Herms' Guide Guide (Collection of Information Awesomeness)

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Re: Herms' Guide Guide (Collection of Information Awesomenes

Post by LSSJGODSSJ4Gogeta » Fri Aug 07, 2015 4:35 pm

I really hope the GT perfect files get translated soon. it was an enticing read to see Herm's excellent translations on part 1. Plus it'd stop all those youtubers from pulling stuff out of nowhere like 'GT perfect files state SSJ4 Goku is below base Vegito". The ridiculousness of that statement is is larger then the entire south Galaxy.
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Re: Herms' Guide Guide (Collection of Information Awesomenes

Post by Herms » Fri Aug 07, 2015 6:52 pm

Eh, even if I translated the entire thing, those people could just claim I deliberately left out all the Vegetto>SS4 stuff or something. I mean, the reason I never really got around to Vol.2 was because nothing there stuck out as being interesting enough to translate in full, apart from the Nozawa interview which Julian handled anyway. I'm not sitting on any big bombshells. Ultimately no matter how much stuff gets translated there'll always be someone asking for more, and I only have so much time; I need to choose what to focus on.
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Re: Herms' Guide Guide (Collection of Information Awesomenes

Post by LSSJGODSSJ4Gogeta » Fri Aug 07, 2015 8:17 pm

Herms wrote:Eh, even if I translated the entire thing, those people could just claim I deliberately left out all the Vegetto>SS4 stuff or something. I mean, the reason I never really got around to Vol.2 was because nothing there stuck out as being interesting enough to translate in full, apart from the Nozawa interview which Julian handled anyway. I'm not sitting on any big bombshells. Ultimately no matter how much stuff gets translated there'll always be someone asking for more, and I only have so much time; I need to choose what to focus on.
Valid points. You gotta do only the stuff you wanna do,otherwise it's a like a job...that you don't even get paid for. I gotta say,as someone who spend a "LOT" of time communicating with youtube's DBZ community (the horror) I gotta say they at least(for the majority at least) find Kanzenshuu to be a 100% reliable source.

I got vol 1,2 and 3(the heroe's legacy perfect file) but I can't trust Google's translations. Google's garbage at translating. I highly recommend doing vol 2,as it's something really cool to me. All the stuff on the shadow dragons seam really interesting, but it's up to you. And thanks for translating Vol #1. That part mentioning the original planet of the saiyan make me wonder if the guys at Toei had some un-used ideas...
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Re: Herms' Guide Guide (Collection of Information Awesomenes

Post by Hitiro » Tue Aug 11, 2015 3:57 pm

LSSJGODSSJ4Gogeta wrote:I really hope the GT perfect files get translated soon. it was an enticing read to see Herm's excellent translations on part 1. Plus it'd stop all those youtubers from pulling stuff out of nowhere like 'GT perfect files state SSJ4 Goku is below base Vegito". The ridiculousness of that statement is is larger then the entire south Galaxy.
I think this is a common misconception about Vol 2 of the GT Perfect files. I myself thought it was in the GT perfect files that they compared SSJ4 Goku with Vegetto. I believe the only statement possibly referencing Vegetto in comparison to SSJ4 Goku is from the GT special anime comic which states that Super Vegetto is possibly greater than even SSJ4(in general not a specific person).

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Re: Herms' Guide Guide (Collection of Information Awesomenes

Post by LSSJGODSSJ4Gogeta » Wed Aug 12, 2015 7:38 am

Hitiro wrote:
LSSJGODSSJ4Gogeta wrote:I really hope the GT perfect files get translated soon. it was an enticing read to see Herm's excellent translations on part 1. Plus it'd stop all those youtubers from pulling stuff out of nowhere like 'GT perfect files state SSJ4 Goku is below base Vegito". The ridiculousness of that statement is is larger then the entire south Galaxy.
I think this is a common misconception about Vol 2 of the GT Perfect files. I myself thought it was in the GT perfect files that they compared SSJ4 Goku with Vegetto. I believe the only statement possibly referencing Vegetto in comparison to SSJ4 Goku is from the GT special anime comic which states that Super Vegetto is possibly greater than even SSJ4(in general not a specific person).
But even that wouldn't make sense. SSJ4 makes goku multiply his power by over 10,vgito simply doubles it s even a gt vegito as a ssj3 would get stomped on.
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Re: Herms' Guide Guide (Collection of Information Awesomenes

