Should Kid Buu > Buff Buu be added in Rumor Guide?

[LowRyder2005]

Far too often, these days, if I happen to discuss with someone about Kid Buu vs. *insert character* I get the usual "wait, but if you read the manga both Kais are stated to weaken Kid Buu... and Buff Buu is stronger than Super Buu! Ergo, Kid Buu must be stronger than Super Buu". But, is the part about Kid Buu and Buff Buu true? As most of us know, this spawns from the Viz manga translation, a fairly erroneous one which takes for granted that since Buu absorbed two people he got two souls:

"So the souls he ate tamed him".

While the original manga says:

"Yes… the heart which he gained by going so far as to lower his power through absorption… has returned once again to the way it was.

Therefore, Buu gets only "one heart" and not "souls". But what about power?
The claim is very prevalent in DBZ discussions about the Buu Saga power ratings.
Now, I'll be frank, at least when I try to analyze the narrative in the original DB manga, basing this on the original text, it always struck me as an odd interpretation. That's because I think that the intention of the narrative is abundantly clear (the only reason South Kaioshin is ever mentioned for is because of his formidable power, while the Dai Kaioshin is mentioned for his "heart" and personality).

South Kaioshin = Power.
Dai Kaioshin = Gentle heart.

"Buu gets weaker because of his gentle heart, therefore he should get weaker for the Dai Kaioshin's influence" - that's what I thought at least. The answer was, however, rather misty, and after a lot of heated discussions about people who would get legitimately offended if I argued that to me the that the strongest implication was the above, I decided to do some searching.

Digging around, I found a rather interesting piece of evidence that - at least in my case - put every doubt to rest. An excerpt from the Majin Buu bio:

"He killed the North and West Kaioshin, absorbed the South Kaioshin, and then when he took in the gentle heart of the Dai Kaioshin, his ferociousness and power were somewhat weakened."

For how I perceive things, here the dividing line is, at least, clear:

1. Majin Buu kills North and West Kaioshin. = OK.
2. Majin Buu absorbs the South Kaioshin = OK.
3. Dai Kaioshin = now power decreasess.

If anything, this means Buff Buu is actually just "somewhat stronger" than Fat Buu (suggesting that the difference between Fat Buu and Super Buu has mostly to do with ferociousness - perhaps Super Buu has access to a bigger pool of ki because of his ferocity), but this would deserve its own topic.

Spoiler:

(Which already exists:
http://www.kanzenshuu.com/forum/viewtop ... =24387)

Anyway, what do you think about the idea of putting "Kid Buu > Buff Buu" in rumors? Do you agree? Disagree? Thanks for reading.

[Truhan]

What do you mean then? That Buff Buu is stronger than Kid Buu and Super Buu at the same time? Because I have placed the last two as equal before, and it worked somehow. You may not enjoy the revelation that Evil Buu is stronger than both as well, according to my theory, but I agree that Kid Buu losing power with South Kai is suspicious. I mean, he bulked up!

[LowRyder2005]

What do you mean then? That Buff Buu is stronger than Kid Buu and Super Buu at the same time? Because I have placed the last two as equal before, and it worked somehow. You may not enjoy the revelation that Evil Buu is stronger than both as well, according to my theory, but I agree that Kid Buu losing power with South Kai is suspicious. I mean, he bulked up!

You mean the last paragraph the last paragraph, am I correct? I'm basing this on the statement that Fat Buu, according to the Daizenshuu, is only "somewhat weaker" than Buff Buu.
The implication I see as most prominent is that a "hypothetical 100% pissed Fat Buu = Super Buu", which I think is more or less suggested visually by the whole Evil Buu vs. Mr. Buu fight. We could say that Fat Buu has the raw power but he can't reach it unless he becomes Super Buu (nothing more than how Freeza can't reach 120.000.00 if he doesn't get to Fourth Form, truthfully).

But this is slightly off-topic, I'd be glad to discuss this in another thread. Here I'm just addressing the "two Kais weakening Buu is a fact stated by the manga" statement.

