Super Saiyan ki

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Super Saiyan ki

Post by *PINHEAD* » Sun Jul 18, 2004 11:47 pm

In Dragon Ball, "ki" is the life force that people have. Correct me if I'm wrong, but the amount ki is the amount of power someone has. When a Saiyan goes Super Saiyan, his power is supposed to increase many fold. However, in Dragon Ball, Piccolo mentioned that the Super Saiyan state should take some effort to stay in. This, as well as Son Goku's saying that the "Beyond" Super Saiyan state (the really big, buffed up one) saps up a lot of energy. Maybe this could be mistranslation on Viz's part, but if not, this doesn't make sense. How does the Super Saiyan state increase your ki, yet take up some ki at the same time? It's kinda like spending money to get money. My theory is that the Super Saiyan state increases a person's ki, but puts some stress on the person's body, requiring some effort to stay in; using your ki to retain your ki. I might have just answered my question, but does anyone else have an opinion?
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Post by Fuujin » Mon Jul 19, 2004 12:25 am

My guess is as good as yours. I like to think of it as an easier to maintain Kaioken, just to make things easier.
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Post by TripleRach » Mon Jul 19, 2004 12:32 am

The way I view it is, transforming takes up energy, but increases your power. Staying in that state is also strenous on the body. Power, energy, and physical condition all seem to be apart of your ki. I'd like to give some supporting examples for these thoughts, but I seem to be getting sleepy. @_@

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Post by *PINHEAD* » Mon Jul 19, 2004 1:21 am

TripleRach wrote:The way I view it is, transforming takes up energy, but increases your power. Staying in that state is also strenous on the body. Power, energy, and physical condition all seem to be apart of your ki. I'd like to give some supporting examples for these thoughts, but I seem to be getting sleepy. @_@
Mmm...I see what you're saying. But if that's the case, energy would mean ki, right? If transforming into Super Saiyan took up ki but increased power, how come when Son Goku transformed, his ki increased also? Man, this whole ki thing confuses my poor little mind...
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Re: Super Saiyan ki

Post by James R. Cadwell » Mon Jul 19, 2004 1:59 am

Maybe the SSJ transformations just eat up a proportionally larger amount of "ki" than a Saiyan's normal form. They'd be less efficient (more strenuous?) and consequentially couldn't be maintained forever.

Non-SSJ Goku might have 100 "energy units" that are consumed at the rate of replenishment -- so he'd be able to stay in his normal form forever. (unless he uses full power or something)

SSJ Goku might have 1000 energy units that are consumed at the rate of 10 units per second -- so he'd get 100 seconds of full power in that form. You could keep disproportionally scaling up consumption relative to total energy for each additional transformation. I guess that could work as an explanation for SSJ3, too -- energy increases enormously but the power is too high to maintain the state for more than a few minutes.
*PINHEAD* wrote:Mmm...I see what you're saying. But if that's the case, energy would mean ki, right? If transforming into Super Saiyan took up ki but increased power, how come when Son Goku transformed, his ki increased also? Man, this whole ki thing confuses my poor little mind...
Goku basically pulls energy out of thin air when he transforms -- he could have blown tons of mysterious hidden "ki" during the transformation and kept even more.

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Post by SpaceKappa » Mon Jul 19, 2004 2:35 am

This is probably just a rewording of James' theory, but numbers confuse me so I'm not too sure.

A comparison I would make would be similar to how in Zelda: Ocarina of Time you can buy upgrades for your bomb bag, each one allowing you to carry more bombs. You still use bombs up, but you have a larger bag from which to draw them.

I see Super Saiyajin as simply increasing the amount of ki the user has to draw from, but maintaining that state requires a certain amount of ki to be used. Kind of like using gas to drive to the gas station. Or something.

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Post by TripleRach » Mon Jul 19, 2004 11:14 am

To expand upon what I mentioned last night... We all know the frequent correlation between ki and power. Physical condition also seems to be a part of ki, as there are plenty of instances where someone's ki is said to be decreasing as they take damage. Dying people are also said to have a faint ki. Since SSJ is known to be strenuous on the body, this could explain why people can no longer hold up their SSJ state when they're in a great deal of pain, or unconscious.

As for energy, physical strain should logistically affect the amount of energy one has. But for anyone to be able to remain in a SSJ state at all, the strain and energy consumed must be minimal in comparison to the power increase. In the case of SSJ3, the side-effects seem to be much more prominent, which was why Gokuu could barely hold it for long.

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Post by *PINHEAD* » Mon Jul 19, 2004 1:32 pm

I think of a lightbulb, say, powered by a 9-volt battery. Then all of a sudden, someone switched the battery to a 100,000-volt battery. Obviously it would shine a lot brighter, but be under a lottle of stress and pressure and just might blow up.
That's the way a Saiyan works. It goes Super Saiyan, has a lot of power, but the body just might collapse.
...I'm looking too much into this ki thing.
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Post by Izlude » Mon Jul 19, 2004 2:16 pm

Okay here is how Ki works...

