Vegeta's writing in the Namek-Frieza Sagas was truly lacking logic

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Geraldo
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Vegeta's writing in the Namek-Frieza Sagas was truly lacking logic

Post by Geraldo » Sun Aug 07, 2022 7:33 am

SO, let me begin with the fact that this point in time in-universe is the most successful in the franchise IMHO and in that of many others (just look how popular Frieza is); but Vegeta had just "learnt" how to sense ki and manipulate his energy (lowering and hiding his ki) by doing what exactly? Healing and resting in a medical machine on Planet Frieza #79?

Then we go to his spike growth in power within a few hours, from being "above 30,000" while fighting Recoome to "around 530,000" after all he did was to eat a Senzu bean and to sleep for about an hour; Not undergoing a "power awakening" process like Gohan and Krillin did (which makes their growth in power more logical).

Also, why is Nail so lowballed? I mean, Krillin went from ~1,500 to 13,000 and then to 75,000 within one day! But Nail who's much more powerful than him was stuck at 42,000? That's, like, Recoome level. Why couldn't he be at that number before powering up and let's say at 150,000 when fighting Frieza? I guess that Akira Toriyama and his editor/s didn't thought that deep on the numbers.

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Re: Vegeta's writing in the Namek-Frieza Sagas was truly lacking logic

Post by VegettoEX » Sun Aug 07, 2022 9:14 am

You mention "writing" but really most of this is in-universe justification stuff, so I'm moving the thread over to that forum sub-section.

I don't particularly have any sort of horse in the battle power race, but I did want to address this part:
Geraldo wrote: Sun Aug 07, 2022 7:33 am but Vegeta had just "learnt" how to sense ki and manipulate his energy (lowering and hiding his ki) by doing what exactly? Healing and resting in a medical machine on Planet Frieza #79?
My reading on that has always been that the fact that people could obfuscate their battle power perhaps never even occurred to folks like the power-forward Saiyans, so once he learned that was even a thing in the first place, he learned/honed it on the fly. And sure, maybe the recovery tank and near-death-power-up contributed to a little boost.

(This is probably the absolutely lamest and nonsensical analogy, but it reminds me of learning the galloping patterns in Dance Dance Revolution: I can follow rhythm no problem, and I absolutely knew which dance pads were supposed to be hit in what order, but it wasn't until I actually saw someone else in the arcade playing the song "Cowgirl" that I pieced it together, and was able to immediately put it into practice myself 100% no errors the very next game I played.)

It was honestly never even a question for me with here -- absolutely seemed like the kind of thing an overall prodigy like Vegeta would pick up immediately, and I don't need a sidebar from Toriyama explaining the precise mechanics of it.
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Re: Vegeta's writing in the Namek-Frieza Sagas was truly lacking logic

Post by Mireya » Sun Aug 07, 2022 2:23 pm

Ki sensing seems to be an ability in which you have to reflect about it and hone your spiritual skills. Vegeta had ample time to think and reflect upon things on his way to Planet Freeza 79. Vegeta was also starting to see through the SSj, as notied by Goku, when reflecting on the rocks, and Goku praised Vegeta's capabilities then. I think the first time chi sensing was truly developed more was when Goku drank the Choshinsui and could pinpoint where Piccolo Daimao was, much to Karin's surprise.

As for the power jumps, that seems to be a thing with every more highlighted characters in the Freeza arc. Goku went from 90,000 to at least 3,000,000 through one Zenkai boost, and Vegeta's Zenkai boost post his fight with Reacoom seemed to have a delayed effect as he just noticed to Jheese how he just realized this isn't an ordinary increase. I think that when a Saiyajin surpasses the Saiyajin's limits and is drawing near to the SSj, the Zenkai boosts are more pronounced... until it, presumably, disappears after they achieve the SSJ.

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Re: Vegeta's writing in the Namek-Frieza Sagas was truly lacking logic

Post by Ashur » Sun Aug 07, 2022 4:59 pm

The reason Vegeta got so powerful was because of the near-death power up that is exclusive to Saiyans, this is specifically addressed in the series as being the reason Vegeta is gaining power.

As for the ki sensing/supressing, i think VegettoEX is right that it never even occurred to him that such a thing was possible, and remember that Vegeta was supposedly a super-elite, the strongest Saiyan in potential, basically a prodigy amongst a warrior species, makes sense that he's able to pick up those abilities easily, given Goku, who is a low-class "trash", was able to pick up the Kamehameha and other abilities rather quickly, too, so Vegeta picking up such a complex ability as a seasoned warrior is fine by me.