Post by Kamiccolo9 » Wed Aug 12, 2015 10:32 am

LSSJGODSSJ4Gogeta wrote:
Hitiro wrote:
LSSJGODSSJ4Gogeta wrote:I really hope the GT perfect files get translated soon. it was an enticing read to see Herm's excellent translations on part 1. Plus it'd stop all those youtubers from pulling stuff out of nowhere like 'GT perfect files state SSJ4 Goku is below base Vegito". The ridiculousness of that statement is is larger then the entire south Galaxy.
I think this is a common misconception about Vol 2 of the GT Perfect files. I myself thought it was in the GT perfect files that they compared SSJ4 Goku with Vegetto. I believe the only statement possibly referencing Vegetto in comparison to SSJ4 Goku is from the GT special anime comic which states that Super Vegetto is possibly greater than even SSJ4(in general not a specific person).
But even that wouldn't make sense. SSJ4 makes goku multiply his power by over 10,vgito simply doubles it s even a gt vegito as a ssj3 would get stomped on.
Where are you getting this stuff from? If the Fusion Dance does more than double the power of the fusees, why would the Potara Fusion, which is stronger, only double their power?
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Re: Herms' Guide Guide (Collection of Information Awesomenes

Post by Hitiro » Wed Aug 12, 2015 2:35 pm

LSSJGODSSJ4Gogeta wrote:But even that wouldn't make sense. SSJ4 makes goku multiply his power by over 10,vgito simply doubles it s even a gt vegito as a ssj3 would get stomped on.
It would not make any sense for the fusion dance to just double their power. Both Evil Boo and Gohan are SSJ3 tier in strength. Boohan is 2x SSJ3 tier in strength. SSJ Vegetto is stronger than a character who is 2x SSJ3 tier in strength by enough of a margin that he dominates just as a regular SSJ(Generally 25% is more than enough to dominate a weaker character). Going by simple numbers backed up by the databooks which provide us with SSJ multipliers then we have something like this:

SSJ: 50
SSJ2: 100
SSJ3: 400

Goku: 1
Vegeta: 1
Base Vegetto: 20
Boohan(Evil Boo + Gohan) 400 + 400 = 800
SSJ Vegetto: 1,000(Worked out by 25% of 800)

^Even assuming this low estimation the Potara fusion is a 10x multipler after adding Goku and Vegeta's powers together.

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Re: Herms' Guide Guide (Collection of Information Awesomenes

Post by LSSJGODSSJ4Gogeta » Wed Aug 12, 2015 5:54 pm

Hitiro wrote:
LSSJGODSSJ4Gogeta wrote:But even that wouldn't make sense. SSJ4 makes goku multiply his power by over 10,vgito simply doubles it s even a gt vegito as a ssj3 would get stomped on.
It would not make any sense for the fusion dance to just double their power. Both Evil Boo and Gohan are SSJ3 tier in strength. Boohan is 2x SSJ3 tier in strength. SSJ Vegetto is stronger than a character who is 2x SSJ3 tier in strength by enough of a margin that he dominates just as a regular SSJ(Generally 25% is more than enough to dominate a weaker character). Going by simple numbers backed up by the databooks which provide us with SSJ multipliers then we have something like this:

SSJ: 50
SSJ2: 100
SSJ3: 400

Goku: 1
Vegeta: 1
Base Vegetto: 20
Boohan(Evil Boo + Gohan) 400 + 400 = 800
SSJ Vegetto: 1,000(Worked out by 25% of 800)