[Truhan]

But there's something fishy... Kid Buu can't gain power from South Kai, as implied by the Daizenshuu, if Buff Buu transformed into Kid Buu later with a power up, as implied by the manga. Don't you see the contradiction? Also, that Majin Buu bio's last paragraph obviously refers to Kid Buu.

[LowRyder2005]

But there's something fishy... Kid Buu can't gain power from South Kai, as implied by the Daizenshuu, if Buff Buu transformed into Kid Buu later with a power up, as implied by the manga. Don't you see the contradiction? Also, that Majin Buu bio's last paragraph obviously refers to Kid Buu.

I can see your point, but the only time Buu is expressively described as "powering up" is when he is transitioning from Super to Buff. Goku and Vegeta are pretty relaxed afterwards (honestly, just as if his power dropped; it could mean Buu is just suppressing himself too, but I personally reject the notion simply because Buu is supposed to have no conscience or rationality).
The Majin Buu's bio last paragraph refers to Mr. Buu, technically ("the good Buu went on to live with Mr. Satan"). Anyway, in the phrase above the databook apparently goes to considerable lenght to specify that - after the absorption - Dai Kaioshin weakened Buu, but nothing of the sort is done for the absorption of the South Kaioshin in the exact same paragraph.

Otherwise, I believe the wording would be something like:

"The original Buu absorbed the South Kaioshin and the Dai Kaioshin, weakening himself in the process."

Or...

"The original Buu absorbed the South Kaioshin, weakening himself, and then the Dai Kaioshin, becoming even weaker."

Doesn't the Daizenshuu state only that the Kai energy can't be used to revive Majin Buu? If yes, they could be fairly different concepts to me.

[LSSJGODSSJ4Gogeta]

But there's something fishy... Kid Buu can't gain power from South Kai, as implied by the Daizenshuu, if Buff Buu transformed into Kid Buu later with a power up, as implied by the manga. Don't you see the contradiction? Also, that Majin Buu bio's last paragraph obviously refers to Kid Buu.

When was that implied? Besides daizenshuu isn't known for being entirely accurate...

[LowRyder2005]

But there's something fishy... Kid Buu can't gain power from South Kai, as implied by the Daizenshuu, if Buff Buu transformed into Kid Buu later with a power up, as implied by the manga. Don't you see the contradiction? Also, that Majin Buu bio's last paragraph obviously refers to Kid Buu.

When was that implied? Besides daizenshuu isn't known for being entirely accurate...

Sorry if sound obnoxious for lingering on the semantics here, but more than a matter of accuracy, the problem of the Daiz is that a lot of what is mentioned has a hard time fitting in the manga canon. We are, technically, supposed to take the Daiz as Word of God. So yeah, we should take as true even controversial statements like "Gotenks is weaker than Vegeta before the ROSAT" and "Goten is in no way inferior to Gohan" before the latter goes Ultimate.

I think he may be referring to the fact that the Kai's energy can't be used, I don't remember. I may be wrong, of course.

But yeah, if you want to have a laugh about Daizenshuu's accuracy and retcons, look up the rest of the kanzentai archive: Majin Buu's bio is right after Bulma's who is labeled as "Mr. Brief's only child". After Jaco, you can make some interesting conclusions if you want to take it as true.

[LSSJGODSSJ4Gogeta]

But there's something fishy... Kid Buu can't gain power from South Kai, as implied by the Daizenshuu, if Buff Buu transformed into Kid Buu later with a power up, as implied by the manga. Don't you see the contradiction? Also, that Majin Buu bio's last paragraph obviously refers to Kid Buu.

When was that implied? Besides daizenshuu isn't known for being entirely accurate...

Sorry if sound obnoxious for lingering on the semantics here, but more than a matter of accuracy, the problem of the Daiz is that a lot of what is mentioned has a hard time fitting in the manga canon. We are, technically, supposed to take the Daiz as Word of God. So yeah, we should take as true even controversial statements like "Gotenks is weaker than Vegeta before the ROSAT" and "Goten is in no way inferior to Gohan" before the latter goes Ultimate.

