SSj Grade 4 power - old and new arguments

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Re: SSj Grade 4 power - old and new arguments

Post by theherodjl » Fri Jul 01, 2022 3:43 am

I wonder, are there even any in-universe instances of someone describing SSJ as being a 50-fold boost or close to it anywhere in the series??? Because the only time in which that was more-or-less the case was Goku vs Frieza back in the Namek arc. All other fights, especially after it's discovered that there are levels beyond ordinary SSJ, puts SSJ up in the air in of how much it boosts any individual Saiyan.
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Re: SSj Grade 4 power - old and new arguments

Post by Koitsukai » Fri Jul 01, 2022 9:05 am

theherodjl wrote: Fri Jul 01, 2022 3:43 am I wonder, are there even any in-universe instances of someone describing SSJ as being a 50-fold boost or close to it anywhere in the series??? Because the only time in which that was more-or-less the case was Goku vs Frieza back in the Namek arc. All other fights, especially after it's discovered that there are levels beyond ordinary SSJ, puts SSJ up in the air in of how much it boosts any individual Saiyan.
No, not once there's a mention of how much stronger the guys get when turning blond. The only time Toriyama said anything about it was in an interview and he said that SS felt more like a 10x while drawing it on Namek, I think after they told him everybody thought it was 50x.
We can only assume when it's a 2x boost on top of a given form, due to how it can put somebody down with one or two blows, like Gohan vs Cell, seeing how doubling somebody in power tends to be an insurmountable gap in the series.

Also in DBS, SSB is implied to be x10 SSG. That's the only time a form got a multiplier assigned in-universe and not on ancillary material.

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Re: SSj Grade 4 power - old and new arguments

Post by Cursed Lemon » Fri Jul 01, 2022 4:07 pm

Am I an idiot or is there no actual controversy here?

We keep asking "is Grade 4 Goku stronger than Grade 3 Trunks" when we should be asking "is Grade 4 Goku stronger than Grade 3 Goku". Saiyan transformations are not equal across different saiyans.
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Re: SSj Grade 4 power - old and new arguments

Post by theherodjl » Fri Jul 01, 2022 4:14 pm

Koitsukai wrote: Fri Jul 01, 2022 9:05 amNo, not once there's a mention of how much stronger the guys get when turning blond. The only time Toriyama said anything about it was in an interview and he said that SS felt more like a 10x while drawing it on Namek, I think after they told him everybody thought it was 50x.
We can only assume when it's a 2x boost on top of a given form, due to how it can put somebody down with one or two blows, like Gohan vs Cell, seeing how doubling somebody in power tends to be an insurmountable gap in the series.

Also in DBS, SSB is implied to be x10 SSG. That's the only time a form got a multiplier assigned in-universe and not on ancillary material.
What about the video games or other mediums like the cards? Does any other material, whether it's canonicity is up for debate or not, suggest a 50-fold boost anywhere?
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Re: SSj Grade 4 power - old and new arguments

Post by Grimlock » Fri Jul 01, 2022 5:11 pm

Cursed Lemon wrote: Fri Jul 01, 2022 4:07 pmWe keep asking "is Grade 4 Goku stronger than Grade 3 Trunks" when we should be asking "is Grade 4 Goku stronger than Grade 3 Goku". Saiyan transformations are not equal across different saiyans.
They very much are. The difference you are talking about lies in the power of their base forms.

Even if the difference between base Trunks and Goku aren't that much, let us, in this scenario, put Trunks as the weaker one, Super Saiyan Grade 3 Trunks would be stronger than Super Saiyan Full Power Goku if we assume the former transformation does have a multiplier above x100, as I assume it does. As it would not only close the gap between them, it would be enough to surpass the latter one.

It's the power of the base form that will determine everything. And that difference can simply vanish with a transformation if it does provide enough boost, with a possibility to even surpass the stronger one.

In other words, to answer your question, Super Saiyan Grade 3 Goku is stronger than Super Saiyan Full Power Goku, as the former has a higher multiplier and we're talking about Gokus from the very same time period.


(I'll take this opportunity to add this, since it's related: people often say Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan and Super Saiyan 4 are "equals" without taking into consideration two important things:

1 - The period they come from (and the gap between them might be a big one at that).
2 - The difference in their base form's power.

Even though Xeno Goku is older, much more experienced and he comes from a point after Dragon Ball GT ended, he still was "one step behind" Goku, Super Saiyan 4 was not enough to close the gap or even surpass his counterpart. That means if we take a Goku from the exact same period as Xeno Goku comes from (or vice-versa, if we take Xeno Goku from AGE 780), he would defeat Xeno Goku easily, maybe without even needing to transform [then again, I should say that, at this point, Xeno Goku didn't have Super Saiyan 4 yet, so there's that]).
theherodjl wrote: Fri Jul 01, 2022 4:14 pmWhat about the video games or other mediums like the cards? Does any other material, whether it's canonicity is up for debate or not, suggest a 50-fold boost anywhere?
Everything related to the Super Saiyan multipliers come from the Super Exciting Guide, released in 2009, and hasn't appeared anywhere else ever since.
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Re: SSj Grade 4 power - old and new arguments

