A couple of questions about Freeza, Androids, Vegeta....

Analytical Delusion · Post by **Analytical Delusion** » Thu Mar 08, 2007 9:53 am

So, I was sitting down reading some manga a few hours ago, and the following questions came to mind:

1) Was Freeza truly at his maximum power at any point after he landed on earth, or did Trunks merely see the opportunity to take him out, and take it?
2) How powerful were 17, 18 in comparison to Freeza, and how effective exactly were the three years of training?
3) Did Vegeta achieve SSJ2 during the 7 years between Cell and Buu, and how long did his ban on fighting/training last?

I guess there aren't really any particular correct answers to these questions, but I was wondering what different opinions people might have on the boards here (btw, since 3 is a particularly touchy/irritating/evil issue for some, feel free to ignore it and concentrate on the other two =P).

Rocketman · Post by **Rocketman** » Thu Mar 08, 2007 10:57 am

All IMO:

1. Freeza was not at his full power on Earth ever. Gohan says "He can get far stronger than this" when they sense Freeza's ki. No-one ever comments on him powering up.

2. There are no definate numbers, but SSJ Goku is stronger than Freeza, then he trains for three years. SSJ Vegeta is as strong as Goku when the Androids show up (possibly stronger) and he's not quite powerful enough to take out 18 (but 17 states that all the Z Warriors together could kill 18) and then 17 is stronger than 18.

3. I think he did achieve SSJ2 during the seven years. On the second part, if you take Movie 9 as canon, Vegeta probably restarted training after Bojack's attack. If not, Vegeta probably just got too bored and went back to training sometime.

Mystic Jack · Post by **Mystic Jack** » Thu Mar 08, 2007 12:25 pm

1) I sincerely doubt it, someone who gave Goku so much trouble I doubt was at full power when Trunks just took him out in about 10 minutes? Please...

2) Vegeta was a Super Saiyajin when he fought the androids, and he got beaten. This pretty much demonstrates they were stronger then Freeza.

3) I'd say yes, I doubt the Saiyajin Prince would stay lying down for long.

omegacwa · Post by **omegacwa** » Thu Mar 08, 2007 2:32 pm

1. I assume that he wasn't at full power, but he was probably around his power when he fist transformed to his final form on namek. Although Trunks is a SSJ, his power was clearly less than Goku's. Plus he had far less training and technical skill than goku, so i am assuming he just got a perfect shot in when the opportunity arose. Not to say he couldn't defeat freeza anyway.

2. If you throw out any power level charts that have been floating around for years, I would say the androids are like, Freeza + 1/2 Freeza(19 and 20), or Double/Triple Freeza's strength(18 and 17). Vegeta SSJ was far stronger than Android 19 and 20, yet was unable to defeat Android 18 or 17. Yet, Vegeta put up and excellent fight, which means he was only a little bit shy of the Android's (17 and 18) Power.
So yes, even Android 19 and 20 were stronger than Freeza. As for the three years of Training, I would say Vegeta benefited the most from it.

3. I would say his hiatus from fighting lasted a few month's to a year, tops. Vegeta's life is training and fighting. I think eventually he realized that if Gohan could reach the next stage of SSJ, so could he.
Also, I believe he was able to Reach SSJ2 during the 7 years. Simple math concludes that it took him less than 3 years to reach SSJ1, and only 2 months to reach USSJ. So logically, in seven years, he would eventually reach SSJ2, consider it doesn't really require and emotional shock to create, unlike SSJ1.

Xyex · Post by **Xyex** » Thu Mar 08, 2007 2:37 pm

1) Yes. To think that Freeza wouldn't have used his full power against a Super Saiya-jin, the one thing he was actually afraid of, is... well, stupid. Let's not forget that he was a cyborg, so that means that they may not have been able to even sense all of his power. They may have felt what they remembered as half while in fact he was even stronger than his former full power (don't forget, it's mentioned that he's even stronger now than on Namek).

2) Tough call, really. They were obviously stronger. But the margin by which they were is very debatable. Twice as strong, three times, four times? I figure that 18 was probably around 3 times Freeza's full power. 16 was probably close to 4 or 5 times, and 17 would have been in the middle.

3) Absolutely. Vegeta was an SSJ2 prior to his Majin boost. I doubt he stopped training for long and he probably transformed at least a year or two before Buu showed up.