The flashier and clearer the aura, the better the ki! And an aura with lotsza lighting, that means there its very strong ki! But if the aura is crappy, like the ones in DragonBall and in early Z, it means the ki sucks.

Ya...thats how it works...
Last edited by Izlude on Mon Jul 19, 2004 2:16 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Post by Xyex » Mon Jul 19, 2004 2:16 pm

It's pretty much all been explained but I'm going to toss in my two cents anyway. It's seems to me that being in SSJ or higher is a concious effort, just like with the Kaio Ken. And for once, I agree with James about how it works, but I'll do an example anyway.

Base Goku = 50,000. In base his body uses almost the same level of energy as he consumes. (If the levels were identicle he'd never need to sleep.) So if he uses 5 energy every minute his body produces 4 per minute. Now, he needs to use, say, 100 energy, in order to 'fuel' the transformation into SSJ.

SSJ Goku = 500,000. As an SSJ he has more power, obviously. In this state his body consumes the normal 5 + the energy needed to maintain the transformation, 45. Also, he's now producing the normal 4 + extra energy, 30. So, as an SSJ he's using up 50 energy per minute and only making 34 per minute which causes a greater strain on the body.

The time he and Gohan spent in Super before the Cell Games would have adjusted them to this strain so that SSJ would consume maybe only 35-40 energy a minute. And each new level would increase the both the consumption and the production, but the former would go up faster than the latter. i.e.

SSJ2 = 5,000,000. Consumes 500, produces 70
SSJ3 = 50,000,000. Consumes 1,500 and produces 120.
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Post by Dayspring » Mon Jul 19, 2004 5:32 pm

Picture using up more of your strength than normal. When using a normal amount of strength you're not getting tired. Now use MORE than normal strength. Here you're getting tired. The more strength you use (more transformed states+how long in them), the more tired you get (using up ki faster).
For a number-free example:

Non-ssj: Walking
SSJ: Running
SSJ2: Running as fast as an Olympic Contendor
SSJ3: OMG I RAN SO FAST THAT MY EYEBROWS FELL OFF!

As you can see, running so fast that your eyebrows fall off, represented by SSJ3, uses up a shitload more energy than walking, which is represented by the non-SSJ state.

Y'see?! Just like in the manga! :P
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Post by *PINHEAD* » Mon Jul 19, 2004 8:22 pm

Thanks a lot, I sorta understand now. But then, when they go Super Saiyan, does their overall energy supply increase as well, or do they just use more energy than normal?
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Post by Dai » Mon Jul 19, 2004 8:40 pm

I don't think you can increase the amount of energy you have. They just use more of it, which, as previously mentioned, can be hard work.

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Post by *PINHEAD* » Mon Jul 19, 2004 9:29 pm

Mmmm...I always thought turning Super Saiyan increased one's energy. After Goku attacked Freeza with the Genki Dama, he was tired and had barely any energy left. He got his ass whooped by Freeza and used the remaining energy to form and throw the Genki Dama, so he was pretty weak. But when he turned Super Saiyan, he all of a sudden had a lot more energy.
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Post by Dai » Mon Jul 19, 2004 9:49 pm

His energy got pumped up again, and seeing as how it was SSJ, to a higher level. A level which requires a lot of effort to get, and therefore some stimulant to reach. The energy was already there, I suppose.

Or, I am entirely wrong. Both will do.
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Post by *PINHEAD* » Mon Jul 19, 2004 10:21 pm

I think that turning into a Super Saiyan increases their overall energy and allows more energy to be used. Saiyans in their base form have a certain limit to how much power they can have; turning Super Saiyan allows them to use more power, thus "exceeding their limits."
My idea is that there is a ki "source," and that source can be accessed to use ki. A "power level" is how much ki is usable--the ki aura. Turning Super Saiyan increases the "source" and allows more energy to be usable.

I dunno. Like Dai, I could be entirely wrong.
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Post by Dayspring » Mon Jul 19, 2004 11:54 pm

*PINHEAD* wrote:Thanks a lot, I sorta understand now. But then, when they go Super Saiyan, does their overall energy supply increase as well, or do they just use more energy than normal?
I always pictured it as drinking a kilo of coffee when you're exhausted and thirsty. You're not getting energy from the caffeine in it (or Goku from the transformation), you're just, in fact, being dehydrated at a faster rate now, but you're draining what remains of your reserves in a new and faster way that just APPEARS to give you more strength.
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Post by Spyderjsr » Tue Jul 20, 2004 12:22 am

That Coffee analogy was actually an excellent way to look at it. Crude but effective nevertheless.

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Post by Jerseymilk » Tue Jul 20, 2004 10:03 am

Did you hear that Dayspring? Spyderjsr thinks you're crude! :D
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Post by Dayspring » Tue Jul 20, 2004 10:29 am

How was THAT crude? According to the old joke, crude is when your underwear sticks to a wall. :P
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