Freeza's power levels?

[Xyex]

Who says that Piccolo's power level was that of a Super Saiya-jin when #19 and #20 appeared? I though that was only when he joined with Kami.

Krillin (IIRC) comments on it when Piccolo faces off against 20. He says "Piccolo's power is like that of a Super Saiya-jin" (paraphrased).

[Dragon Ball Daisuki]

Can anyone supply us with scans? Not that I doubt the statement's validity, but it'd be meaningful to see the dialogue all the same.

^_^

[Dayspring]

Can anyone supply us with scans? Not that I doubt the statement's validity, but it'd be meaningful to see the dialogue all the same.

^_^

Not a scan, but here's what was said in Glenat's version:

Piccolo...! What possible kind of training could he have followed...?! He's not even a Super Saiyan!

Viz's version:

He's so powerful...!! And he's not even a Super Saiyan!! What kind of training's he been doing...?

Neither version directly states he's as strong or stronger than an SSJ, but it's implied by the fact that he's kicking an android's ass that he can hold his own against one. For all we know, Piccolo is still only as strong as Freeza's max, if not weaker.

I don't see why being a Namek would make it impossible to gain massive boosts. We know fighting stronger opponents results in everybody getting stronger, just that Saiyans get the most. Having a Super Saiyan to spar with for 3 years just means Piccolo can, for the first time in his life, push himself harder than ever. If he gets wounded, all he has to do is regenerate. Sure he'll lose energy, but that will just make the training more intensive. It kind of goes without saying that Goku and Gohan won't take advantage of that energy loss to kill Piccolo...

[Dragon Ball Daisuki]

Makes sense.

I was thinking, since this topic was originally geared towards Freeza: just what do you think was Freeza's max? The Daizenshuu says it's 120,000,000 (give or take a zero -wink), with Goku at 150,000,000/15,000,000. Now, I definitely remember in the anime, Freeza "subduing" Goku, to put it lightly, upon reaching full power. It seemed to go a little something like this:

We have Super Saiya-jin Son Goku. He completely owns on 50% Freeza. After making Namek-sei's core unstable, Freeza hits roughly 70% (He says, "Not even three quarters of my power") and hurts Goku slightly, then he powers up to 100% -- MAX POWER. Now at this point, he is actually STRONGER than Super Saiya-jin Son Goku and proves it by dominating him for a while. But since his body is so thrashed (from the beginning Freeza admitted he had trouble controlling his full power) Goku remarks that he is losing power fast and Freeza will soon be even weaker, and this much is true. So, they are later even, and then Goku takes the higher level of power. Make sense?

If this is all canon, I'd mark Freeza's maximum as 180,000,000/18,000,000. I guess what I'm curious about as whether or not this all transpired in the manga. Thoughts on this?

[Duo]

If Freeza's max did, in fact, surpass Goku, it wouldn't be by that absurd of a margin. Also, the only way the numbers work in the Daizenshuu for full accuracy is if it is referring to Freeza after he's been burning out for a while.

For the Manga perspective...

When Freeza peaks, he starts an assault on Goku and appears to have the upper hand, but then Goku shows that he's not nearly as damaged as he seemed at first. They have another exchange in which Goku takes the upper hand. They then engage in a Kamehameha vs. super body aura thing duel. Freeza manages a potent sneak attack through this that Goku cannot defend and knocks him far underwater. We then have the whole thing with Porunga and the wishes. Next time they fight, Freeza has started burning out and Goku dominates. That's basically it.

I don't think Freeza surpasses Goku based on this, but if Goku is 150,000,000 like the Daizenshuu says, Freeza would be at least 145,000,000 at his peak.

I don't see why being a Namek would make it impossible to gain massive boosts. We know fighting stronger opponents results in everybody getting stronger, just that Saiyans get the most. Having a Super Saiyan to spar with for 3 years just means Piccolo can, for the first time in his life, push himself harder than ever. If he gets wounded, all he has to do is regenerate. Sure he'll lose energy, but that will just make the training more intensive. It kind of goes without saying that Goku and Gohan won't take advantage of that energy loss to kill Piccolo...

That's how I feel about it as well. Thanks for the detailed analysis.