^Even assuming this low estimation the Potara fusion is a 10x multipler after adding Goku and Vegeta's powers together.
I'm sorry but the potara only ADD Gou's power to vegeta's. Old kai debunked the thought the earings gave some power boost when kaioshin started over touting the earings.
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Re: Herms' Guide Guide (Collection of Information Awesomenes

Post by Kamiccolo9 » Wed Aug 12, 2015 6:19 pm

LSSJGODSSJ4Gogeta wrote:
Hitiro wrote:
LSSJGODSSJ4Gogeta wrote:But even that wouldn't make sense. SSJ4 makes goku multiply his power by over 10,vgito simply doubles it s even a gt vegito as a ssj3 would get stomped on.
It would not make any sense for the fusion dance to just double their power. Both Evil Boo and Gohan are SSJ3 tier in strength. Boohan is 2x SSJ3 tier in strength. SSJ Vegetto is stronger than a character who is 2x SSJ3 tier in strength by enough of a margin that he dominates just as a regular SSJ(Generally 25% is more than enough to dominate a weaker character). Going by simple numbers backed up by the databooks which provide us with SSJ multipliers then we have something like this:

SSJ: 50
SSJ2: 100
SSJ3: 400

Goku: 1
Vegeta: 1
Base Vegetto: 20
Boohan(Evil Boo + Gohan) 400 + 400 = 800
SSJ Vegetto: 1,000(Worked out by 25% of 800)

^Even assuming this low estimation the Potara fusion is a 10x multipler after adding Goku and Vegeta's powers together.
I'm sorry but the potara only ADD Gou's power to vegeta's. Old kai debunked the thought the earings gave some power boost when kaioshin started over touting the earings.
What are you talking about?
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Re: Herms' Guide Guide (Collection of Information Awesomenes

Post by LSSJGODSSJ4Gogeta » Wed Aug 12, 2015 6:20 pm

I'm sorry but the potara only ADD Gou's power to vegeta's. Old kai debunked the thought the earings gave some power boost when kaioshin started over touting the earings.[/quote]
What are you talking about?[/quote]

Chapter 310 of the Z manga. Read it.
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Re: Herms' Guide Guide (Collection of Information Awesomenes

Post by SSJ2FutureGohan » Wed Aug 12, 2015 6:22 pm

If SS Vegetto is SS Goku + SS Vegeta, wouldn't SS2 Goku or SS2 Vegeta be as strong as SS Vegetto?

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Re: Herms' Guide Guide (Collection of Information Awesomenes

Post by Kamiccolo9 » Wed Aug 12, 2015 6:23 pm

LSSJGODSSJ4Gogeta wrote: Chapter 310 of the Z manga. Read it.
If Potara Fusion just added their power, Super Vegetto would be weaker than Super Saiyan 3 Goku. That's obviously not the case. Regular fusion dancing is already a way larger boost than doubling power, so no, the manga doesn't remotely say what you are saying it does.
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Re: Herms' Guide Guide (Collection of Information Awesomenes

Post by LSSJGODSSJ4Gogeta » Wed Aug 12, 2015 6:26 pm

SSJ2FutureGohan wrote:If SS Vegetto is SS Goku + SS Vegeta, wouldn't SS2 Goku or SS2 Vegeta be as strong as SS Vegetto?
that's if you go by daizenshuu multipliers,which don't fit the anime at all,and it doesn't fit the manga either. Heck Toriyama's original thought f the SSJ1 multiplier was 10,not 50 and he just said fuck it ad le em call it 50.
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Re: Herms' Guide Guide (Collection of Information Awesomenes

Post by SSJ2FutureGohan » Wed Aug 12, 2015 6:28 pm

So Super Saiyan to Super Saiyan 3 is less than a 2x boost for Goku?

