficiently illustrated by the fact that after 10,5 months of training Goku's already better in a basic form than Trunks and Vegeta were in elevated forms after 12 months of training. That means Goku's superior training methods and talent have overcome even whatever extra multipliers Grade 2 and Grade 3 provided Vegeta and Trunks, and that's only at a fraction of his full power - and it's even further cemented by the fact that Goku and Vegeta were very close to each other in power before beginning the RoSaT training, with Vegeta even arguably being slightly superior. Many others theorize that once Grade 4 is reached, either the speed of power gains from training accelerates, or the base power gets dragged up to keep the multiplier at 50, but these honestly just sound like a cope to avoid even considering that Grade 4 might allow a higher multiplier).

It's therefore not unreasonable to think that this standby level of Goku's power is what he would have had as an unmastered Super Saiyan. It's his "base Super Saiyan" level. Of course this one is just my own assumption, but I feel it makes a lot of sense. So:

Ssj Goku = Perfect Cell -> Grade 3 Trunks (in speed only, somewhat inferior in power) > Grade 2 Vegeta. Which, if you assume Grade 3's multiplier to be 2x over regular Super Saiyan, means that Goku's training was around twice as efficient as Vegeta and Trunks' - and that only widens if you think the multiplier is higher. I used to give Grade 2 a 2x boost and Grade 3 a further 2x boost (4x Super Saiyan).

But then the power-up comes in.

Both Goku and Cell power-up, with Goku powering up to his max, and Cell to a matching, but slightly superior level that makes the fight relatively comfortable, yet still challenging for him - a level that at the time is once again considered to be Cell's full power, as per Karin's earlier estimate that "Cell's probably a bit stronger than Goku", which turns out to be quite accurate.

Vegeta at this point once again feels utterly defeated and humiliated, since he assesses Goku's power to still be superior to his own, even after his 2nd visit to the RoSaT. But you need to notice that while Vegeta trained alone even the second time (again diminishing his effectiveness), he did acknowledge the superiority of Goku's direction with the Super Saiyan form and attempted to replicate it. This is proven by Vegeta and Trunks not transforming to 2nd Grade during the Cell Games in the manga - just like Goku - even though there were no apparent reasons against doing so:
Image
There are several such shots in the manga of Trunks and Vegeta who are shown with the same kind of aura that Goku has after powering up to the maximum, along with comparatively lean muscles that don't imply Grade 2.

Still, Vegeta and Trunks were able to go toe to toe with the Cell Juniors, meaning they must at least have come somewhat close to Goku's full power this time - perhaps around 70-80%.

So if we assume that Goku's full power was 3x that of his standby power, that would make him at least 4,5x stronger than Grade 2 Vegeta was in the latter's fight against Cell (assuming Cell/standby Goku were 1,5x stronger than Super Vegeta, completely sufficient to hand him the defeat he was handed). If you want Grade 2's multiplier to be 1,5x that of regular SSj, that would mean full power SSj Goku was 6,75x stronger than SSj Vegeta after one visit to the RoSaT for both (for a 2x multiplier for Grade 2, that would be 9x) - but having Goku at standby be 2,25x Super Saiyan Vegeta (3x if Grade 2 is 2x SSj). A difference of 2,25x-3x could be explained by more efficient training and innate talent, but one of 6,75x-9x couldn't - it's simply too much, the transformation itself has to account for part of the difference.

Vegeta after his 2nd visit in the RoSaT came from being at around 22% of Goku's full power at Grade 2 to 70 or 80% at "regular" Super Saiyan - that's not an inconsiderable jump either - even though his training methods remained inefficient due to him training alone and not having proper rests.

