Do you think Orange Piccolo Could have beaten Cell Max if he wanted to?

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DBZGeneral
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Do you think Orange Piccolo Could have beaten Cell Max if he wanted to?

Post by DBZGeneral » Tue Oct 04, 2022 10:58 am

Okay so I came here to ask the community whether or not Orange Piccolo Could have beaten Cell Max. Personally I think too many people are downplaying my man making him out to be weaker than he really is and not giving him the credit he deserves.

I will make my case for why I think Orange Piccolo Could have beaten Cell Max if he wanted to.

Point 1: He could have taken his senzu bean. Piccolo fights Gamma 2 twice in the movie, the second time being much more exhausting on his body because it was a more intense fight. He used up a lot of energy and was fatigued by the time cell Max shows up. Then he holds his own fairly well going toe to toe with Cell Max despite having used up so much energy and stamina through the gamma fights.

Despite being fatigued, he takes blow after blow from cell max and doesn't get killed or even knocked back to Green form. Manages to maintain Orange Form even after being struck by numerous energy blasts from Cell Max. He still gets back up and has energy left to wrap up cell max with his Arm and hold him down, even regenerating the arm he just lost.

Now Imagine if Orange Piccolo took his Senzu bean. He goes back to full power full stamina and full health right before he takes on Cell Max. That fight is playing out way way differently IMHO.

Point number 2: Piccolos Special Beam Cannon Would have been more powerful and more focused than Gohan Beasts was.

Come on man think about it. Power alone isn't the only thing that determines who's beam is better or stronger, sometimes it's all about the technique and skill of the user. And there is no one better at performing the Special Beam Cannon than Piccolo. While it is clear Gohan Beast is stronger than Orange Piccolo, his beam is visibly more chaotic and explosive. It was incredible of course, good enough to do the job, and good enough for Piccolo to say it was Marvelous, but you can clearly see the lack of experience in using the technique.

Now imagine Orange Piccolo is the one charging his signature attack at his highest level of power. Piccolo has evolved this move over the course of the series and mastered it to the point of extreme focus and precision. The technique is performed by concentrating all your Ki energy into a single point on the forehead, then firing it in two concurrent beams, one spiraling around the other to create a Drill like appearance. It requires extreme focus and Ki control to use effectively. The better you are at it, the more concentrated and devastating the beam will be, even capable of piercing Barriers created by Angels like Vados Barrier.

As demonstrated by his battle against the U6 Namekians, Piccolos SBC in that fight is the most Concentrated and consequently the most powerful SBC ever performed in the series prior to this new movie. It launches with light speed and comes out as a laser Thin Beam, concentrating all that energy drilling into a single point, tearing through whatever it touches, there's no stopping it. That is because piccolo mastered the technique he knows how to concentrate the power of the beam into it's most deadly and most powerful form.

We saw Potential Unleashed (Yellow Piccolo) throw a barely charged SBC at Gamma 2 and that was visually an impressive and powerful SBC for how short a time he charged it. And it effortlessly cuts through the environment it touches after it's reflected into different directions from gamma 2 energy Barrier.

I don't doubt that piccolo would be able to hit his target in the head, with such focus and mastery he has over the technique he isn't going to miss, and if he had to he could pin down Cell Max with one Arm. And yes he can hold him down with one arm IF he had taken his senzu bean and was at full strength, again IMHO.

So If you thought Gohan Beast Special Beam Cannon was Impressive, Orange Piccolos Special Beam Cannon would have been way better.

Point 3: Akira Toriyama was going to have Piccolo defeat Cell Max in the end anyway, before he was convinced to include Gohan by Toei Animation company.

This part is less about what was in the movie and more about the intent behind the movie. Akira Toriyama stated in an interview that the movie was really all about piccolo, and it was supposed to just be a Piccolo movie. A movie he wanted to make about his Favorite Character. He only changed things up when he was convinced by the Company to incorporate Gohan more prominently into the story.

So you see what that means? It means that the way Toriyama originally saw this movie, was just to have Piccolo be the entire star. Logically that can mean only one thing. That in his original vision Orange Piccolo beats both Gammas and Cell Max and is the main hero.

So if you were lucky enough to get to ask him "Could Orange Piccolo have beaten Cell Max?" I'm sure he'd say "Of course, that was the original plan all along before I had to change it!"

I don't think when Toriyama wrote the script that he made Piccolo weaker than cell max just to fit Gohan into the story, It makes more sense that he made Piccolo Hold back in that fight AND refuse to take his senzu just so he could pressure Gohan into awakening.

So what do you think, Do you agree Orange Piccolo could have beaten Cell Max if he wanted to?
Or do you believe that's all too much speculation and that it's clear he couldn't have won. And Why or why not?