Post by Cursed Lemon » Fri Jul 01, 2022 6:31 pm

Grimlock wrote: Fri Jul 01, 2022 5:11 pm
Cursed Lemon wrote: Fri Jul 01, 2022 4:07 pmWe keep asking "is Grade 4 Goku stronger than Grade 3 Trunks" when we should be asking "is Grade 4 Goku stronger than Grade 3 Goku". Saiyan transformations are not equal across different saiyans.
They very much are. The difference you are talking about lies in the power of their base forms.
That's what I meant. Your base form determines your super saiyan strength.
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Re: SSj Grade 4 power - old and new arguments

Post by Grimlock » Fri Jul 01, 2022 9:47 pm

Thought you meant something like "Super Saiyan has x50 multiplier for Goku, but like, x60 for Vegeta" for some reason. Sorry then.
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Re: SSj Grade 4 power - old and new arguments

Post by Lukmendes » Sat Jul 02, 2022 3:05 am

I don't even know where "grade 4" came from.

Goku himself finds the muscled up forms to be worthless, and makes it clear that regular SS is more convenient to use, so him and Gohan focus on becoming better with that, and once their training is done, everyone talks like they're using regular super saiyan.

I don't think the multiplier itself is different, no such thing is implied, Goku and Gohan just did more efficient training than Vegeta and Trunks, and were able to become stronger because of that.

If Goku using that "Mastered Super Saiyan" had the intention of regular SS itself becoming stronger, then he or someone else would comment on that, because he definitely didn't have the intention of somehow finding an even stronger SS in Cell Saga once he deemed the muscled up forms to be worthless, so him accidentally making regular SS stronger than usual, yeah, he'd comment on that, if that was what's going on.
jjgp1112 wrote: Sat Mar 12, 2022 12:08 am My man, all Goku had to do was go SSJ3 and shock Vegeta so much the M on his head would have turned into an L and Buu would have never happened.

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Re: SSj Grade 4 power - old and new arguments

Post by Kaboom » Sat Jul 02, 2022 7:14 pm

Lukmendes wrote: Sat Jul 02, 2022 3:05 amI don't even know where "grade 4" came from.
It comes from the animanga adaptation of the Trunks special (I think?). It had some guidebook-like sections within it, one part of which had a breakdown of the different Super Saiyan forms. It called the mastered version of regular Super Saiyan "Grade 4" and then Gohan's transformation against Cell was called "Grade 5," because Goku hadn't introduced the "Super Saiyan 2" name in the manga yet.

What it didn't do was say or even imply that "Grade 4" was inherently any stronger than Grades 1 through 3, though. It just talked about the expected stamina advantages.
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Re: SSj Grade 4 power - old and new arguments

Post by ankokudaishogun » Sun Jul 03, 2022 2:45 pm

Koitsukai wrote: Fri Jul 01, 2022 9:05 am Also in DBS, SSB is implied to be x10 SSG. That's the only time a form got a multiplier assigned in-universe and not on ancillary material.
No, in the manga Blue is portrayed as LESS than x10 God: Tired Vegeta in Blue was less than ⅒ than his normal Blue power, and Goku's God was quite stronger.

Thus Blue>God>⅒Blue


Seriously,. people should stop assuming Blue is EXACTLY like SS.

Just because Blue is SS stacked on God, it doesn't mean it has the same multiplier of regular SS over Base, especially with the QUALITY difference given by God Ki.
Blue, after all, has "Perfect Ki Control" that regular Super Saiyan doesn't have, at least in the anime.
And if you want to stay manga-only, Blue has an initial explosion of power followed by a lower regular power-line, something that is completely absent from regular Super Saiyan

Hell, Blue Evolution is for all purposes and intents Blue Grade-2, but SS Grade-2 wasn't TWENTY times Grade-1


This also ties in the whole Blue-2\3 argument: just because they theoretically could it doesn't mean they should. Even in Heroes, Rosé-2\3 don't given that big of an improvement to Black

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Re: SSj Grade 4 power - old and new arguments

Post by Lukmendes » Sun Jul 03, 2022 8:16 pm

Kaboom wrote: Sat Jul 02, 2022 7:14 pm It comes from the animanga adaptation of the Trunks special (I think?). It had some guidebook-like sections within it, one part of which had a breakdown of the different Super Saiyan forms. It called the mastered version of regular Super Saiyan "Grade 4" and then Gohan's transformation against Cell was called "Grade 5," because Goku hadn't introduced the "Super Saiyan 2" name in the manga yet.

What it didn't do was say or even imply that "Grade 4" was inherently any stronger than Grades 1 through 3, though. It just talked about the expected stamina advantages.
While it didn't imply those things, the problem is that "grade 4" makes it sound like it's a different form in some way, when it's just regular SS1 with better stamina management and lack of emotional problems, so that name is questionable.

