Canon or not? That is the(my) question.

JesseD · Post by **JesseD** » Mon Apr 23, 2007 2:13 am

DBZ Movie 13 Wrath of the Dragon (Dragon Fist Explosion!! If Goku can't do it, who will? or something or the other). I love it and I still watch it once every week. Since the Movies are non-canon, I seem to think this is. For a place in continuity, I think it happens in the 5 or 10 years in between Kid Buu being defeated, and when Goku goes to train Uub.

So Goku being alive or gone can't be a problem. Tapion giving Trunks a sword could cause problems, though. It's quite obvious that it's not Future Trunks' sword(who knows how he got that...), but Trunks does have a sword Dragon Ball GT. I asume that is Tapions sword, but Dragon Ball GT creates its own barrel of problems(Mystic or Super Saiyan? Are Toei idiots? That one's for sure). Goku can go Super Saiyan 3, since this should take place after Buu, that's no problem. Same for Gotenks. Gohan can use his "Mystic" Super Saiyan form. Videl is the Saiya-man 2 (Great Saiya-girl, I can't beleive FUNi used both of those wordings), so that's cool. Bulma's haircut is the same as Kid Buu being killed style.

Appearenes' aren't any issue. Bulma has a time machine in the end of the movie. Future Trunks could have given her the plans, but lets be realistic people. It could be one she thougt of making, but it's the same as Trunks'. So that's a semi-issue.

But whats your veiw on this? I tend to think it is canon. But I could easily be wrong. I might be wrong about everything I just posted, but I think I'm right. What is your opinion? I making a documentry to show people on YouTube, so I'll see what they think. I would much appreciate others opinions on this matter. Seeya and thanks for reading.

Olivier Hague · Post by **Olivier Hague** » Mon Apr 23, 2007 2:21 am

JesseD wrote:Tapion giving Trunks a sword could cause problems, though. It's quite obvious that it's not Future Trunks' sword(who knows how he got that...)

But it's also quite obvious it's meant to be that sword (based on the ending, for example). The writer(s?) simply didn't think too hard / care too much.

But whats your veiw on this? I tend to think it is canon.

Same as the other movies: not canon.

MisterFlashdude · Post by **MisterFlashdude** » Mon Apr 23, 2007 3:20 am

None of the movies were made to fit into the storyline, but some manage to mesh easier than others. Everyone has their own view on just what parts of the franchise are canon though, so if you want it to be... there's nothing wrong with that.

I, however, have always held the opinion that none of the movies are canon. Just easier that way for me.

JesseD · Post by **JesseD** » Mon Apr 23, 2007 3:31 am

I'm not trying to force my opinions down peoples throat, tear them a new asshole or fuck them in the neck by anymeans. I think it might be canon, but it certainly isn't. Damn good AMV footage, though. Please tell me what you think.

It seems that all of the Movies are canon-and-not in some way. I think Movie 5 is canon, but Gohan makes it non, cause of his tail.

Conan the SSJ · Post by **Conan the SSJ** » Mon Apr 23, 2007 3:47 am

MisterFlashdude wrote:None of the movies were made to fit into the storyline, but some manage to mesh easier than others. Everyone has their own view on just what parts of the franchise are canon though, so if you want it to be... there's nothing wrong with that.

100% agreed.

I've already made my thoughts and points clear on this matter many times, but since JesseD seems to be new to the forum, I'll make it so once more:

I wrote:There are the Daizenshuus or something in them (timeline guide?) stating movies 1 and 5 take place in the anime, whilst it's pretty obvious to almost any DBZ fan worth his salt (no Naruto jokes, I despise that dub theme with a vengeance) that movies 9 and 13 can get perfectly fine spots in said anime universe. But overall, there's no official fact or whatnot to dictate which movies can take place in the anime universe, it's open to interpretation and can be however it is from each of our own points of view. I've said a thousand...no, a million times, this is how I view the anime universe's timeline/canon:

Bardock Special.
Original DragonBall Series -- Episodes 1 - 153.
Dead Zone Movie.
DragonBall Z Series -- Episodes 1 - 117.
Trunks Special.
DragonBall Z Series -- Episodes 118 - 125 (till the point where the screen freezes as the 3 years quickly pass by).
Cooler's Revenge Movie.
DragonBall Z Series -- Episodes 125 (from the last minute of this episode when the 3 years have passed) - 194.
Bojack Unbound Movie.
DragonBall Z Series -- Episodes 195 - 288.
Wrath of the Dragon Movie.
DragonBall Z Series -- Episodes 289 - 291.
DragonBall GT Series -- Episodes 1 - 64 (right up to the final 8 minute sequence, culminating with Goku departing with Shenlong).
Goku Jr. Special.
DragonBall GT Series -- Episode 64 (The final 8 minutes, 100 years later).
How and why I view said movies in anime canon:

DBZ Movie 1: I view it more than a year before Raditz' arrival on Earth, and explain Kuririn's interaction with Gohan as him playing along with Roshi and Bulma trying to figure out who he was before Raditz showed up, that or he just plum forgot (he did get a couple major bumps to the head, short-term memory loss anyone?). Besides, flashbacks, references, and even a saga based on the movie are seen later in the anime (while it's "filler", this is in the confines of the anime universe, a separate entity entirely from the manga canon). One other thing: the "Sacred Water" is brought back up in the Bebi saga in GT (which I view canon), so the Garlic Jr. saga provides a backround for that.

DBZ Movie 5: Here I view movie 5 between the conclusion of Goku's driving school adventure and the 3 year blip. I hold to explanations that Gohan simply has had a haircut and off-screen grown his tail back (just as Goku had done during his world travels in original DB) though gets it cut off-screen due to Doore bringing its weakness back into the picture. The whole buildup of Goku's SSJ transformation can simply be explained as; it was for dramatic effect and also it had probably been a while since Goku last went SSJ, as he'd been seen training with Gohan and Piccolo in normal form. Plus; Cooler's later seen in GT, as my point of view dictates, is canon in the anime universe.

DBZ Movie 9: Many reasons explained already, though I basically view it between Trunks defeating his timeline's androids and when Goku and Kaio arrive at Enma's (I simply see Goku and Kaio resting at another branch area in curiosity to watch the Intergalactic Tournament). Chichi's by now given birth to infant Goten, who is most likely being looked after by the unseen Ox King (if this means anything, Ox was there just after Goten's birth in the movie 11 credits, so we should consider he'd still be close with Goten). Trunks' return to the past, he's stayed long enough for what in reality is his last trip to see Gohan and his Father, his hair naturally grows back out, and his Mother's most definitely refined his sword. Gohan's buildup of his SSJ2 transformation...well, dramatic effect as with movie 5, and as seen when Goku first went SSJ, it apparently takes some training to advance to a new super level at will after transforming (which Gohan likely hadn't done as he'd be studying and helping his pregnant mother around).

DBZ Movie 13 Part 1: Now c'mon, this can definitely be viewed by anyone in the anime canon, I myself view it taking place between the conclusion of the "filler" party in West City (episode 288) and the start of the 10 years following Buu's defeat. Buu somewhat gets a nod to being around as Bee is seen being looked after by Trunks and Bulma, so likely he's gone on a vacation of sorts with Mr. Satan (whom is also absent). I view the reason Goku and the others only get one wish from Shenlong as opposed to 2 (or 3, whatever) is because it hasn't been a full year since Buu's memories were erased, but rather in the span of 4-6 months following. I like to think Gohan and Videl are in their senior year of high-school, very soon to be graduated (though that isn't mentioned).

DBZ Movie 13 Part 2: One last thing; why Goku beats an opponent SSJ3 Gotenks and even Ultimate Gohan couldn't? I simply go with the assumption he powered up to the 100% power he spoke of wanting to use against Kid Buu, though never got a chance. When you think about it, we have no idea what "percentage" of power Goku was at in SSJ3 when he first fought fat Buu, and the same can be said for his battle against Kid Buu. Overall, it's a dramatic effect I see, and the fact Goku and Trunks team up to defeat Hildegarn and Trunks is the last person seen in the movie, it seems like a perfect prelude to the start of the final three episodes (where Trunks is first seen). Trunks' sword; obviously NOT the sword of Future Trunks', no matter what BS the Daizenshuu says of it, the final clip/flashback of Future Trunks is merely showing that the present version is following in his future counterpart's footsteps as being a great swordsman (the same sword he uses in GT).

I've said my piece, no movies fit in the manga universe, and it's open to interpretation with the anime; where I view four of the 17 DB/Z movies as being canon. Deal, or no Deal?

Deus ex Machina · Post by **Deus ex Machina** » Mon Apr 23, 2007 6:08 am

I personally choose to believe that the movie is canon to the anime storyline, since it's the first time we see Goku's Ryu-ken, a finishing technique that we see a lot of in Dragonball GT. This is usually a non-issue though since most fans choose to discount the movies and GT (not to mention a huge chunk of the anime) at all.

JesseD · Post by **JesseD** » Mon Apr 23, 2007 8:51 am

I still count it all as Dragon Ball. And I embrace it as a great show, and do not care if it is canon, I just want peoples opinions so that I can compare them to my own. I don't think that I 'm right or better than anyone, I just have my own values.