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Re: Vegeta's writing in the Namek-Frieza Sagas was truly lacking logic

Post by theherodjl » Mon Aug 08, 2022 12:22 am

Vegeta already knew how to sense & control his own Ki as he could power up, and the fact that he could power up meant he also knew how to power down. It was merely a matter of figuring out how to feel out someone else's Ki as well as being able to sense their ability to increase or decrease their Ki. I imagine Vegeta spent his time in the healing tank trying to detect the individual Ki of the medical personnel around him as well as others in the facility. He didn't have anything else to do or anywhere to go for several days so he had lots of time to practice.
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Re: Vegeta's writing in the Namek-Frieza Sagas was truly lacking logic

Post by Geraldo » Mon Aug 08, 2022 8:58 am

1. I find it hard to find how much of headcanon and justifications of bad writing were given here. Not that I have an interest to bash anyone, but accepting badly written product is just what keep us getting more shallow and bad writing, as the ones in-charge see that no matter what bullshit they'll give us, people will approve that and will be all jolly about it.
Just look at the farce this franchise had evolved into over the years. Bad power scaling, promotions of characters because of merchandise (Saiyans) instead of using all the cast who can contribute to the fight, throwing in characters who were long retired like Master Roshi and Android 17 and making them "super heroic" cause Toriyama thinks it's cool to "annoy/troll" his audience, bad color swappings of older designs sadly presented as "transformations".

2. In the more "General Discussion" angle, which I had planned to get into once someone will reply, if there was another step of struggle before the Ginyu Force arrived (with the Ginyus being written stronger than before), or having Abo and Cado who were in some delay land on Namek right after the deaths of Burter and Recoome, and were ordered by Ginyu to keep an eye over Frieza's spaceship, only to partake in the struggle before Frieza shows up.

If you ask me, Vegeta was somewhere around 35,000 when fighting at full power against Recoome, and 70,000 against Jeice (a few days in the medical machine pushed the dying unconscious him from a 18,000 to 24,000; don't tell me you believe he got super duper strong in less harsher conditions?) which explains why he couldn't vaporise Captain Ginyu's old body; if anything after he went to sleep, he should be at 100,000 or a bit higher but not anything close to Frieza's 530,000 as his battles with Jeice and Ginyu weren't any Zenkai providers.

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Re: Vegeta's writing in the Namek-Frieza Sagas was truly lacking logic

Post by VegettoEX » Mon Aug 08, 2022 9:25 am

Geraldo wrote: Mon Aug 08, 2022 8:58 am I find it hard to find how much of headcanon and justifications of bad writing were given here.
You asked a question, and received several thoughtful, extensive responses. Things you don't personally like or agree with the direction of are not inherently "bad writing"; that seems like such a dismissive way to ask a question without actually wanting to listen to what folks say in response, instead imposing this definitive, unwavering standpoint on it from the start.

As I've already stated, the direction it was taken with Vegeta and this ability seemed entirely natural to me, and additionally I don't actually want or need Toriyama to literally explain the biological mechanics of how it happened.
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Re: Vegeta's writing in the Namek-Frieza Sagas was truly lacking logic

Post by Koitsukai » Mon Aug 08, 2022 11:22 am

I agree with most of the answers. Geets was already controlling his ki to some extent, he got better at it after seeing in person other ways of controlling it. He wasn't like Dodoria, always at 22k, whether he is in the can or fighting for his life.
He learned how to go from 15,000-ish down to 0. He's a prodigy, why wouldn't he be able to do it after seeing it in action? what type of prodigy would not be able to do it? Piccolo learned it on his own, too. It isn't that hard apparently, it's not kaioken or UI, and yes healing and resting sounds like a perfect opportunity to hone a mental ability. He had plenty of time, on his way to planet 79, in the healing tank and on his way to Namek.

I also don't have a problem with Vegeta eating a senzu, getting a boost (30-ish to 60-ish), and then taking a nap after 5 days of fighting around with no sleep, and getting another tenner, reaching the full extent of his boost. It's actually a small boost next to Goku's even though Geets received much more damage.
So the guy resting after 5 days of pure action and growing stronger doesn't bother me at all. He clearly wasn't fully rested when he killed Jeese and had more power in store that needed a break to come out in full.
Also, bad writing? this? nah. Bad writing is having characters do stuff they wouldn't do just for the plot to move forward, going from A to G just because. This ain't it, it has in-universe justifications, one liking them or not has more to do with the reader than with the piece itself.

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Re: Vegeta's writing in the Namek-Frieza Sagas was truly lacking logic

Post by VegettoEX » Mon Aug 08, 2022 12:39 pm

Thinking back on this more and reviewing things, it's even better than I initially thought:

When Dodoria tells Vegeta to hand over his scouter, Vegeta destroys it, saying he picked up this ability on Earth since if a Saiyan there could do it, why wouldn't be also be able to do so?