That all leads me to conclude that Grade 4 must allow powering up to at the very least the Grade 2 multiplier without strain or changes to the body. Not to mention that no one ever used Grade 2 at or after the Cell Games, even though there were no practical reasons not to do so. In fact, it could have provided the much-needed momentary boost for both Vegeta and Trunks to instantly overcome the Cell Juniors - even if it's just a 1,5x multiplier, the Juniors would have been killed in a few moments. Yet I continue to hear excuses such as that Grade 2 was simply shunned because of how much stamina it drains. Once again - stamina is of absolutely no consequence if you can finish your opponent off in two seconds. Goku could have transformed to Grade 2 as well and flat-out kill Cell without having to place his bets on Gohan (at least assuming Cell was displaying his true power, which Goku didn't yet know he wasn't) - yet he didn't, while also mentioning that he was going all out against Cell. That, once again heavily hints that Grade 4 must incorporate the multiplier of Grade 2 at the very least.
As for Super Saiyan Full Power/Super Saiyan Grade 4, there's nothing "underselling" it, it's just another case of people misinterpreting stuff. Its purpose was to get rid of all drawbacks, to make Super Saiyan easier to maintain for longer periods and whatnot. All of this is reiterated throughout the following chapters by characters making comments after Goku and Gohan left the chamber. It was never supposed to provide a bigger increase in power (i.e. to have a bigger multiplier) over the regular Super Saiyan, this is a misconception based on nothing.
As nothing even hints to that.
It's definitely not "based on nothing", and plenty things in fact do hint to that, as I have just enumerated. These things are just a bit more subtle than the usual direct verbatim statements that tend to be required to satisfy people. Here's a TL;DR list:

- Grade 4 allows you to power up while in Super Saiyan - previously there was only a single level of power afforded by the form, with no hints of being able to take it higher. The first ways shown of doing that were in fact Grade 2 and Grade 3. You could argue that it's only suppression, and not powering up beyond previous limits - but the fact remains that Goku in a relaxed state was already 2-3x stronger than SSj Vegeta after a year of RoSaT - just the amount that could be explained by his more efficient training. He could still take his power 3x higher, which suggests that the power-up possible while at Grade 4 is indeed incremental/limit breaking.

- Grade 4's aura while powering up to the maximum is drawn in the manga in a very similar fashion to Grade 2's standby aura. It then settles to a calmer SSj-like aura. It is a hint that power beyond that of the regular Super Saiyan is being accessed.

- Goku's extreme difference in power compared to Vegeta after both had a single visit to the RoSaT cannot be explained only by Goku being smarter at training and having a sparring partner in Gohan. That definitely covers part of the difference, but not all of it - it's just too huge. The transformation itself has to play a role as well. Goku would already have beaten Grade 2 Vegeta and Grade 3 Trunks post 1st RoSaT at only his standby powerlevel which was considerably less than half his full power.

- No one used Grade 2 again, even though it should be possible if Grade 4 was just regular Super Saiyan, and would have provided immediate and tangible benefits in all the scenarios (Goku destroying Cell; Trunks and Vegeta destroying Cell Juniors). Explanations given as to why Grade 2 was not used are usually weak and unconvincing as its potential advantages far outweigh any stamina or efficiency concerns. The only sensible explanation is that there are no advantages at all, because Grade 4 already offers that power, only with no drawbacks.

So all in all, I feel there is quite a lot that hints that Grade 4 is in fact the full mastery of the 1st Super Saiyan level, and that includes Grade 2 and Grade 3. So no, Grade 3 is not stronger than SSj2, in fact it's not even close - given that SSj2's multiplier (whatever we agree it is) builds off Grade 4's powerlevel - and that's already at the very least beyond Grade 2 and possibly on par with Grade 3. In simplest terms, since Goku's standby powerlevel was probably around 1/3 of his full power, it could be a 3x multiplier over an untrained Super Saiyan - meaning that to align, you could put Grade 2 at 1,5x and Grade 3 at 3x (twice that of Grade 2). Now of course you don't have to agree with it, but you can at least acknowledge that there is quite a bit of stuff in the manga that would lead one to believe so - definitely not nothing.

