Could Present Vegeta Turn SSJ3?

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Could Present Vegeta Turn SSJ3?

Post by BeaBumby » Tue Aug 09, 2022 12:21 am

Obviously he couldn't in the Buu saga, that much is very clear, but a lot of time has passed since then. Do you think he could do it? Why or why not?
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Re: Could Present Vegeta Turn SSJ3?

Post by ankokudaishogun » Tue Aug 09, 2022 10:47 am

Sure he could. But there is no reason whatsoever to do it: it's an inferior transformation compared to God and Blue, and he might have unlocked a SS3-equivalent of power in SS2, like Future Trunks.

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Re: Could Present Vegeta Turn SSJ3?

Post by Koitsukai » Tue Aug 09, 2022 11:31 am

He can reach that power without the drains of that form. Probably he can grow more hair, but chooses not to, he can get the most out of that form with his powered up SS2 form, with no drawbacks.

This makes me wonder, though, could he amp his SS2 form (that surpasses Goku's SS3), becoming several times stronger than he already is in that form, or he'd just get longer hair with no power boost? I think the latter is the answer. If with his fake SS3, he is a 10, I doubt he could be a 40 with real SS3, I think he'd still be a 10 with longer hair and stamina issues.

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Re: Could Present Vegeta Turn SSJ3?

Post by super michael » Tue Aug 09, 2022 11:41 am

If one can master SSJ1 and SSJ2 to power them up, then there is no reason why SSJ3 can't be powered up more and reduce the strain and drain.

At this point in time only two Saiyans can use SSJ3.

Vegeta power exceeding Goku in BoG was just rage, it isn't like Future Trunks who can power up beyond natural SSJ2 at will.

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Re: Could Present Vegeta Turn SSJ3?

Post by WKZ » Tue Aug 09, 2022 12:14 pm

No
The sole power itself doesn't guarantee new transformation and there since we are talking about Super then there were 2 characters that had greater power than base Goku in Buu arc: Future Trunks and Vegeta. Neither of them transformed into SSJ3 when they really needed it and there's no execuse not to use it.
I think that current Vegeta could achieve SSJ3 but there's no need, since all forms before Blue are irrelevant at this point, even Blue is getting old soon, only future possible combination with UI could prolonge it's lifespan.
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Re: Could Present Vegeta Turn SSJ3?

Post by ZombieVito » Wed Aug 10, 2022 1:50 am

BoG would have been the perfect opportunity for Vegeta to get SS3 but he didn't. I seriously doubt he can transform tbh.

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Re: Could Present Vegeta Turn SSJ3?

Post by nineko » Wed Aug 10, 2022 3:47 am

I'm not sure about that, because he was basically his Z self in Battle of Gods, with a bit more of traditional training at most, so it didn't surprise me if he couldn't/didn't transform into SSJ3 at that time.

He probably became more than capable to achieve that transformation later on, during the course of Super, thanks to the extreme trainings he underwent, but he has no reason to use such a suboptimal form now that he has Red and Blue in his hands. Vegeta might be many things, but he isn't stupid, he wouldn't want to use suboptimal forms, like he didn't against Cell (unlike Trunks who did).

Vegeta would need a more than valid reason to use that form now, for example a new Zamasu wannabe who can somehow restrict the Saiyan duo from tapping into their godly ki. He might even resort to fusing with Goku in such a scenario, and if Gotenks's precedent means anything, Gogeta most definitely can transform into SSJ3 at this point.

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Re: Could Present Vegeta Turn SSJ3?

Post by Alruneia » Wed Aug 10, 2022 6:47 am

There's a part in the early Moro arc where Moro drains Goku and Vegeta's energy, causing them to regress through their forms one by one. (It's kinda goofy, but it exists so it's worth bringing up.) Goku goes Blue -> God -> 3 -> 2 -> 1 -> Base, while Vegeta goes Blue -> God -> 2 -> 1 -> Base. That implies Vegeta doesn't have access to SS3 at that point.
Vegeta could totally unlock SS3 whenever he wants, but he has no reason to, so he hasn't done so, and I guess that means the answer is no.
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Re: Could Present Vegeta Turn SSJ3?