Thanks for the info by the way.
jjgp1112 wrote: Sat Mar 12, 2022 12:08 am My man, all Goku had to do was go SSJ3 and shock Vegeta so much the M on his head would have turned into an L and Buu would have never happened.

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Re: SSj Grade 4 power - old and new arguments

Post by TobyS » Thu Jul 07, 2022 10:54 am

ankokudaishogun wrote: Sun Jul 03, 2022 2:45 pm
Koitsukai wrote: Fri Jul 01, 2022 9:05 am Also in DBS, SSB is implied to be x10 SSG. That's the only time a form got a multiplier assigned in-universe and not on ancillary material.
No, in the manga Blue is portrayed as LESS than x10 God: Tired Vegeta in Blue was less than ⅒ than his normal Blue power, and Goku's God was quite stronger.

Thus Blue>God>⅒Blue


Seriously,. people should stop assuming Blue is EXACTLY like SS.

Just because Blue is SS stacked on God, it doesn't mean it has the same multiplier of regular SS over Base, especially with the QUALITY difference given by God Ki.
Blue, after all, has "Perfect Ki Control" that regular Super Saiyan doesn't have, at least in the anime.
And if you want to stay manga-only, Blue has an initial explosion of power followed by a lower regular power-line, something that is completely absent from regular Super Saiyan

Hell, Blue Evolution is for all purposes and intents Blue Grade-2, but SS Grade-2 wasn't TWENTY times Grade-1


This also ties in the whole Blue-2\3 argument: just because they theoretically could it doesn't mean they should. Even in Heroes, Rosé-2\3 don't given that big of an improvement to Black
We don't know that Evo was 20x in the manga do we? It only had to match kaioken 20 in the anime.
Yamcha almost certainly did not cheat on Bulma:
He was afraid of Women, Bulma was the flirty one.
Yamcha wanted to get married (it was his gonna be his wish)
He suggested they settle down in the Trunks saga.
Alternate future Trunks is not a reliable source.
Toriyama wanted new SSJ Kids and not make new characters.

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Re: SSj Grade 4 power - old and new arguments

Post by ankokudaishogun » Thu Jul 07, 2022 7:17 pm

TobyS wrote: Thu Jul 07, 2022 10:54 am We don't know that Evo was 20x in the manga do we? It only had to match kaioken 20 in the anime.
true, but it's realistic there is no real difference if any: they both served as "stronger than Blue but still below Omen"

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Re: SSj Grade 4 power - old and new arguments

Post by TobyS » Fri Jul 08, 2022 5:38 am

ankokudaishogun wrote: Thu Jul 07, 2022 7:17 pm
TobyS wrote: Thu Jul 07, 2022 10:54 am We don't know that Evo was 20x in the manga do we? It only had to match kaioken 20 in the anime.
true, but it's realistic there is no real difference if any: they both served as "stronger than Blue but still below Omen"
Oh for sure. I don't want to be a pedant per se but I like conservative power scaling. I like to think it's x2 he finished off topo he was already kinda matching with and impressed Jiren but not enough to get much done.

Given that red was over a 10th of blue I think it'd be weird if it was also more than 10fold as it's an upgraded form not a whole new thing
Yamcha almost certainly did not cheat on Bulma:
He was afraid of Women, Bulma was the flirty one.
Yamcha wanted to get married (it was his gonna be his wish)
He suggested they settle down in the Trunks saga.
Alternate future Trunks is not a reliable source.
Toriyama wanted new SSJ Kids and not make new characters.

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Re: SSj Grade 4 power - old and new arguments

Post by ankokudaishogun » Fri Jul 08, 2022 7:31 pm

TobyS wrote: Fri Jul 08, 2022 5:38 am Oh for sure. I don't want to be a pedant per se but I like conservative power scaling. I like to think it's x2 he finished off topo he was already kinda matching with and impressed Jiren but not enough to get much done.
oh, it works perfectly as x2 Complete, especially if Complete is x10 Blue

It can fit well with the anime portrayal as well: Goku managed to briefly overpower Zamasu using Kaiohken, which back then was at best x10.

So KKx10=Complete plus Evolution=KKx20 equals Evolution=Complete x2

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Re: SSj Grade 4 power - old and new arguments

Post by Goku9001 » Sat Jul 09, 2022 12:10 am

That's a fair assessment. I personally think Blue Evolved is closer to 3-4x but that's pretty much what I have.

Complete Blue = 10x Blue = 50x God is pretty crispy.

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Re: SSj Grade 4 power - old and new arguments

Post by ankokudaishogun » Sat Jul 09, 2022 9:44 am

Goku9001 wrote: Sat Jul 09, 2022 12:10 am That's a fair assessment. I personally think Blue Evolved is closer to 3-4x but that's pretty much what I have.

Complete Blue = 10x Blue = 50x God is pretty crispy.
so God=5x Base Blue? It fits with the God>10% Blue calculations.

And has Complete Blue, as in the "Real Power of Blue" on a 50x multiplier, the same as basic Super Saiyan, better fitting the whole "Super Saiyan stacked on God"

(obviously I seriously doubt such thought has been put in the production, but I like it manages to fit so well)

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