Immediately after defeating Dodoria, Vegeta flies off, and he ends up catching onto Kuririn's and Gohan's ki signature. They are able to supress it and hide, and Vegeta loses "sight" of them... noting to himself that he's still not perfect at this ki sensing thing, and maybe he shouldn't have recklessly destroyed the scouter.

It's absolutely not just a BING! VEGETA CAN DO THESE THINGS! moment as postured in the beginning of this thread. It's awesome stuff. It's explained right there, naturally into the ongoing narrative, without OVER-explaining it at the same time.
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Re: Vegeta's writing in the Namek-Frieza Sagas was truly lacking logic

Post by Geraldo » Fri Aug 12, 2022 6:38 am

VegettoEX wrote: Mon Aug 08, 2022 12:39 pm Thinking back on this more and reviewing things, it's even better than I initially thought:

When Dodoria tells Vegeta to hand over his scouter, Vegeta destroys it, saying he picked up this ability on Earth since if a Saiyan there could do it, why wouldn't be also be able to do so?

Immediately after defeating Dodoria, Vegeta flies off, and he ends up catching onto Kuririn's and Gohan's ki signature. They are able to supress it and hide, and Vegeta loses "sight" of them... noting to himself that he's still not perfect at this ki sensing thing, and maybe he shouldn't have recklessly destroyed the scouter.

It's absolutely not just a BING! VEGETA CAN DO THESE THINGS! moment as postured in the beginning of this thread. It's awesome stuff. It's explained right there, naturally into the ongoing narrative, without OVER-explaining it at the same time.
And his power should rise illogically "just because he needs to move on to the big boss"? And you will approve that without questioning? Any radical plot point should be built logically. I still don't find the quick "just because" earning of Vegeta suitable. There was never a need to enter a rage attack over my comment. I never felt this was needed to tantrum over.

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Re: Vegeta's writing in the Namek-Frieza Sagas was truly lacking logic

Post by Hugo Boss » Fri Aug 12, 2022 7:02 am

Geraldo wrote: Fri Aug 12, 2022 6:38 am And his power should rise illogically "just because he needs to move on to the big boss"? And you will approve that without questioning? Any radical plot point should be built logically. I still don't find the quick "just because" earning of Vegeta suitable. There was never a need to enter a rage attack over my comment. I never felt this was needed to tantrum over.
The plot point was explained. Vegeta picked up the ability on the fly because he is like Goku, a quick learner, yet he still needed to perfect it, like his monologue suggests. You just didn’t like the explanations, there are people who accept them, and there is no problem with that.

As for powerlevel stuff, you are quoting the wrong person, VegettoEX has little to no interest on this matter, lol. Again, his powerlevel skyrocketed mostly because he got a good rest. Gohan and Krillin, despite the latter not being a Saiyan, also steadily increased their power after defeating Ginyu, probably due to the same reason. Relaxing is a very important step on building power and they were continuously submitting themselves to stressful tasks. Like it or not, some people don’t need everything to be overly explained.

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Re: Vegeta's writing in the Namek-Frieza Sagas was truly lacking logic

Post by Geraldo » Fri Aug 12, 2022 8:15 am

Hugo Boss wrote: Fri Aug 12, 2022 7:02 am
Geraldo wrote: Fri Aug 12, 2022 6:38 am And his power should rise illogically "just because he needs to move on to the big boss"? And you will approve that without questioning? Any radical plot point should be built logically. I still don't find the quick "just because" earning of Vegeta suitable. There was never a need to enter a rage attack over my comment. I never felt this was needed to tantrum over.
The plot point was explained. Vegeta picked up the ability on the fly because he is like Goku, a quick learner, yet he still needed to perfect it, like his monologue suggests. You just didn’t like the explanations, there are people who accept them, and there is no problem with that.

As for powerlevel stuff, you are quoting the wrong person, VegettoEX has little to no interest on this matter, lol. Again, his powerlevel skyrocketed mostly because he got a good rest. Gohan and Krillin, despite the latter not being a Saiyan, also steadily increased their power after defeating Ginyu, probably due to the same reason. Relaxing is a very important step on building power and they were continuously submitting themselves to stressful tasks. Like it or not, some people don’t need everything to be overly explained.
That's why we are getting low level and disappointing materials like Dragon Ball Super and Super Dragon Ball Heroes; a fandom with no requirement of quality, gets such lame products.

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Re: Vegeta's writing in the Namek-Frieza Sagas was truly lacking logic

Post by Hugo Boss » Fri Aug 12, 2022 8:39 am

Geraldo wrote: Fri Aug 12, 2022 8:15 am That's why we are getting low level materials, a fandom with no requirement of quality, gets such lame products.
So, what is the purpose of this thread, then? First, you may have to figure out which aspects people find more compelling before making these comments. I want high quality story, I personally don’t need every tiny detail to be scrutinized, specially how characters pick up on fighting techniques and powerlevel stuff, to decide the scope of my enjoyment.