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Re: Herms' Guide Guide (Collection of Information Awesomenes

Post by Mystic Tien » Wed Aug 12, 2015 6:36 pm

LSSJGODSSJ4Gogeta wrote:
Valid points. You gotta do only the stuff you wanna do,otherwise it's a like a job...that you don't even get paid for. I gotta say,as someone who spend a "LOT" of time communicating with youtube's DBZ community (the horror) I gotta say they at least(for the majority at least) find Kanzenshuu to be a 100% reliable source.
None of them did in my case, and all found some random sites and (mostly) wikia to be reliable, lol. This was very hard to prove them something.
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Re: Herms' Guide Guide (Collection of Information Awesomenes

Post by LSSJGODSSJ4Gogeta » Wed Aug 12, 2015 6:55 pm

Mystic Tien wrote:
LSSJGODSSJ4Gogeta wrote:
Valid points. You gotta do only the stuff you wanna do,otherwise it's a like a job...that you don't even get paid for. I gotta say,as someone who spend a "LOT" of time communicating with youtube's DBZ community (the horror) I gotta say they at least(for the majority at least) find Kanzenshuu to be a 100% reliable source.
None of them did in my case, and all found some random sites and (mostly) wikia to be reliable, lol. This was very hard to prove them something.
Yeah youtubers think wikia (a fan site that can be edited by anyone) is reliable. I can make it say RIGHT NOW that Broly is super saiyan septillion tier and that the quote is from Toriyama and fanboys would believe it. A lot f youtubers do trust Kanzenshuu though. nforunitly hey also trust rymstyle,king of lies
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Re: Herms' Guide Guide (Collection of Information Awesomenes

Post by Hitiro » Thu Aug 13, 2015 9:05 am

LSSJGODSSJ4Gogeta wrote:
SSJ2FutureGohan wrote:If SS Vegetto is SS Goku + SS Vegeta, wouldn't SS2 Goku or SS2 Vegeta be as strong as SS Vegetto?
that's if you go by daizenshuu multipliers,which don't fit the anime at all,and it doesn't fit the manga either. Heck Toriyama's original thought f the SSJ1 multiplier was 10,not 50 and he just said fuck it ad le em call it 50.
What Akira Toriyama said was that when Goku transformed into a SSJ that he drew it as Goku being 10 times the strength he had been using up until that point. What Goku had been using up till that point was already amplified by 10x because he was actively using Kaioken x10 for most of the battle except that one instance where he used x20. Also don't forget that it is nearly 10 years after these events that this interview happened. He had likely completely forgotten about Kaioken like he completely forgot about other things. So it is understandable that he thought 50 was too much if he was picturing Kaioken x10 Goku as Base Goku after all these years.

But even if it is possible for SSJ to be less than 50. It isn't going to change the fact that a simple addition between Goku and Vegeta isn't going to make up for the difference in power of a character that is already 2x SSJ3 tier. That would make Super Vegetto, at most, equal to Boohan. Not significantly more powerful.

You also have an issue with your logic. If all these forms are weaker than the guidebooks state then Goku's gains in the 7 years leading up to the Boo arc are much less than a 2x increase. Therfore over 10 years Goku isn't going to have double his own power after 10 years. So Base Goku is still going to be below Base Vegetto. So you'd have something like this:

Goku(Cell Games): 0.8
Kid Gohan: 1
Goku(Boo Arc): 1.2

SSJ Goku(Cell Games): 8
SSJ Kid Gohan: 10
SSJ Goku(Boo Arc): 12

SSJ2 Kid Gohan: 15
SSJ2 Goku(Boo Arc): 18

^ As you can see above if the multipliers are lower then Goku would have been able to surpass Gohan's SSJ2 with just SSJ very easily. Yet that didn't happen. So either Goku's gains are really tiny, which means he wouldn't surpass Vegetto either, or Goku's gains are decent but he still won't surpass Vegetto because even a 2x increase for Goku with his gains after 7 years is still nowhere near 2x. Otherwise both him and Vegeta would have surpassed Gohan by massive amounts.