SSj2 Gohan (definitely more than 32000) > Perfect Cell, full power (anywhere from 12000 to 24000) > Perfect Cell, "true speed" (8000) > Grade 4 Gohan at 100% (7500) > Perfect Cell, powered up (7000) > Grade 4 Goku at 100% (6750) > Grade 4 Vegeta/Trunks at 100% = Cell Juniors (5400) > Grade 4 Goku at 50% (3375) > Grade 3 Trunks (2700, speed of 1800) > SSj Goku = Perfect Cell at standby (2250) > Grade 2 Vegeta (1500) => Grade 2 Trunks (1425) > Semi-Perfect Cell (1100-1300) > SSj Vegeta (1000) => SSj Trunks (950)

User avatar
Yuji
Advanced Regular
Posts: 1107
Joined: Tue Dec 01, 2020 6:20 pm

Re: SSj Grade 4 power - old and new arguments

Post by Yuji » Sat Jun 04, 2022 3:36 pm

I've always interpreted Grade 4 as concentrating the power of Grade 3 into Grade 1. So, Grade 4 would have the same multiple as Grade 3, whether you believe that's x75 or x100, and then SS2 stacks x2 on top of it. The guidebooks having SS2 and SS3 as x2 and x4 their previous forms seem to imply the SS multiple can vary, and modern material in Super also corroborates this theory with base Vegeta and base Cabba being equals but Vegeta being clearly superior in their Super Saiyan forms because he has mastered the form. We also see Trunks mastering Super Saiyan 2 and matching Super Saiyan 3 in power because of it.

User avatar
Grimlock
Kicks it Old-School
Posts: 8240
Joined: Sun Jan 24, 2016 4:11 pm
Location: Cybertron.

Re: SSj Grade 4 power - old and new arguments

Post by Grimlock » Sat Jun 04, 2022 7:57 pm

Saturnine wrote: Sat Jun 04, 2022 2:19 pmYou're leaving out the obvious fact that they were comparing Trunks to Cell's power level at the time, not his absolute full power. Cell made two significant powerups afterwards, each of which revealing a new level of power that no one was previously aware of. You can be forgiven for overlooking it, seeing as how since the dawn of transformations people have all but forgotten that powerlevels can be modified without transforming as well. One such example is Freeza's power-up while in his second form that took him from "over a million" to somewhat more than that, which could be anywhere from 1,2-1,4 million. It's almost universally overlooked in most power level listings.
You're right. I don't know why I mentioned Cell, it is irrelevant to my assumption. I just thought that, by having that comparison spoken out loud, my assumption that Super Saiyan Grade 3's multiplier to be above x100 would be more believable, but I don't really need those statements.
Saturnine wrote: Sat Jun 04, 2022 2:19 pm- Grade 4 allows you to power up while in Super Saiyan - previously there was only a single level of power afforded by the form, with no hints of being able to take it higher.
Huh... I'm pretty sure Vegeta and Trunks attained Super Saiyan Grade 2 and 3 without having Super Saiyan Full Power. Let us remember that the latter form was Goku's idea and everyone would only learn about it after Goku left the chamber. That means Super Saiyan also allows one to power up.

In other words, Super Saiyan Full Power is not a requirement to achieve Super Saiyan Grade 2 and Super Saiyan Grade 3, if that's what you're implying.
Saturnine wrote: Sat Jun 04, 2022 2:19 pm- Grade 4's aura while powering up to the maximum is drawn in the manga in a very similar fashion to Grade 2's standby aura. It then settles to a calmer SSj-like aura. It is a hint that power beyond that of the regular Super Saiyan is being accessed.
I honestly don't see any difference in these auras but I'll take your word for it. But we can't never forget that sometimes stuff are drawn in a way only for aesthetic purposes, Super Saiyan has displayed a lightning aura, after all.
Saturnine wrote: Sat Jun 04, 2022 2:19 pm- No one used Grade 2 again, even though it should be possible if Grade 4 was just regular Super Saiyan, and would have provided immediate and tangible benefits in all the scenarios (Goku destroying Cell; Trunks and Vegeta destroying Cell Juniors). Explanations given as to why Grade 2 was not used are usually weak and unconvincing as its potential advantages far outweigh any stamina or efficiency concerns. The only sensible explanation is that there are no advantages at all, because Grade 4 already offers that power, only with no drawbacks.
No one uses Super Saiyan 2, even after all its benefits with minor drawbacks. Super Saiyan 2 should have been the standard form, but they barely use it (and "barely" thanks to Toei!). So that's not really an argument.
Goodbye friend. You are weak, so you must be destroyed!