I think he may be referring to the fact that the Kai's energy can't be used, I don't remember. I may be wrong, of course.

But yeah, if you want to have a laugh about Daizenshuu's accuracy and retcons, look up the rest of the kanzentai archive: Majin Buu's bio is right after Bulma's who is labeled as "Mr. Brief's only child". After Jaco, you can make some interesting conclusions if you want to take it as true.

Exactly. And Nappa having a battle power of 4,000? I guess that makes goku UNDER 8,000 then XD

[Truhan]

I think the solution for the problem at hand is to consider both Strength (or Power) and Ki as separate entities. So Buff Buu got more powerful, because he was bulky and stuff, like Grade II Vegeta was, costing him the Ki to fuel it. Once Buff Buu turned all that Power into Ki, he shaped his size accordingly, like Trunks would if he turned Grade III into "Full Power" SSJ (which consists of maximized Ki). In the end, Kid Buu and Buff Buu are different beasts, while Super Buu could be their Base form.

[Super Saiyan Turlast x4]

The transition to the huge Boo that absorbed the South Kaioshin in itself doesn't even make sense. Boo is growing more and more powerful, but where exactly is that power coming from?

The context seems to imply only Dai Kaioshin weakened him. He could've absorbed the South Kaioshin and gained nothing but his physique.

[smiley]

It shouldn't be in the Rumor Guide, because despite everything you list as evidence, it is still highly controversial and there are many people who disagree. For example, the anime says Kid Buu is the strongest Buu. There are people who consider the anime canon. These people, therefore, quite reasonably, believe that Kid Buu is above Buff Buu. Even if you insist on throwing the anime out of the picture, the Daizenshuu also refers to Goku and Kid Buu as the strongest characters on numerous occasions. Does this necessarily prove beyond any shadow of a reasonable doubt that Kid Buu is stronger than Gohan, and therefore, Super Buu? No. But there are people who find that convincing, and there is nothing wrong with that. From an objective standpoint, neither side has significantly more legitimate arguments than the other.

[LSSJGODSSJ4Gogeta]

It shouldn't be in the Rumor Guide, because despite everything you list as evidence, it is still highly controversial and there are many people who disagree. For example, the anime says Kid Buu is the strongest Buu. There are people who consider the anime canon. These people, therefore, quite reasonably, believe that Kid Buu is above Buff Buu. Even if you insist on throwing the anime out of the picture, the Daizenshuu also refers to Goku and Kid Buu as the strongest characters on numerous occasions. Does this necessarily prove beyond any shadow of a reasonable doubt that Kid Buu is stronger than Gohan, and therefore, Super Buu? No. But there are people who find that convincing, and there is nothing wrong with that. From an objective standpoint, neither side has significantly more legitimate arguments than the other.

Agreed. I think kid buu is the strongest buu besides uub,however with how unclear the buu saga is, idon't think we can really say it's a rumor kid buu is stronge,rnor could we say him being weaker is a rumor. People don't debate over imperfect cell vs semi perfect cell,but kid buu vs super buu forms and then mr,evil,fat, buus and uub all of it power ranking wise tends to differ with people, because you have goku saying he is below super buu, but beats fat buu, the equal to super buu, he then states he's above gohan later, vegeta doesn't argue super buu> goku but he states goku>super buu and gohan later on. It's so inconsistent. So to be on topic, no. No it shouldn't be in the rumor guides, because buu saga power levels are borderline subjective.

[Darkprince410]

People don't debate over imperfect cell vs semi perfect cell,but kid buu vs super buu forms and then mr,evil,fat, buus and uub all of it power ranking wise tends to differ with people, because you have goku saying he is below super buu, but beats fat buu, the equal to super buu, he then states he's above gohan later, vegeta doesn't argue super buu> goku but he states goku>super buu and gohan later on. It's so inconsistent. So to be on topic, no. No it shouldn't be in the rumor guides, because buu saga power levels are borderline subjective.