Post by theherodjl » Wed Aug 10, 2022 6:55 am

I think a better question would be can Goten & Trunks turn SSJ3 as individuals? Because Gotenks has always been a catalyst towards Goten & Trunks quickly learning new & unusual abilities that it has never allowed them to properly grow as fighters by themselves. They are familiar with the various levels beyond SSJ but they have yet to even transform into SSJ2 thus far(although Future Trunks can) so it has me wondering what their actual potential is without the use of fusion.
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Re: Could Present Vegeta Turn SSJ3?

Post by ankokudaishogun » Wed Aug 10, 2022 7:53 am

super michael wrote: Tue Aug 09, 2022 11:41 am If one can master SSJ1 and SSJ2 to power them up, then there is no reason why SSJ3 can't be powered up more and reduce the strain and drain.
I suppose in theory it might be possible. But at ToP Goku is still claiming SS3 is a draining form.

And even GT Goku still has issues with it, requiring getting back his tail as stabilizer, and while it was at least in part because his kid body it was something he didn't need for SS1 and SS2.

It's quite realistic the form itself is flawed because Goku did obtain it while dead, thus in an abnormal situation.
And thus the "real" next step after SS2 is the "Powered" SS2 shown by Vegeta and Trunks.

The only (canon)elements suggesting SS3 might be a "natural"(of sort) progress from SS2 are Gotenks, but that's arguably just him copying a cool transformation, and Toyotaro's reverse chain transformation from Moro's arc, which was simply bullshit because God is not a direct progress of the regular SS transformation line(Goku and Vegeta going from Blue straight to SSs would have made more sense)

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Re: Could Present Vegeta Turn SSJ3?

Post by MCDaveG » Wed Aug 10, 2022 7:10 pm

I believe he can, but outside of DB Super Heroes and games, the form drains energy fast and Goku declares it useless after his ressurection and not working as good when not being dead in afterlife.

I know he uses it again against Beerus, but I guess it is because he ran out of the options at that time. I don't remember if Goku went SSJ3 in Super again besides in opening animation.

I guess that SSJ3 has become a useless form after Buu arc, same as Grade 2 and 3 bulky Super Saiyan forms and that Vegeta can transform into SSJ3 if he wanted, but there is no practical reason to do so. Even more after SSJ God and Blue got introduced and are the most powerful transformations in Super plus Vegeta's evolved version of that. Not counting Ultra Instinct or the manga exclusive Ultra EGO.

If SSJ3 stayed on top of Super Saiyan evolution after the end of Z without the hindrances or if there was short lived benefit of doing so, we might have saw Vegeta going for it - like in Raging Blast 2, where Vegeta and Broly got their SSJ3 as the strongest forms in Z without the context.
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Re: Could Present Vegeta Turn SSJ3?

Post by nineko » Thu Aug 11, 2022 2:30 am

MCDaveG wrote: Wed Aug 10, 2022 7:10 pmI don't remember if Goku went SSJ3 in Super again besides in opening animation.
He briefly uses it against Toppo in the manga (chapter 29), and he shows it to Caulifla in the anime (episode 113).

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Re: Could Present Vegeta Turn SSJ3?

Post by TobyS » Thu Aug 11, 2022 6:39 am

nineko wrote: Thu Aug 11, 2022 2:30 am
MCDaveG wrote: Wed Aug 10, 2022 7:10 pmI don't remember if Goku went SSJ3 in Super again besides in opening animation.
He briefly uses it against Toppo in the manga (chapter 29), and he shows it to Caulifla in the anime (episode 113).
In the Moro arc as they cycle down through their forms as they lose energy we briefly see it.
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Re: Could Present Vegeta Turn SSJ3?

Post by MCDaveG » Thu Aug 11, 2022 10:07 am

TobyS wrote: Thu Aug 11, 2022 6:39 am
nineko wrote: Thu Aug 11, 2022 2:30 am
MCDaveG wrote: Wed Aug 10, 2022 7:10 pmI don't remember if Goku went SSJ3 in Super again besides in opening animation.
He briefly uses it against Toppo in the manga (chapter 29), and he shows it to Caulifla in the anime (episode 113).
In the Moro arc as they cycle down through their forms as they lose energy we briefly see it.
Cool, thanks. I wasn't sure as I watched Super during it's run and haven't rewatched it yet. I am now in 5th year of the series rewatch and during Cell arc in Z :lol:

But I don't remember it being in Moro arc! I am more focused on the anime, but as I enjoy the manga versions of Champa and Trunks arcs more, I will probably reread the whole thing.
So going by manga, are the forms progression based on energy amount? SSJ, SSJ2, SSJ3, SSJ God, SSJ Blue in that order?
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Re: Could Present Vegeta Turn SSJ3?