Rocketman · Post by **Rocketman** » Thu Mar 08, 2007 2:42 pm

Xyex wrote:1) Yes. To think that Freeza wouldn't have used his full power against a Super Saiya-jin, the one thing he was actually afraid of, is... well, stupid. Let's not forget that he was a cyborg, so that means that they may not have been able to even sense all of his power. They may have felt what they remembered as half while in fact he was even stronger than his former full power (don't forget, it's mentioned that he's even stronger now than on Namek).

Has anybody ever gone to "Full Power" in DBZ without someone commenting or them making a big production?

Terra-jin · Post by **Terra-jin** » Fri Mar 09, 2007 9:08 am

1. Freeza wasn't in his pumped-up 100% form on Earth so I guess he wasn't at full strength. King Cold was far from his max. strength as he could transform two more times. Trunks just wanted to end it quickly after assuming that Goku wouldn't make it.
Goku probably would've wanted to see both Freeza and Cold's full strength.

2. I still think it's weird that a couple of androids could have much more power than Freeza, the most powerful being in all the Universe. But I agree with omegacwa on their rough power levels.

3. Whether he achieved SSj 2 during the 7 years of after is a long debate which I will not go into (because I don't think it really matters), but I'd say that Vegeta's vow to stop fighting was only temporary. His ultimate goal was defeating Goku, but I guess he find a new goal in surpassing Gohan.

t0ffe3m4n · Post by **t0ffe3m4n** » Fri Mar 09, 2007 9:16 pm

Xyex wrote:Vegeta was an SSJ2 prior to his Majin boost.

Sorry, my memory is a little fuzzy..

When did that happen? i.e. when was it ever shown?

Black Mist · Post by **Black Mist** » Fri Mar 09, 2007 9:34 pm

t0ffe3m4n wrote:
Xyex wrote:Vegeta was an SSJ2 prior to his Majin boost.
Sorry, my memory is a little fuzzy..

When did that happen? i.e. when was it ever shown?

No it was never shown just assumed by the fan community.

lets go swimming · Post by **lets go swimming** » Fri Mar 09, 2007 9:41 pm

1. Furiza isn't at full power, as stated by gohan. And then he only manages one generic chi blast against trunks. A furiza hardly gives goku any problems once goku turns SSJ, even at 100%.

Goku and vegeta after the 3 years are stronger than trunks for sure, and the androids are much stronger than they are. It seems the 3 years of training was very effective.

I see no evidence to suggest vegeta was SSJ2 before the charm. He clearly says that he got charmed to close the gap between him and goku when he noticed when goku goes SSJ2 against yakkon.

He also has no clue just how strong goku is as a SSJ2. A power such as SSJ2 gohan or cell affected the entire planet. If vegeta became a SSJ2, some one would have noticed.

gohanku · Post by **gohanku** » Fri Mar 09, 2007 9:54 pm

1.Well, Freeza did not know of Trunks or his SSJ form and he did say "I can't wait to see the face of that monkey once he comes back to his home planet to see everyone he know dead!" So I say he was holding some power back.

2.17 and 18 were stronger than 17 and 18 of Trunks' time and Trunk was stronger than Freeza, so... And if Vegeta and everyone survived the cyborgs then the training must have help.

3. It is possible but then why would Vegeta be shocked of Goku's SSJ2? I say he still didn't reached it yet.

omegacwa · Post by **omegacwa** » Fri Mar 09, 2007 11:31 pm

no one knew vegeta had become a SSJ1 either. I know on the show it says that he did it in space, but that is not really canon as it is never shown in the manga.

Anonymous Friend · Post by **Anonymous Friend** » Sat Mar 10, 2007 9:42 pm

If Vegeta had been able to reach SSJ level 2, I doubt that he would have went through the humiliation of having had someone help him to gain more power to defeat Goku. Vegeta's a proud proud man. I just don't see him seeking that kind of help unless he really really needed it.

Tyro · Post by **Tyro** » Sat Mar 10, 2007 9:49 pm

Anonymous Friend wrote:If Vegeta had been able to reach SSJ level 2, I doubt that he would have went through the humiliation of having had someone help him to gain more power to defeat Goku. Vegeta's a proud proud man. I just don't see him seeking that kind of help unless he really really needed it.

I might as well post this here. This is my take on why Vegeta was a SSj2 after the seven years of peace.

Tyro wrote:This is why I believe Vegeta was a SSj2 before the charm.