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Re: Do you think Orange Piccolo Could have beaten Cell Max if he wanted to?

Post by ankokudaishogun » Tue Oct 04, 2022 11:57 am

No. He was visibly not powerful enough.

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Re: Do you think Orange Piccolo Could have beaten Cell Max if he wanted to?

Post by Koitsukai » Tue Oct 04, 2022 2:36 pm

He was running on fumes against a brainless one-armed Cell Max, so no.

Point 1: The senzu wouldn't have changed much, he would've lasted a little longer, but that's it, Cell Max was much stronger.
There are examples of depleted characters brought back to full health that still can't do anything. SSB Vegeta vs SS Black, Moro73 vs Goku, Goku vs Jiren, Gohan vs Buutenks. I mean, Cell Max was the one that screwed up Orange Piccolo, he didn't enter the fight half empty or injured, even though he could've used a senzu after burying Gamma 2 into the ground.

Point 2: Well, Roshi is the most experienced with KHH and has the weakest attack of them all, and not just after 20 arcs. Same for Kaioken, Goku surpassed Kaiosama with his own technique in no time. Buu also copied techniques, Moro73 taught Vegeta how to shoot a Big Bang Attack.
Seeing how Piccolo was being ragdolled by Cell Max, and Gohan just tanked him and smiled back, the gap is remarkable, so no matter how much experience Piccolo has with the attack, Gohan's is clearing. At the end of the day, the effectiveness of Ki attacks depends on the amount of ki available, and Gohan had much more of it than Piccolo.
Not to mention Gohan's been trying it on the side, after witnessing many times, and he might even have an improved version of it.
However, I think if Gohan were to hold down Cell Max, and Piccolo shot his heavily charged attack, he would've gotten the job done.

Point 3: I read about Big Green being the main star. But that's neither here nor there, that's a scrapped plan, and the story was changed to have Gohan at the helm and who knows what else was changed, and it's a type of speculation, about the mindset of the author PRIOR to coming up with the finished material, I'm not willing to entertain given that it leads nowhere. Nobody has seen the original script to compare to the finished one, so it's a moot point.

TL, DR: No, but if he were the one in charged of dealing the final blow, I think he could.

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Re: Do you think Orange Piccolo Could have beaten Cell Max if he wanted to?

Post by Trouser » Tue Oct 04, 2022 4:41 pm

Originally? Yes.
After forcing Gohan into the story? No.
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Re: Do you think Orange Piccolo Could have beaten Cell Max if he wanted to?

Post by GatoF » Tue Oct 04, 2022 6:13 pm

He probably could win if he had the time to train, as a fresh Orange nope.

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Re: Do you think Orange Piccolo Could have beaten Cell Max if he wanted to?

Post by BWri » Tue Oct 04, 2022 7:07 pm

In the movie as we got it, no, I don't think he would have defeated Cell Max one on one. If he was fresh he's probably 75% - 80% of Cell Max's power, at least the injured one we saw in the movie.

Funny enough, a friend of mine recontextualized the ending for me after we went to watch it. He pointed out that Piccolo may have been playing dead to push Gohan to the next level. I didn't think this initially, but the more I think about it the more it seems accurate. Piccolo got up pretty quickly after Gohan transformed and fought Cell mano-a-mano for a long while as Gohan charged up the drill beam.

Either he was just knocked unconscious briefly or playing dead, regardless it shows he's not too far from Cell Max if he could recover so quickly from that attack.
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Re: Do you think Orange Piccolo Could have beaten Cell Max if he wanted to?

Post by Peach » Wed Oct 05, 2022 2:18 am

Orange Piccolo against Cell Max would be like any of us trying to stop a rampaging rhinoceros or gorilla. We could slow it down, sure, but there's no way it's going down. Takes a different calibre of fighter (Beast Gohan) to fuck it up.

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Re: Do you think Orange Piccolo Could have beaten Cell Max if he wanted to?

Post by DBZGeneral » Wed Oct 05, 2022 10:17 am

Thank you for all your comments and feedback, I respect and appreciate it all. I like the healthy discussion.

I see the points of the people who have disagreed and I can totally see where they are coming from. Very valid points.

And to the people that did agree that he could at least have got the job done if him and Gohans roles were reversed i respect that.

Like I was never arguing that OP is above Cell Max in power, just that he could have successfully put him down if it were HIM delivering the final blow instead of Gohan.

So given the answers provided it seems that Yes orange Piccolo Could have theoretically beaten Cell Max if the movie played out differently and had him deliver the special beam cannon instead of Gohan. But in a straight fight of fisticuffs OP would not close the gap or overpower him obviously.

But yeah assuming he can hit the weak spot of cell max he certainly could pierce his head and finish the job.