~ War of the Dinobots ~

User avatar
Saturnine
I'm, pretty, cozy, here...
Posts: 1515
Joined: Mon Jan 25, 2016 8:45 am

Re: SSj Grade 4 power - old and new arguments

Post by Saturnine » Sun Jun 05, 2022 8:17 am

Grimlock wrote: Sat Jun 04, 2022 7:57 pm Huh... I'm pretty sure Vegeta and Trunks attained Super Saiyan Grade 2 and 3 without having Super Saiyan Full Power. Let us remember that the latter form was Goku's idea and everyone would only learn about it after Goku left the chamber. That means Super Saiyan also allows one to power up.

In other words, Super Saiyan Full Power is not a requirement to achieve Super Saiyan Grade 2 and Super Saiyan Grade 3, if that's what you're implying.
No no, what I meant is that a basic, untrained Super Saiyan can't really power up or down, they're stuck at 50x base at all times (well, until they lose their ki from injury/exhaustion of course). The first occurrence of us seeing a Super Saiyan power up was when Grade 2 was already attained - with Super Vegeta against Semi-Perfect Cell. But it resulted in enlarged muscles and all the good stuff we know and love - the thing is, it looked very much like Vegeta just raising his ki forcibly and seeing how much of it his body could take. The very same thing happens when Goku powers up for Karin and later for Cell at the tournament - he raises his ki, only without any physical changes to himself.

So no, it's in fact the opposite of what you thought I was trying to say - Grade 4 is not required to attain Grade 2 (nor is the opposite true for that matter) - but I look at it as the same kind of situation as with 100% Freeza. He had to get all buff and energy incontinent when he powered up to 100%, but then after his training for RoF he became capable of powering up to 100% without getting buff at all. But theoretically, there could be a scenario where he trained first, before ever powering up to 100% in his imperfect way - precisely how Gohan never needed to actually use Grade 2 or 3 to acclimate his body to Super Saiyan and unlock FPSSj.

Ofc then came Super which complicated things again and made it look like "100%" was a special state that Freeza could access anyway, but the writers there seem to have an obsession with keeping as many forms alive as possible, possibly for merchandising reasons. Bleh
I honestly don't see any difference in these auras but I'll take your word for it. But we can't never forget that sometimes stuff are drawn in a way only for aesthetic purposes, Super Saiyan has displayed a lightning aura, after all.
True. But those sequences were drawn very close to each other chronologically, and you can see regular Super Saiyans and Grade 2's within single chapters, so the difference is rather visible and appears fully intentional. Can never be sure of course, but it does look consistent there.
No one uses Super Saiyan 2, even after all its benefits with minor drawbacks. Super Saiyan 2 should have been the standard form, but they barely use it (and "barely" thanks to Toei!). So that's not really an argument.
It's not that bad actually! I mean they don't use it all the time maybe, but they do use it quite a lot! In the original manga it sees constant use right until the end, particularly since it's Vegeta's highest form, so he has to use it for instance against Kid Buu simply not to die. In Super, it saw regular use in most arcs: Beerus, Zamasu, ToP. It was Goku's standby form for a lot of the fights during the ToP, in fact I think he used it more than his first Super Saiyan form. I agree it's not used anywhere near as much as it should be due to how good it is, but it did get quite a bit of representation and is nowhere near forgotten. Super definitely did it more justice than GT did, at the very least!

But another curious thing is that Super treated Grade 3 the same as Freeza's buff 100% form - it can be used even if you've mastered Super Saiyan just to provide a simple tradeoff of strength for speed - shown by both Caulifla and Trunks, who had mastered Super Saiyan - working pretty much exactly like Cell's power-weighted form which he could use at any time. So the way I see it, once you unlock FPSSj your body can tolerate the same power that Grade 3 would otherwise have given you as a powerup from regular Super Saiyan, but you can still, regardless pump up your muscles forcibly to trade off speed for strength. Which of course will do you absolutely no good against as much as an evenly matched opponent, because you were only as fast as them in the first place, and now you're making yourself slower.