Allow me to post evidence I find against certain theories. I'll bold the numbers which are the more serious arguments for your leisure to find.

Dragonball, Volume 36

1. Even though this doesn't mean much, the very first thing Vegeta says to Gohan is "You look out of shape." Take it how you will. Vegeta said this with no emotion and a hardened face.

2. When Gohan went to get Bulma to come up with a solution about him not being able to wear a helmet in the Tenkaichi Budokai Vegeta told Gohan he'd enter as well.

Vegeta: "Once you were more powerful than me. But how about now?"

With a smile on Vegeta's face, and no off expressions thrown out, he mentions this. Vegeta had seen what Gohan was capable of doing as a SSj2 in the Cell Game, and as I stated before, seen that he lost some power from not training. Yet he still wanted to enter and fight Gohan, his only real competition. And this was before Gohan even mentioned not using the SSj state in the tournament.

3. A statement by Bulma about Trunks plays in here.

Bulma: "It's true! This bum doesn't do anything but work out! Just like his dad!"

As you can see, it is shown Vegeta spends quite a lot of time training. Enough so Goku commented on how he must have actually trained harder than him.

4. When Goku started talking to Bulma, Gohan and Vegeta, he stated he would enter the tournament too.

Vegeta: "I'll look forward to it. But will you? I'm stronger than before."

Judging by this statement, Vegeta had to be stronger than Goku from the Cell Game to be showing off like he is. This makes two people who once were several times greater than him in power, and now he seems to not care. And this reflects back to how he treated Gohan. This should also mean he surpassed Gohan's power while fighting Cell, and that was above Goku's.

5. It's stated Vegeta trained in at least 150 Gs. And we know he used 300 G training for the Artificial Humans before. This reflects on his training.

6. On the way to the tournament, Gohan mentions not turning SSj here. Vegeta's reply is as such:

Vegeta: "Fine. Whatever. If nobody's a Super Saiyan, we'll be on equal terms. I'll still have the upper hand."

Again, a smile on his face, not a worry in the world. Now I know some may say "That's just Vegeta. He's over confident," (even though I don't agree with that in the least and if you want to know, ask and I'll tell, but it's really not pertaining to the subject at hand) but wouldn't you say he's doing this a bit often? Why act over confident if he isn't, to some degree, sure of himself? It's just a bit much to not back it up...

Dragonball, Volume 37

7. At the tournament Vegeta draws out a number that pins him with Goku. He's not scared at all and is in fact ready to fight him with a big grin over his face. This is at least proving he could match him at the Cell Game. What would be the point of fighting with an enemy who's strength you already knew was greater than your own?

8. Gohan becomes a SSj2 at the Tenkaichi Budokai. Vegeta's comment was:

Vegeta: "Feh...He was better back when he beat Cell!"

Now I know what some may think here, too. "He's seen Gohan when he was stronger. Why should he be shocked?" It's the sheer fact Vegeta didn't hint at anything at all. Not a "He's still powerful though," or any type of acknowledgment at all. He simply thought about how weak Gohan had gotten. As if he could do better.

9. When Goku tried to run off with Kaio-shin, Vegeta told him that they had a score to finish now. He thought himself strong enough to stand up to Goku even after training in other world and stating himself to be stronger.

Dragonball, Volume 38

From here on until number fifteen are examples showing how strong Vegeta is in relations to others that are found powerful.

10. When Kaio-shin mentions Dabra for the first time and how he's so powerful he rules the demon plane, Vegeta doesn't seem too impressed. Just a weird look at Kaio-shin and a "...". If you see the picture, you could tell he's thinking "That's all? You're afraid of him...?"

11. When Dabra is mentioned for the second time and how this makes things "difficult" Vegeta says:

Vegeta: "You don't think we can beat him?"

And it wasn't the kind of line where he was asking if it was true. It was the kind like "We can beat him, but you seem to not think so."

12. Vegeta makes a clear statement he's stronger than Dabra.

Vegeta: "I'll bet this Boo isn't much to speak of, either. Just like Dabra."

Kaio-shin: "What?! Like Dabra...?! What do you mean?"

Vegeta: "I'm saying Dabra's not as terrible as you think. We saw him outside, and we could easily have handled him as long as we dodged his saliva!"

Now depending on whether or not you think he could have taken Dabra as a SSj or not plays here. Remember to read this part with an open mind. Think if he could be a SSj2, please.