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Re: Herms' Guide Guide (Collection of Information Awesomenes

Post by Hero » Mon Sep 28, 2015 11:14 pm

Hitiro wrote:
LSSJGODSSJ4Gogeta wrote:
SSJ2FutureGohan wrote:If SS Vegetto is SS Goku + SS Vegeta, wouldn't SS2 Goku or SS2 Vegeta be as strong as SS Vegetto?
that's if you go by daizenshuu multipliers,which don't fit the anime at all,and it doesn't fit the manga either. Heck Toriyama's original thought f the SSJ1 multiplier was 10,not 50 and he just said fuck it ad le em call it 50.
What Akira Toriyama said was that when Goku transformed into a SSJ that he drew it as Goku being 10 times the strength he had been using up until that point. What Goku had been using up till that point was already amplified by 10x because he was actively using Kaioken x10 for most of the battle except that one instance where he used x20. Also don't forget that it is nearly 10 years after these events that this interview happened. He had likely completely forgotten about Kaioken like he completely forgot about other things. So it is understandable that he thought 50 was too much if he was picturing Kaioken x10 Goku as Base Goku after all these years.

But even if it is possible for SSJ to be less than 50. It isn't going to change the fact that a simple addition between Goku and Vegeta isn't going to make up for the difference in power of a character that is already 2x SSJ3 tier. That would make Super Vegetto, at most, equal to Boohan. Not significantly more powerful.

You also have an issue with your logic. If all these forms are weaker than the guidebooks state then Goku's gains in the 7 years leading up to the Boo arc are much less than a 2x increase. Therfore over 10 years Goku isn't going to have double his own power after 10 years. So Base Goku is still going to be below Base Vegetto. So you'd have something like this:

Goku(Cell Games): 0.8
Kid Gohan: 1
Goku(Boo Arc): 1.2

SSJ Goku(Cell Games): 8
SSJ Kid Gohan: 10
SSJ Goku(Boo Arc): 12

SSJ2 Kid Gohan: 15
SSJ2 Goku(Boo Arc): 18

^ As you can see above if the multipliers are lower then Goku would have been able to surpass Gohan's SSJ2 with just SSJ very easily. Yet that didn't happen. So either Goku's gains are really tiny, which means he wouldn't surpass Vegetto either, or Goku's gains are decent but he still won't surpass Vegetto because even a 2x increase for Goku with his gains after 7 years is still nowhere near 2x. Otherwise both him and Vegeta would have surpassed Gohan by massive amounts.
Also if SSJ Vegito is just SSJ Goku + SSJ Vegeta (let's make them both equal for simplicity's sake) then he would be 24.

So that means that SSJ3 has to be a ridiculously small multiplier because then you have to fit in SSJ3 Gotenks, Gohan and Buuhan.

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Re: Herms' Guide Guide (Collection of Information Awesomenes

Post by LSSJGODSSJ4Gogeta » Tue Sep 29, 2015 9:33 am

In the buu arc,especially In the anime it's shown buu is a weakling. He is only 2x the power o ssj2 gohan. 3x if you count when he ate dabura. We see gohan and gotenks and piccolo all standing no match for a shrunken goku and vegeta at ssj1's and base forms. Also the buu saga is the most inconsistent thing in dragonbal. all the plot holes of ball and GT and the first 13 films COMBINED don't add up to how weird the saga is.
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Re: Herms' Guide Guide (Collection of Information Awesomenes

Post by Teen GohanZ » Tue Sep 29, 2015 12:46 pm

Do you think you would ever considering continuing with the "Viz translation review"? It's really interesting to see how much got lost, changed or even added (like Bulma's insults in the early chapters) by Viz. I'd understand if it's too much work, I just think it's a good way for non-Japanese readers to get the true intentions behind Toriyama's writing that can't be found elsewhere.

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