User avatar
Grimlock
Kicks it Old-School
Posts: 8240
Joined: Sun Jan 24, 2016 4:11 pm
Location: Cybertron.

Re: SSj Grade 4 power - old and new arguments

Post by Grimlock » Sun Jun 05, 2022 3:35 pm

Saturnine wrote: Sun Jun 05, 2022 8:17 amNo no, what I meant is that a basic, untrained Super Saiyan can't really power up or down, they're stuck at 50x base at all times (well, until they lose their ki from injury/exhaustion of course). The first occurrence of us seeing a Super Saiyan power up was when Grade 2 was already attained - with Super Vegeta against Semi-Perfect Cell. But it resulted in enlarged muscles and all the good stuff we know and love - the thing is, it looked very much like Vegeta just raising his ki forcibly and seeing how much of it his body could take. The very same thing happens when Goku powers up for Karin and later for Cell at the tournament - he raises his ki, only without any physical changes to himself.
I think messing with the multipliers as we know them can only bring unnecessary headaches. I kind of agree that when they transform into Super Saiyan, as they can't control its power they are stuck with a x50 multiplier and that Super Saiyan Full Power allows you to control it and to power it down, but not to power up beyond x50.

Messing with Super Saiyan's multiplier means you'd have to mess with Super Saiyan 2's and Super Saiyan 3's multipliers as well. As these forms must be above Super Saiyan, otherwise they lose their point in existing completely. And messing with all these forms' multipliers means we'd lose any direction, any basis, we would have nothing to go by and our understanding of them would be lost.

An unnecessary mess I prefer to avoid. Let us leave things the way they are.
Saturnine wrote: Sun Jun 05, 2022 8:17 amISo the way I see it, once you unlock FPSSj your body can tolerate the same power that Grade 3 would otherwise have given you as a powerup from regular Super Saiyan, but you can still, regardless pump up your muscles forcibly to trade off speed for strength. Which of course will do you absolutely no good against as much as an evenly matched opponent, because you were only as fast as them in the first place, and now you're making yourself slower.
That'd only be a thing if it were possible to absorb the power of Super Saiyan Grade 3 and use it while transformed into Super Saiyan Full Power. We don't know if a power from any form (other than Super Saiyan God's) can be absorbed and used in another form. Again, after reading the whole thing, the only thing I understand is that the mastery of Super Saiyan is to get rid of all drawbacks, bearing no relation to the Grade forms.

You're inferring something I never even heard of before. I see you have your arguments well solidified and if all of this makes sense to you, then by all means, stick to that. But I honestly can't subscribe to this idea at all.
Goodbye friend. You are weak, so you must be destroyed!

~ War of the Dinobots ~

User avatar
Saturnine
I'm, pretty, cozy, here...
Posts: 1515
Joined: Mon Jan 25, 2016 8:45 am

Re: SSj Grade 4 power - old and new arguments

Post by Saturnine » Sun Jun 05, 2022 4:51 pm

Grimlock wrote: Sun Jun 05, 2022 3:35 pm I think messing with the multipliers as we know them can only bring unnecessary headaches. I kind of agree that when they transform into Super Saiyan, as they can't control its power they are stuck with a x50 multiplier and that Super Saiyan Full Power allows you to control it and to power it down, but not to power up beyond x50.

Messing with Super Saiyan's multiplier means you'd have to mess with Super Saiyan 2's and Super Saiyan 3's multipliers as well. As these forms must be above Super Saiyan, otherwise they lose their point in existing completely. And messing with all these forms' multipliers means we'd lose any direction, any basis, we would have nothing to go by and our understanding of them would be lost.

An unnecessary mess I prefer to avoid. Let us leave things the way they are.
That's not a problem at all. SSj2 still builds on top of whatever the power at FPSSj is. You can't really be a SSj2 if you haven't mastered Super Saiyan. It's all but stated to be a requirement - SSj2 and SSj3 multipliers are therefore intact. I would personally take more issue with them stating SSj2 to only be a 2x multiplier, as that's awfully low and directly contradicted by Gohan, who was able to still defeat Super Perfect Cell despite losing half his ki after taking that blow to protect Vegeta. If SSj2 were only 2x, that would bring him back to his FPSSj powerlevel. For that reason most people think Cell Games Gohan was an exception anyway.