I still really hope there is a future arc out there where piccolo gets to land the final blow and be the big hero.

I loved the entire movie and I loved how they incorporated Gohan, because I love the bond and team work piccolo and Gohan have.

But if I'm being honest, if can't stop thinking about what could have been for my favorite Character. It just would have been so amazing to see Piccolo defeat Cell Max and be the big hero, to get his huge Cinematic moment of a Dramatic finish. So I really really hope there will be another chance for him in the future of a new arc to be the big hero again, a chance for him to get his own "Gohan Beast" Moment.

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Re: Do you think Orange Piccolo Could have beaten Cell Max if he wanted to?

Post by MrSatan2099 » Wed Oct 05, 2022 11:34 am

I think under ultra specific circumstances any fight could potentially go differently.
For instance if things had lined up a little differently on Namek maybe the genki dama could have stopped Freeza?
It would have to be a perfect set up, but I suppose it could be possible. As far as a straight fight, or if Piccolo had been on his own, I don't think there's any way.
I do hope he gets another chance to shine in an upcoming story, maybe the Black Freeza arc of the Super Manga.

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Re: Do you think Orange Piccolo Could have beaten Cell Max if he wanted to?

Post by BWri » Thu Oct 06, 2022 1:32 am

DBZGeneral wrote: Wed Oct 05, 2022 10:17 am But if I'm being honest, if can't stop thinking about what could have been for my favorite Character. It just would have been so amazing to see Piccolo defeat Cell Max and be the big hero, to get his huge Cinematic moment of a Dramatic finish. So I really really hope there will be another chance for him in the future of a new arc to be the big hero again, a chance for him to get his own "Gohan Beast" Moment.
Maybe he'll win the next ToP. As a Piccolo fan myself, I just want to see him finish someone with the Gekiretsu Kodan because that attack f**ks!
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Re: Do you think Orange Piccolo Could have beaten Cell Max if he wanted to?

Post by GatoF » Thu Oct 06, 2022 6:27 pm

DBZGeneral wrote: Wed Oct 05, 2022 10:17 am Thank you for all your comments and feedback, I respect and appreciate it all. I like the healthy discussion.

I see the points of the people who have disagreed and I can totally see where they are coming from. Very valid points.

And to the people that did agree that he could at least have got the job done if him and Gohans roles were reversed i respect that.

Like I was never arguing that OP is above Cell Max in power, just that he could have successfully put him down if it were HIM delivering the final blow instead of Gohan.

So given the answers provided it seems that Yes orange Piccolo Could have theoretically beaten Cell Max if the movie played out differently and had him deliver the special beam cannon instead of Gohan. But in a straight fight of fisticuffs OP would not close the gap or overpower him obviously.

But yeah assuming he can hit the weak spot of cell max he certainly could pierce his head and finish the job.

I still really hope there is a future arc out there where piccolo gets to land the final blow and be the big hero.

I loved the entire movie and I loved how they incorporated Gohan, because I love the bond and team work piccolo and Gohan have.

But if I'm being honest, if can't stop thinking about what could have been for my favorite Character. It just would have been so amazing to see Piccolo defeat Cell Max and be the big hero, to get his huge Cinematic moment of a Dramatic finish. So I really really hope there will be another chance for him in the future of a new arc to be the big hero again, a chance for him to get his own "Gohan Beast" Moment.
I think they actually reversed the roles in the movie. Goku hold Raditz while Piccolo charged the Makankosappo, in Piccolo and Gohan vs Goku and Tien his only purpose was to charge an attack against Goku and in Piccolo and Gohan vs the U6 namekians once again his only purpose was to fire the Makkankosappo because he couldn't do much else.
In the movie Piccolo was the guy to hold the enemy for Gohan and I liked that in the movie Piccolo got more fight scenes and was not limited to being in the back line.

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Re: Do you think Orange Piccolo Could have beaten Cell Max if he wanted to?

Post by Civic » Wed Oct 12, 2022 4:01 am

Trouser wrote: Tue Oct 04, 2022 4:41 pm Originally? Yes.
After forcing Gohan into the story? No.
I'd agree with that. Though the parallels between Goku restraining Raditz for a Piccolo Special Beam Cannon and Piccolo restraining Cell Max for a Gohan Special Beam Cannon were pretty cool.

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Re: Do you think Orange Piccolo Could have beaten Cell Max if he wanted to?

Post by Ashur » Sat Dec 03, 2022 6:57 am

I think he would beat him, albeit not as easily as Gohan did, it would be a hard-won victory and he would likely requiere someone to hold off Cell to charge the Makankosappo, this all without becoming giant as he said the giant form was worse than the regular Orange form.

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