[Dayspring]

I liked the daizenshuu's PLs. It makes sense since it basically explains that Freeza is only 80% of Goku's strength when at max, while taking into effect the obvious facts of the manga. The fact that there's such a difference between Goku and himself explains how Freeza could fight on par, and even hurt Goku, while explaining why Freeza burned through all his energy.

[desirecampbell]

The daizenshuu numbers are fine - except that that means Piccolo is well over a million - which is impossible.

*shrug*

But he has to be, since it's clearly stated in the manga.

*shrug*

I still think SSj Goku shouldn't have been more than three million.

*shrug*

[Dayspring]

The daizenshuu numbers are fine - except that that means Piccolo is well over a million - which is impossible.

*shrug*

But he has to be, since it's clearly stated in the manga.

*shrug*

I still think SSj Goku shouldn't have been more than three million.

*shrug*

Are you being sarcastic? I can't tell. ^^;

It makes perfect sense that Piccolo be over 1 million: he trained like crazy at Kaio's and then FUSED with Nail, who already has a PL of 42,000. Nail is astounded by Piccolo's strength, which probably means that Piccolo is somewhere just below Nail to completely surpassing Nail. Now fuse them together.

And I don't see any reason why SSJ Goku would be around 3 million. Even if you think his PL is only a bit over Piccolo's (ie: between 1 and 2 million), 3 million is still only kaioken x3, when the manga shows it must be over kaioken x40.

[Analytical Delusion]

Sort-of-related question...is it possible that the SSJ transformation acted as a transformation and a zenkai all at once? That might explain a lot both now, and in the Android Arc.

More on topic, roughly how much stronger did Freeza become after his second transformation? Using power levels or not, I figure it can be anywhere between twice and three times as powerful as the previous incarnation.

Finally (not to shift the conversation), Is there any reason to believe that Freeza was not more powerful than Cyborgs 19 and 20?

[Dayspring]

Sort-of-related question...is it possible that the SSJ transformation acted as a transformation and a zenkai all at once? That might explain a lot both now, and in the Android Arc.

More on topic, roughly how much stronger did Freeza become after his second transformation? Using power levels or not, I figure it can be anywhere between twice and three times as powerful as the previous incarnation.

Finally (not to shift the conversation), Is there any reason to believe that Freeza was not more powerful than Cyborgs 19 and 20?

1) There isn't a shread of evidence to support this though. Besides, Goku was tired, not near-death.

2) Again, we haven't any hint regarding how strong third form Freeza is. I'll never understand why people maintain that it has to be either 2x or 3x form two...

3) Yet again, we have no comparison for #19 and #20 to Freeza. #19 was only strong against SSJ Goku because the heart virus kicked his ass.

[Kaboom]

1) There isn't a shread of evidence to support this though. Besides, Goku was tired, not near-death.

Didn't Vegeta get a decent zenkai from taking a nap at one point?

[desirecampbell]

Are you being sarcastic? I can't tell. ^^;

It makes perfect sense that Piccolo be over 1 million: he trained like crazy at Kaio's and then FUSED with Nail, who already has a PL of 42,000. Nail is astounded by Piccolo's strength, which probably means that Piccolo is somewhere just below Nail to completely surpassing Nail. Now fuse them together.

Completely serious. I mean, how long was Piccolo "training" (read: sitting under the tree, ignoring Kaio) for? The timeline lists his arrival as December 18th - six days before he's revived. And when he died he had a power level of only a few thousand.

So, let's say he trained 10 times as hard as Goku did, for 7 days, starting at a power level of 5000 (even though we know he trained less hard and was significantly weaker)

Goku went from (at least) 400 to 8000 between April 29th and November 2nd. That's a 20 fold increase in 187 days.

So in less than one twenty-sixth of the time, Piccolo's power increased at least 10 fold. That means he's increasing he's strength at a rate 13 times that which Goku experienced. And he did so sitting on his ass.


And that's if he was only slightly more powerful than Nail. And unless Namekkian absorption adds the two strengths together and then multiplies by the result ten, Piccolo had to have been even stronger.

...after a week of sitting on his ass.

[Kaboom]

...after a week of sitting on his ass.