User avatar
Yuji
Advanced Regular
Posts: 1107
Joined: Tue Dec 01, 2020 6:20 pm

Re: SSj Grade 4 power - old and new arguments

Post by Yuji » Sun Jun 05, 2022 6:42 pm

Gohan was probably exceptionally powerful due to being enraged, Cell was distracted, and the 50% figure said in the heat of the moment may not be an accurate self-assessment.

User avatar
Grimlock
Kicks it Old-School
Posts: 8240
Joined: Sun Jan 24, 2016 4:11 pm
Location: Cybertron.

Re: SSj Grade 4 power - old and new arguments

Post by Grimlock » Sun Jun 05, 2022 10:13 pm

Saturnine wrote: Sun Jun 05, 2022 4:51 pmYou can't really be a SSj2 if you haven't mastered Super Saiyan.
Cabba and Caulifla may have something to say about that.
Saturnine wrote: Sun Jun 05, 2022 4:51 pmI would personally take more issue with them stating SSj2 to only be a 2x multiplier
That's already the case. "x100" is its multiplier in relation to base form. Whenever they transform from base to Super Saiyan 2, they are a hundred times stronger. When they transform from Super Saiyan to Super Saiyan 2, they are twice as strong, i.e. "x2" in relation to the previous transformation (50 x 2 = 100). I don't know where your issue comes from, this is crystal clear.
Saturnine wrote: Sun Jun 05, 2022 4:51 pmthat's awfully low and directly contradicted by Gohan, who was able to still defeat Super Perfect Cell despite losing half his ki after taking that blow to protect Vegeta. If SSj2 were only 2x, that would bring him back to his FPSSj powerlevel.
You are ignoring some other factors that Yuji already pointed out. As well as Goku being there to help however he can.
Goodbye friend. You are weak, so you must be destroyed!

~ War of the Dinobots ~

User avatar
Goku9001
Regular
Posts: 596
Joined: Sun Oct 15, 2017 7:37 pm

Re: SSj Grade 4 power - old and new arguments

Post by Goku9001 » Mon Jun 06, 2022 3:40 am

The manga doesn't really make any distinction between Super Saiyan Grade 1 and Grade 4. Vegeta and Piccolo explicitly refers to it as Super Saiyan with the only distinction being the calm and natural feeling they exhibited due to having full control over their power. Trunks believing that Goku and Gohan would undergo an even greater transformation also leads to that belief. The original intention behind their training was to obtain power greater than what Super Saiyan could naturally provide. Trunks' assumption that Goku and Gohan would need to transform to extract more power directly suggests that this objective wasn't met and that the power of the form was the same as it would be using Grade 1.

Grade 2, Grade 3, Super Saiyan 2 and 3 alike are all referred to as forms that go beyond Super Saiyan. Grade 4 is never given that explanation. In fact, the Battle of Gods promotional material clarifies that Super Saiyan as it was used in the movie multiplies the user's battle power by 50, for people who care about the 50x SSJ multiplier that is.

User avatar
p-hyvo
OMG CRAZY REGEN
Posts: 951
Joined: Wed Jul 12, 2017 10:56 am
Location: Italy
Contact:

Re: SSj Grade 4 power - old and new arguments

Post by p-hyvo » Tue Jun 07, 2022 1:28 am

I find all of this a prime example of overthinking things.
Goku himself days that to us the regular ssj is more convenient, and his training focuses on using it removing the stamina issues.

Therefore, grade4 is just a x50 multiplier over base like regular ssj
This speaks volumes on how stronger base Goku got in his rosat training, and he was>grade 3 Trunks too tbh.