None of those points you mentioned actually happened though. Fat Buu is confirmed by Piccolo to be a good deal weaker than Evil Buu ("Super" Buu), never states that Goku is above Evil Buu or Gohan, and neither does Goku say that he's above Gohan either.

People don't argue which Cell is stronger because there's not filler content contradicting Toriyama's story on the matter. With the Buu Saga, there's so much contradictory content that it's not surprising in the least that people would be confused about some things.

[Truhan]

I really think we should go the way of Power and Ki being different pros against the characters' cons. So what if Buff Buu was more poweful than Super Buu? He's bulky after all, but his Ki must have taken a hit, as if Kid Buu willingly chose to become more powerful in that filler scene, to tackle Kaioshin. I'm only basing this on a comparison to SSJ Grade II, and if we consider the mastered version of SSJ to have maximized Ki, then Kid Buu could be like it. In essence, Super Buu would be as powerful as Kid Buu, but not have the same Ki pool, which he would have to charge through anger. Here's a rundown of his absorptions, power and ki changes:

Kid Buu absorbs South Kai and turns Power on with Ki loss. He has turned into Buff Buu.
Buff Buu absorbs Dai Kai and his Power is gimped, being free to restore his Ki as Fat Buu (i.e. let go of South Kai).
After Super Buu is formed, he taps onto South Kaioshin's power through Evil Buu, while Good Buu keeps him in check.
Good Buu is removed from Super Buu, turning him into Buff Buu first, and then Kid Buu, with the latter restoring his Ki by Powering down.

[Super Saiyan Turlast x4]

None of those points you mentioned actually happened though. Fat Buu is confirmed by Piccolo to be a good deal weaker than Evil Buu ("Super" Buu), never states that Goku is above Evil Buu or Gohan, and neither does Goku say that he's above Gohan either.

Could you tell me when Piccolo says Fat Boo is much weaker than Super Boo?

[LowRyder2005]

It shouldn't be in the Rumor Guide, because despite everything you list as evidence, it is still highly controversial and there are many people who disagree. For example, the anime says Kid Buu is the strongest Buu. There are people who consider the anime canon. These people, therefore, quite reasonably, believe that Kid Buu is above Buff Buu. Even if you insist on throwing the anime out of the picture, the Daizenshuu also refers to Goku and Kid Buu as the strongest characters on numerous occasions. Does this necessarily prove beyond any shadow of a reasonable doubt that Kid Buu is stronger than Gohan, and therefore, Super Buu? No. But there are people who find that convincing, and there is nothing wrong with that. From an objective standpoint, neither side has significantly more legitimate arguments than the other.

While I do agree with the Super vs. Kid debate lacking a final saying, even though there's more and more substantial evidence is favor of the first, I'm not addressing Super vs. Kid or Goku vs. Gohan entirely here, I'm addressing one particular argument used rather often in this kind of debates: "Kid Buu was weakened by both Kais" or "Kid Buu is the strongest form", which the quote above disproves, or, at very least confirms its status as a "rumor" (even in the anime, Goku never fights with Buff Buu, so - while saying that Kid Buu "speed and power" impress him more than all the other Buus, he could hardly judge Buff's "speed", for example). Strictly speaking the condition of having Kid weaker than Buff is hardly conclusive on Super Buu vs. Kid Buu in itself.

Then again, I'd like to know more about the numerous times Daizenshuu is referring to Goku and Kid Buu as the strongest: not only there is just one instance I'm aware of, but it doesn't even directly mention Kid Buu, just that "Goku defeated Majin Buu, the strongest being in the universe", which to me is rather vague since, all things considered and pertaining to the manga and the other Daizenshuu quotes, I'm much more inclined to see them referring to a collective "pastiche" of all the evil Buus (which, in turn, gives him the title of strongest being in the universe with his ability to get more powerful).

I can see Kid Buu as possibly equal to Buff Buu but smaller in size, that's probably the only legitimate (if ever so slightly far-fetched) leeway, but still, the Daizenshuu disregards the idea that the South Kaioshin weakened the original Buu - as if the original manga narrative didn't, at least, purposefully lead the reader to believe the same.