Maybe Rou Dai Kaioshin was invisibly dancing around him that whole time! If a day or two did that much for Gohan, imagine how much a whole week's worth would power a "Mystic Piccolo!"

[/fatigue-fueled joke]

[Xyex]

...after a week of sitting on his ass.

He wasn't sitting. He was meditating. Which seems to be his favorite form of training. If it's enough to get him from 408 to about 3k in year, I can see him making good gains while dead. And I still take issue with them only being there six days. Piccolo, at the very least, should have been able to get there in a week or less.

[desirecampbell]

He wasn't sitting. He was meditating. Which seems to be his favorite form of training. If it's enough to get him from 408 to about 3k in year, I can see him making good gains while dead. And I still take issue with them only being there six days. Piccolo, at the very least, should have been able to get there in a week or less.

Still, he increased at least 10 fold in six days. In the previous year he increased less than 10 fold. Even if he took the whole 51 days between his death and his revival to "meditate", that's still more than seven times the strength increase he had the previous year.

And that's assuming he was at the same level Nail was. And considering that Nail was so impressed (and he was near or at 1,000,000 after merging with Nail) he was probably far stronger that that.

I mean, if he can get that powerful simply by sitting around, you'd think he'd have done so for, say, an hour - which would probably have doubled his strength and let him destroy Freeza.

[Xyex]

Still, he increased at least 10 fold in six days. In the previous year he increased less than 10 fold. Even if he took the whole 51 days between his death and his revival to "meditate", that's still more than seven times the strength increase he had the previous year.

And that's assuming he was at the same level Nail was. And considering that Nail was so impressed (and he was near or at 1,000,000 after merging with Nail) he was probably far stronger that that.

I mean, if he can get that powerful simply by sitting around, you'd think he'd have done so for, say, an hour - which would probably have doubled his strength and let him destroy Freeza.

But you're assuming Nail considers Piccolo powerful because he's as strong as, or stronger than, him. But who says that's the case? Nail is the most powerful Namek on the planet, yes. But he's also WAY beyond the others. IIRC, the others were at no more than 3,000. If Piccolo had increased to even just 5,000 Nail would have been impressed because he suprasses all other Nameks besides himself.

And don't forget how much damned power Fusion gives you. Goten and Trunks became stronger than everyone else but Gohan. Goku and Vegeta became stronger than EVERYONE else, including an overly powered Super Buu who'd absorbed Gohan.

I mean, sure, using 5k for Piccolo means that, from his perspective, his power is increasing over 200 fold. But if you look at it from Nail's perspecitve it's a lot less. Hell, if you use the SSJ multiplier of 50 for it, taking Nail's base, that gives you a final power of 2,100,000. Definately higher than "Over 1 million".

[desirecampbell]

Hmmm... I thought Nail said something about Piccolo being even stronger than himself.

Can anyone check?

[Conan the SSJ]

Hmmm... I thought Nail said something about Piccolo being even stronger than himself.

Can anyone check?

Nail only states that he's impressed with Piccolo's power and that had he not separated from Kami, he would've had enough to defeat at least first-form Freeza for sure. Mind you, this is from the exchange in the dub. Someone going off the Viz manga or Daimao translation would be more reliable.

[Duo]

Hmmm... I thought Nail said something about Piccolo being even stronger than himself.

Can anyone check?

No such mention occurs in the Manga.

And what Conan speaks of is actually something the Great Elder says, but it's in reference to losing to the Saiyans. He might not have fallen had he not been split in two.

[DemonKingPiccolo]

It is often a misconception that Super Saiyan Goku was at 12,000,000. This however is inaccurate. People forget that Freeza stated that during his fight with Goku, he was only using a fraction of his power, and this occured before he powered up to 50%. My guess was that Freeza's 4th form base was around 4 million or so.

Goku was 3 million as his base. This was when Freeza stated that he was only using a "fraction of his power". Goku's Super Saiyan is 50x his base. 3,000,000 x 50 puts him at about 150,000,000 for Super Saiyan.

Goku's 20 fold Kaio-Ken gives him a PL around 60,000,000, and he wasn't able to beat Freeza (50%).