Also , Vegeta and trunks at the cell games never had used ssj grades, they always were regular ssjs, and they only were stronger than 50% pre cell games Goku. I find it a bit too much to put them around 80% of cell games ssj Goku

User avatar
GreatSaiyaman123
I'm, pretty, cozy, here...
Posts: 1717
Joined: Mon Oct 17, 2016 11:59 am
Location: Somewhere beyond the sea

Re: SSj Grade 4 power - old and new arguments

Post by GreatSaiyaman123 » Fri Jun 10, 2022 4:51 pm

Well Trunks does use 3rd Grade SSJ on top of MSSJ in Super, and both Caulifla and Cabba unlock SSJ2 as normal SSJ1s.
Battle Powers List (Manga)

Guardian of the city, I am the one and only...Great Saiyaman!

User avatar
Grimlock
Kicks it Old-School
Posts: 8240
Joined: Sun Jan 24, 2016 4:11 pm
Location: Cybertron.

Re: SSj Grade 4 power - old and new arguments

Post by Grimlock » Fri Jun 10, 2022 5:25 pm

He doesn't, he simply transforms from Super Saiyan into Super Saiyan Grade 3. There is no such thing as "on top of" when it comes to the Super Saiyan transformations (except when they are combined with techniques, obviously).
Goodbye friend. You are weak, so you must be destroyed!

~ War of the Dinobots ~

User avatar
Koitsukai
I Live Here
Posts: 4276
Joined: Tue Feb 06, 2018 5:02 pm

Re: SSj Grade 4 power - old and new arguments

Post by Koitsukai » Fri Jun 10, 2022 6:12 pm

I always assumed MSS was the regular SS with the power of Grade 2 without needing to bulk up. Perhaps when Goku powered up vs Cell, getting a more serious look and an aura, that was like the Grade 2 of MSS. That is more power without any strain on the body, so the best of both worlds.

Grade 3 is off limits because of its drawbacks, so while they can do it, why do it when it sucks?

User avatar
GreatSaiyaman123
I'm, pretty, cozy, here...
Posts: 1717
Joined: Mon Oct 17, 2016 11:59 am
Location: Somewhere beyond the sea

Re: SSj Grade 4 power - old and new arguments

Post by GreatSaiyaman123 » Sat Jun 11, 2022 7:20 pm

Grimlock wrote: Fri Jun 10, 2022 5:25 pm He doesn't, he simply transforms from Super Saiyan into Super Saiyan Grade 3. There is no such thing as "on top of" when it comes to the Super Saiyan transformations (except when they are combined with techniques, obviously).
The Grade forms are literally just buffing up as a Super Saiyan, something Cell considers a rather simple technique. They could do it in any form.
Battle Powers List (Manga)

Guardian of the city, I am the one and only...Great Saiyaman!

User avatar
Goku9001
Regular
Posts: 596
Joined: Sun Oct 15, 2017 7:37 pm

Re: SSj Grade 4 power - old and new arguments

Post by Goku9001 » Sun Jun 12, 2022 1:39 am

Super Saiyan Grade 2 and Grade 3 are classified as separate transformations. The reason why Cell equates it to just "bulking up" is because that's essentially the end result. Trunks put all of this effort just to get crap results.

User avatar
Grimlock
Kicks it Old-School
Posts: 8240
Joined: Sun Jan 24, 2016 4:11 pm
Location: Cybertron.

Re: SSj Grade 4 power - old and new arguments

Post by Grimlock » Sun Jun 12, 2022 12:22 pm

GreatSaiyaman123 wrote: Sat Jun 11, 2022 7:20 pmThe Grade forms are literally just buffing up as a Super Saiyan, something Cell considers a rather simple technique. They could do it in any form.
Yes, and by "buffing up" they are undergoing another transformation, with their own multipliers and everything, thus setting them apart from the regular Super Saiyan. Cell can do it because he can transform into Super Saiyan in all of his forms.
Goodbye friend. You are weak, so you must be destroyed!

~ War of the Dinobots ~

User avatar
Kaboom
Moderator
Posts: 14373
Joined: Mon Jan 09, 2006 6:07 pm
Location: Funky Town
Contact:

Re: SSj Grade 4 power - old and new arguments

Post by Kaboom » Mon Jun 13, 2022 1:21 am

I think that a Mastered/Grade-4 Super Saiyan does have the ability to tap into the "beyond Super Saiyan" power reserves of Grades 2 and 3, although with much better control and efficiency.