Goku's Ryu-ken(FUNi:Dragon Fire Toei: Dragon Fist Explosion) is used 4 times. Once in movie 13 to defeat Hildegarn, once to defeat Hell Fighter 17, once to defeat Iys(how do you spell that?) Shenron and once ,in a failed attempt, against Omega Shenron.

I only just registered for this forum, but am probably THE MOST hardcore Dragon Ball fan in Australia. I have watched Dragon Ball since I was 5, and love it. I can't go a day without watching it. I have shelled out so much money buying the show, it's just not funny(and I don't mean FUNi).

Pieter · Post by **Pieter** » Mon Apr 23, 2007 8:58 am

Do all movies fit in its own cannon? As in, what if all the movies were one big seperate timeline, is that possible? Movie 2 happens somewhere after Movie 1. movie 1 is the start of this timeline, movie 13 is the end of this timeline... etc,

Post by **Kaboom** » Mon Apr 23, 2007 10:13 am

#13 is really one of the only two (along with #9) that can fit in the story. Mr. Satan and Buu are nowhere to be seen, but there's several viable options to explain that. As for the sword... well, just because Trunks isn't going to end up having and using it like his future counterpart did, doesn't mean it isn't the same sword. It would seem that Future Trunks got it from Tapion at some point. I mean, couldn't the whole Hildegarn mess have happened in Trunks' timeline, too?

Hildegarn: *Is released somehows* GRAAAAR!
Tapion: *Plays ocarina*
Hildegarn: *Goes nappy-bye*
Trunks n' Androids: WTF?
Tapion: Please... you must kill me to end this monster...
Androids: Hmmmmm... 'kay. *Shoot*
Tapion: Aaack!
Androids: *Leave*
Trunks: ...Can I have your sword?
Tapion: -gurgle- X_X *Dies*
Trunks: <_< >_> *takes the sword*

Well, I mean, it was probably a little more dramatic than that... But still, alternate timelines doesn't necessarily mean alternate sources for the sword. He still could've gotten it from Tapion, IMHO.

Vincent · Post by **Vincent** » Mon Apr 23, 2007 10:29 am

There were always a few movies I thought were canon. Just cause they fit fairly easily.

Pieter · Post by **Pieter** » Mon Apr 23, 2007 11:31 am

I still don't count movies cannon, because you know, not every year in the dragon ball world has to be filled with villians and desperation.

caejones · Post by **caejones** » Mon Apr 23, 2007 1:47 pm

Because as we see sometimes, some characters have lives outside of fighting evil. ... And I think last night it was that I had a dream involving a DBZ live action movie... and at one point it cut to that Baseball-ness with Yamcha. And... just... stayed there. And had Bulma check her Email (WTF?), and... Guh, I wanted to wake up just so something interesting would happen after a while...

.

*ahem*. A different timeline for the movies could work, I suppose, but some elements of the Anime timeline have to be incorporated (I.E, Vegeta randomly showing up on Neo Namek, Freeza's defeat getting Cooler's attention, Trunks-ness, pretty much everyone that escaped from hell in Movie 12).
Heh heh... this could turn out interesting...er...

Conan the SSJ · Post by **Conan the SSJ** » Mon Apr 23, 2007 8:13 pm

I do have a suspicion that DBZ movie 7 could take place in the unseen timeline 4, where Cell never comes to the past and the Z warriors are successful in defeating the Androids through means of the deactivation remote. One could say it's right before when that Trunks goes back to his time to defeat his Androids and get killed by Cell. Of all people, Duo actually brought this theory up to me some time ago I believe, it's interesting to wonder. Yeah, the movies weren't originally made to fit into canon, but that doesn't make it wrong to attempt to fit them in a certain regard in your own perspective; kinda like how I do so for the four movies I pointed out above.

Tyro · Post by **Tyro** » Mon Apr 23, 2007 8:33 pm

I only view the manga as canon. That means I don't count any and all filler material in the anime, the movies and Dragonball GT.

Dayspring · Post by **Dayspring** » Tue Apr 24, 2007 10:11 pm

Tyro wrote:I only view the manga as canon. That means I don't count any and all filler material in the anime, the movies and Dragonball GT.

You should note that Toriyama loved the Bardock special so much that he added Bardock into the manga AFTERWARDS.

Here's my thought:

Movies 1, 5, 9 and 13 are always the major contendors. However, I feel none count as canon, despite how the daizenshuu claim movies 1 and 5 do.