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Re: Vegeta's writing in the Namek-Frieza Sagas was truly lacking logic

Post by Godo » Thu Aug 18, 2022 2:41 pm

Geraldo wrote: Fri Aug 12, 2022 6:38 am And his power should rise illogically "just because he needs to move on to the big boss"?
Yes! That's kind of the whole storyline in the Freeza arc.
1. Goku needed to become stronger by constantly putting himself near death on his way to Namek to explode in power.
2.Vegeta needed to become stronger by the method of near death powerup so that he could kill Jeice when Ginyu took over Goku' body.
3.Vegeta beat up Goku's body so that Goku would get stronger by healing.
4. Then he needed to get stronger to match Freeza's 1st form so that he could force Freeza to transform into his second form, which apparently was by resting (not bad writing, resting restores your body as well as your mind, which made Vegeta to be able to fully use his power.
5.Then Piccolo needed to quite instantly become stronger via Fusion to be able to put so much pressure against Freeza so that he would transform into form 3.
6. And then Gohan needed to get a rage boost to push Freeza into form 4.
7. And then healed Goku appears, finally transforming to SSJ.

In the Saiyan arc we had Kaio-ken and Genki-dama.

In the android arc Piccolo needed to get insanely strong to fight off Dr. Gero and be the strong buffer against Vegeta and somehow backing Trunks.

In the Cell arc there is SSJ Grade 2 and 3 and SSJ2

In the Buu arc there is SSJ3 and fusion.

Apart from training between the arcs the whole series is dependent in huge and drastic leaps in power by different means.
And explanations are not Dragon Ball's great suit to begin with, so I don't see the problem at all. If we go by your standards the whole series suffers from bad writing.
And that formula goes for most Shônen manga as well.

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Re: Vegeta's writing in the Namek-Frieza Sagas was truly lacking logic

Post by Geraldo » Sun Aug 28, 2022 8:39 pm

Best option for facilitating the huge jump Vegeta went from getting his ass served to his mouth by Recoome into fighting on-par wirh Frieza's first suppressed form in a matter of less than a day would be that Frieza should have dispatched an interim rank soldiers to fight Vegeta before the Ginyu Force, let's say Abo and Cado who were both at 40,000 minimum, and have the Ginyu Force at the 60,000s except for Guldo and Ginyu who should get his SNES game maximum number of 240,000 (which helps explain why he didn't count Vegeta despite the fact that the Saiyan Prince could turn into a Great Ape with 180,000 in the recent past).

So... Vegeta goes from getting his ass kicked by Abo, to get healed by Goku's senzu bean, then he climbs from around 35,000 to 55,000 to combat Recoome (Goku took care of Abo and Cado, but got injured while taking out Aka who is at 120,000 yet manages to give a tougher fight than the gap in numbers show, and therefore isn't around when Vegeta, Gohan and Krillin fight the Ginyu Force), then he battles Burter and Jeice with his steadily increasing power level which allows him and the Earthlings (now twice as strong as they originally were) to secure a 3-0 over the Ginyus, with Captain Ginyu's pushed over maximum taking him to his knees with Gohan and Krillin's battle wisdom helping him to come on top, enough for a second Zenkai that places him near Frieza's 530,000 when at full power and after a good rest.
Vegeta vs. Abo: ~35,000 (maximum)
Vegeta (defeated): 6,000
Vegeta (healed by Goku's senzu bean): 55,000 (maximum)
Vegeta's increased strength after fighting against Recoome: 75,000
Vegeta vs. Burter and Jeice: 95,000 (in-battle Zenkai stretch)
Vegeta vs. Captain Ginyu: 130,000
Vegeta's all-out finisher blast: 188,000 (Ginyu takes it head on, but is taken out by a surprise attack by the fully powered Gohan and Krillin's best shots)
Vegeta out of breath: 3,000
Vegeta after sleeping: 250,000
Vegeta's all-out power against Frieza's first suppressed form: 500,000

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Re: Vegeta's writing in the Namek-Frieza Sagas was truly lacking logic

Post by ATA » Mon Aug 29, 2022 1:09 pm

Geraldo wrote: Sun Aug 07, 2022 7:33 am SO, let me begin with the fact that this point in time in-universe is the most successful in the franchise IMHO and in that of many others (just look how popular Frieza is); but Vegeta had just "learnt" how to sense ki and manipulate his energy (lowering and hiding his ki) by doing what exactly? Healing and resting in a medical machine on Planet Frieza #79?

Well he saw Earthlings do it. He just copied what they did. Same way Goku learned Kamehameha, Cell learned Instant Transmission, and Kid Boo learned teleportation. There's a history of characters learning techniques after watching them one time.
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