It's called "Super Saiyan 2."
deviantART
FanFic: DragonBall GT Revised
[thread]
Powar Levuls: Main Series | Movies and Specials | GT
Nintendo/PSN/Steam: KaboomKrusader
ACNH Dream Address: DA-1637-4046-7415 ("SlamZone")
(Not) lost (enough) DB Super plots!
A handy video guide to Kanzenshuu-level grammar quality!

User avatar
Grimlock
Kicks it Old-School
Posts: 8240
Joined: Sun Jan 24, 2016 4:11 pm
Location: Cybertron.

Re: SSj Grade 4 power - old and new arguments

Post by Grimlock » Mon Jun 13, 2022 1:41 am

I don't. That would essentially make Super Saiyan Full Power no longer having a multiplier of x50, thus screwing up everything we know and love.

I do, however, kind of agree with what you said in the other thread, albeit from a video game perspective only:

In Dragon Quest 8, the Hero "can transform into Super Saiyan" and there is an ability called "oomph" to make attacks even stronger. That's exactly what you described in the other thread, and so it kinda makes sense. But again, from a game perspective, I don't think that's possible in the series, unless someone else provides that "oomph".
Goodbye friend. You are weak, so you must be destroyed!

~ War of the Dinobots ~

User avatar
Kaboom
Moderator
Posts: 14373
Joined: Mon Jan 09, 2006 6:07 pm
Location: Funky Town
Contact:

Re: SSj Grade 4 power - old and new arguments

Post by Kaboom » Mon Jun 13, 2022 2:15 am

Grimlock wrote: Mon Jun 13, 2022 1:41 amI don't. That would essentially make Super Saiyan Full Power no longer having a multiplier of x50, thus screwing up everything we know and love.
I agree, and I think you should re-examine my exact wording and the half-joke, half-serious point I was trying to make. :wink:
deviantART
FanFic: DragonBall GT Revised
[thread]
Powar Levuls: Main Series | Movies and Specials | GT
Nintendo/PSN/Steam: KaboomKrusader
ACNH Dream Address: DA-1637-4046-7415 ("SlamZone")
(Not) lost (enough) DB Super plots!
A handy video guide to Kanzenshuu-level grammar quality!

User avatar
Saturnine
I'm, pretty, cozy, here...
Posts: 1515
Joined: Mon Jan 25, 2016 8:45 am

Re: SSj Grade 4 power - old and new arguments

Post by Saturnine » Fri Jul 01, 2022 3:04 am

The biggest problem with you guys thinking that FPSSj is still only 50x and Grade 2 and 3 multipliers can still be applied to it is that SSj2 wouldn't be anything special with just a 2x multi if that was the case. Gohan's showing during the Cell Games was, on the other hand, very special to put it mildly. I know everyone is trying to explain it with a "rage boost" these days, just so the 2x figure from the SEG is preserved, but I'll remind you that pretty much no one gave Gohan only a 2x boost before the SEG came out, meaning that if you only rely on deduction and not any external sources, 2x is not a figure you'll naturally arrive at. 2x for SSj2 is just not very convincing and it probably wasn't thought out too well by the authors of the SEG. I think it was just an arbitrary figure, myself.

And again, if Goku could have used Grade 2 and if SSj2 is only 2x, then all the hype for Gohan was just poor writing, since Goku could have finished the job himself. FPSSj clearly incorporates at the very least Grade 2 power, you just need to want to see it. I'm not saying you should be like SethTheProgrammer with his exaggerated multipliers and incorporating real-world physics into his analyses (being smart enough to do that, but not smart enough to realize you shouldn't do that), but the fact alone that Goku was able to power up at Super Saiyan speaks volumes. And that he never used Grade 2 even though it would have given him an undisputable advantage. This is the exact same type of situation as Ultimate Gohan not going Super Saiyan on top of his Potential Unleashed state - which many people think he could do (well, probably not so much after Super Hero). But him not doing it in a situation where every bit of extra power would help, proves that he couldn't - and the same is true for Goku and Grade 2.

Post Reply