Movie 1: Takes place about a half year before Z. Would work too, if not for the fact that Kamesennin, Bulma and Krillin hear of Gohan for the first time in Z. How could this be if Goku got the radar from them and told them all about Gohan less than half a year ago? I mean c'mon! Krillin got PEED ON by the kid!

Movie 5: Pre-transformation, Cooler is stronger than Mecha Freeza, yet Tenshinhan, Yamcha, and Vegeta can't sense his Ki? BULL.

Movie 7: I like to think this movie takes place in the timeline where the Trunks from Cell's timeline got the remote control. Rather than work on Cell in this timeline, Gero's machine perfected #s 13, 14 and 15. This explains why they defeated #17 and #18 prior to the movie, but still can't go beyond SSJ. Of course, this is non-canon and just my fairy tale wish.

Movie 9: Takes place shortly after Goku's death at the hands of Cell. The only problem is that Trunks visited them too damned early. He's YOUNGER than the Trunks who killed his timeline's Cell, which the narrator clearly explains is when Trunks is going back in time to visit the gang.

Movie 13: Works if not for the sword. It's clearly about how Trunks got his sword and is confirmed in the daizenshuu that it's the same sword Future Trunks got. Sadly, it takes SSJ3 Goku to kill Hildegarn. Though I've also entertained the idea that Future Tapion could have absorbed Hildegarn and either the Androids or a hardened Gohan or Trunks killed him, the years don't add up. Future Trunks gets his sword in the 3-yrs after Future Gohan dies. Meanwhile movie 13 takes place when Trunks is like 7.

SaiyamanMS · Post by **SaiyamanMS** » Tue Apr 24, 2007 10:41 pm

Dayspring wrote:Movie 1: Takes place about a half year before Z. Would work too, if not for the fact that Kamesennin, Bulma and Krillin hear of Gohan for the first time in Z. How could this be if Goku got the radar from them and told them all about Gohan less than half a year ago? I mean c'mon! Krillin got PEED ON by the kid!

Well, Goku always considered his four star ball to have the soul of his Grandpa, Son Gohan. Perhaps that's what they thought he meant when he said "Gohan's been kidnapped!" especiallly since he asked for the Dragon Radar to find him.

And Krillin... Well, he got some nasty rocks on his head. Also, maybe he repressed the memories so he could forget being peed on.

Dayspring wrote:Movie 13: Works if not for the sword. It's clearly about how Trunks got his sword and is confirmed in the daizenshuu that it's the same sword Future Trunks got. Sadly, it takes SSJ3 Goku to kill Hildegarn. Though I've also entertained the idea that Future Tapion could have absorbed Hildegarn and either the Androids or a hardened Gohan or Trunks killed him, the years don't add up. Future Trunks gets his sword in the 3-yrs after Future Gohan dies. Meanwhile movie 13 takes place when Trunks is like 7.

It doesn't matter what the Daizenshuu say about it being the same sword. It clearly isn't. It's the story of how Chibi Trunks got A sword. Not how Chibi Trunks got THE sword that Future Trunks had. Also, the Ryuu-ken returns several times in GT.

Olivier Hague · Post by **Olivier Hague** » Wed Apr 25, 2007 12:00 am

Dayspring wrote:Future Trunks gets his sword in the 3-yrs after Future Gohan dies. Meanwhile movie 13 takes place when Trunks is like 7.

Just because you first see Trunks with that sword after Gohan's death, that doesn't necessarily mean he didn't have it before that...

SaiyamanMS wrote:It doesn't matter what the Daizenshuu say about it being the same sword. It clearly isn't.

Well, it clearly shouldn't be. And yet, it's obviously meant to be the same sword.
It doesn't quite make sense, like many things in the movies...

Dark Vegeta-Sama · Post by **Dark Vegeta-Sama** » Wed Apr 25, 2007 12:35 am

Wasn't there an interview conducted several years ago in some magazine where Toriyama advocates movie 13 as being a part of the canon storyline?

Post by **desirecampbell** » Wed Apr 25, 2007 12:50 am

Dark Vegeta-Sama wrote:Wasn't there an interview conducted several years ago in some magazine where Toriyama advocates movie 13 as being a part of the canon storyline?

I quite doubt it.

ETC123 · Post by **ETC123** » Wed Apr 25, 2007 1:02 am

Dark Vegeta-Sama wrote:Wasn't there an interview conducted several years ago in some magazine where Toriyama advocates movie 13 as being a part of the canon storyline?

The jist i get is that Toriyama honestly doesnt care about canon or where things fit. That's the realm of people who don't actually have constructive things to do.

Kanzenshuu

Canon or not? That is the(my) question.

Canon or not? That is the(my) question.

Re: Canon or not? That is the(my) question.

Who is online