13. After Goku blows up Yakon, Vegeta states:

Vegeta: "... I see... *two panels later* So Kakarrot has surpassed the Super Saiyan wall, too."

Unlike some, I see this as Vegeta meaning himself and Gohan as the other SSj2s. I see this because of how calm Vegeta acts. He has not one drop of sweat hanging from his face, nor one gasp of how Goku is a SSj2. It appears to be a solid face showing no emotion. A sort of "who cares" kind of thing. The transformation wasn't important, the power he had was.

14. When Goku asks Gohan if he had been training, Vegeta says:

Vegeta: "He took peace as an excuse to slack off. We're stronger than he is now."

How can Vegeta be stronger than Gohan if he can't turn SSj2? There isn't any proof to show Vegeta as a SSj could take SSj2 Gohan of the Boo Saga.

15. While Gohan is combating Dabra, Vegeta states:

Vegeta: "He still shouldn't have this much trouble with him...Pathetic...Gohan was stronger as a kid..."

Vegeta mocks Gohan about how much trouble he is having because of his lack of training. Yet another line showing how he feels because of his new strength. And he later says he'll finish the fight for him.

16. What can be noted about Vegeta turning SSj2 as a Majin is that he just did it. He just jumped to it. As if he knew it was there before. Goku reaches the SSj2 state then Vegeta mentions how he's stronger than Gohan. Then he does it himself.

Dragonball, Volume 42

17. What can be noted after Vegeta reaches the Majin level is how he has veins appearing all over his body. Every seen after he is Majin has him covered in them. Yet when he is a SSj and SSj2 against the Boos, nothing is there. Except the occasional head vein which appears on every character.

That's my take on it anyway.

Anonymous Friend · Post by **Anonymous Friend** » Sun Mar 11, 2007 12:03 am

I was gonna come back and edit my post by adding that if Vegeta needed the extra power, then that might have meant that Goku SSJ2 was very superior to Vegeta's SSJ2. But, alas, my revision was preempted. I'm gonna come back an re-read what Tyro posted cuz I'm sure that I've read it in another topic.

Duo · Post by **Duo** » Sun Mar 11, 2007 2:00 am

Tryo covered it preeeetty dang well. All of that forms a near invincible wall of evidence suggestion Vegeta was comfortably able to use Ssj2. I typically just assume he was in about the power range Gohan was when he fought Cell, and Goku obviously being beyond this, and Gohan below it. This is similar to how Trunks, Goku, and Vegeta were all of different strength levels when the Artificial Humans arrived, although it could be argued where Trunks falls in, it was heavily suggested Vegeta was the highest at the time.

MajinVejitaXV · Post by **MajinVejitaXV** » Sun Mar 11, 2007 2:15 am

*applauds Tyro*

Well done sir, well done. I agree 100%.

-Corey

TheMajinRedComet · Post by **TheMajinRedComet** » Sun Mar 11, 2007 7:48 pm

IMO I think that Vegeta wanted to be evil again, not because he needed more power, but because he thought of himself as weak because he had become nice. Vegeta let himself be possessed because he wanted his black heart back and not be held back by is family or his emotions. Frankly I think it comes down to he wanted to remain a Saiyan and not become a human like Goku did.

gohanku · Post by **gohanku** » Mon Mar 12, 2007 2:28 am

TheMajinRedComet wrote:IMO I think that Vegeta wanted to be evil again, not because he needed more power, but because he thought of himself as weak because he had become nice. Vegeta let himself be possessed because he wanted his black heart back and not be held back by is family or his emotions. Frankly I think it comes down to he wanted to remain a Saiyan and not become a human like Goku did.

I don't think that is the case. If he really wanted to be evil, why did he fight Majin Buu? Why did he want to save the Earth and most importantly, if he really was evil why did he say Good Bye to Trunks Bulma and Goku in that such way?

Duo · Post by **Duo** » Mon Mar 12, 2007 3:55 am

Goku - "Unbelievable...I thought I trained hard in the afterlife...but we're dead even. You must've trained harder than I did..."

Vegeta - 'No. I thought I did, but you're more gifted than me...I could never make up the difference between us. I finally saw this when you fought Bobbidi's monster...it was a huge blow, that's when I made up my mind..."

Kanzenshuu

A couple of questions about Freeza, Androids, Vegeta....

A couple of questions about Freeza, Androids, Vegeta....

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