Post by Koitsukai » Thu Aug 11, 2022 10:42 am

Goku used SS3 against Future Trunks, too.

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Re: Could Present Vegeta Turn SSJ3?

Post by MCDaveG » Thu Aug 11, 2022 12:01 pm

I seriously need to rewatch the stuff to get it also in context.
Were there any comments from Goku about SSJ3 at those times?
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Re: Could Present Vegeta Turn SSJ3?

Post by super michael » Thu Aug 11, 2022 1:00 pm

SSJ3 Goku vs Beerus = no mention about drain
SSJ3 Goku vs Future Trunks = no mention about drain
SSJ3 Goku vs C17 (manga) = no mention about drain
SSJ3 Goku vs Toppo (manga) = no mention about drain

Only the anime of ToP mentions about SSJ3 drain.

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Re: Could Present Vegeta Turn SSJ3?

Post by Koitsukai » Thu Aug 11, 2022 1:05 pm

super michael wrote: Thu Aug 11, 2022 1:00 pm SSJ3 Goku vs Beerus = no mention about drain
SSJ3 Goku vs Future Trunks = no mention about drain
SSJ3 Goku vs C17 (manga) = no mention about drain
SSJ3 Goku vs Toppo (manga) = no mention about drain

Only the anime of ToP mentions about SSJ3 drain.
Should be noted that Goku was dead tired when he used SS3 vs Caulifla. Maybe the drain was more because of his shape rather than the form's.

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Re: Could Present Vegeta Turn SSJ3?

Post by MCDaveG » Thu Aug 11, 2022 1:50 pm

Honestly, I actually never understood Goku's powering up against Buu just to fail miserably...
My reaction at first time was actually same as Vegeta's. Somehow, I have failed to grasp the logic behind Goku doing it and wonder what was the creative idea rendering SSJ3 useless like that after the big showdown against Fat Buu.
The draining power remark was similar to "oh, we probably defused because there's foul air".

To raise stakes at the end and make it more dramatic? There was no such issue in GT with SSJ3 either, when we go chronologicaly, so this bit at the end of Z always stood out to me, even more as a kid.
SSJ3 was still regarded as the strongest SSJ form in Z outside of the main story and not treated as a phase like Grade SSJs were, which were rendered useless for being bulky and slow right after their introductions.
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Re: Could Present Vegeta Turn SSJ3?

Post by dva_raza » Thu Aug 18, 2022 3:01 am

MCDaveG wrote: Thu Aug 11, 2022 1:50 pm Honestly, I actually never understood Goku's powering up against Buu just to fail miserably...
My reaction at first time was actually same as Vegeta's. Somehow, I have failed to grasp the logic behind Goku doing it and wonder what was the creative idea rendering SSJ3 useless like that after the big showdown against Fat Buu.
The draining power remark was similar to "oh, we probably defused because there's foul air".

To raise stakes at the end and make it more dramatic? There was no such issue in GT with SSJ3 either, when we go chronologicaly, so this bit at the end of Z always stood out to me, even more as a kid.
SSJ3 was still regarded as the strongest SSJ form in Z outside of the main story and not treated as a phase like Grade SSJs were, which were rendered useless for being bulky and slow right after their introductions.
It's just speculation but trying to look at it from how the writer’s perspective could’ve been.

Vegeta had already faced (and failed) against Buu with his SS2...
Later on, considering Goku was equal to Vegeta, in which way could the writer make Goku useful and let him have a shot against Buu without it being a repetition of Majin Vegeta vs Majin Buu? My guess is this could’ve been the point at which he came up with SS3. But then as a writing tactic he throws in the stamina drain condition. That way he explains Goku not using it against Vegeta, and also gives the form a 'downside' needed to extend the story and have other characters participate.
Basically he gives him a new transformation because why not? It’s cool. But I don’t think it’s idea was ever to be effective, it was just to add nuance to the plot along with a new upgrade for Goku.

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