[smiley]

While I do agree with the Super vs. Kid debate lacking a final saying, even though there's more and more substantial evidence is favor of the first, I'm not addressing Super vs. Kid or Goku vs. Gohan entirely here, I'm addressing one particular argument used rather often in this kind of debates: "Kid Buu was weakened by both Kais" or "Kid Buu is the strongest form", which the quote above disproves, or, at very least confirms its status as a "rumor". Strictly speaking the condition of having Buff Buu weaker than Huge Buu is hardly conclusive on Super Buu vs. Kid Buu in itself.

The anime refers to Kid Buu as the strongest Buu, as does every DBZ video game ever made. You may not consider that canonical, but there are people who do. So there is nothing conclusive here either.

Then again, I'd like to know about the numerous times Daizenshuu referring to Goku and Kid Buu as the strongest: not only there is only one instance I'm aware of, but it doesn't even directly mention Kid Buu, just that "Goku defeated Majin Buu, the strongest being in the universe", which to me is rather vague since, all things considered and pertaining to the manga and the other Daizenshuu quotes, refer to a collective "pastiche" of all the evil Buus (which, in turn gives him the title of strongest being in the universe with his ability to get more powerful).

I know that you have your own interpretation of the statements, and that's fine, but some people interpret them the way I suggested, and that interpretation is no less legitimate than yours.

(1) "Goku's feelings are only understood by his fellow strongest." - With reference to Kid Buu

(2) Q: Out of all your characters, which one is the most cool?
"A: I think it's Goku." The always pure strongest in the universe. Goku is #1 after all!

(3)" Goku fought with the revived Boo. Goku tried to have the next generation resolve this problem, but in the end he was the one who defeated Boo, the strongest in the universe, after being resurrected by receiving the life of the Dai-Kaioshin."

Then there's that interiview where Toriyama says that it was through mastering ki that Goku became the "strongest in the universe". Then there's two or three statements in Dragon Ball Super that refer to Goku as the strongest character, and this was right after the battle with Buu (if I'm not mistaken).

[LowRyder2005]

None of those points you mentioned actually happened though. Fat Buu is confirmed by Piccolo to be a good deal weaker than Evil Buu ("Super" Buu), never states that Goku is above Evil Buu or Gohan, and neither does Goku say that he's above Gohan either.

Could you tell me when Piccolo says Fat Boo is much weaker than Super Boo?

Actually, as far as I know he doesn't (in the manga, at least). He only mentions that Super Buu's body is better for fighting. The one who does it is Vegeta, moments before removing the Fat Buu pod. "Will you turn back to the Fat Buu or the skinny Buu? In both cases, you'll be weaker". I just reworded it, but yeah, he specifically states that the Fat Buu is inferior to Super Buu.

Still, trying to make sense of the Daizenshuu quote, I think Fat Buu could have the "raw power" to match Super Buu but just can't access it because of some sort of psyche-lock-like (see Phoenix Wright) shenanigans. He is just "somewhat weaker" than Buff Buu, after all.

[LowRyder2005]

While I do agree with the Super vs. Kid debate lacking a final saying, even though there's more and more substantial evidence is favor of the first, I'm not addressing Super vs. Kid or Goku vs. Gohan entirely here, I'm addressing one particular argument used rather often in this kind of debates: "Kid Buu was weakened by both Kais" or "Kid Buu is the strongest form", which the quote above disproves, or, at very least confirms its status as a "rumor". Strictly speaking the condition of having Buff Buu weaker than Huge Buu is hardly conclusive on Super Buu vs. Kid Buu in itself.

The anime refers to Kid Buu as the strongest Buu, as does every DBZ video game ever made. You may not consider that canonical, but there are people who do. So there is nothing conclusive here either.

Then again, I'd like to know about the numerous times Daizenshuu referring to Goku and Kid Buu as the strongest: not only there is only one instance I'm aware of, but it doesn't even directly mention Kid Buu, just that "Goku defeated Majin Buu, the strongest being in the universe", which to me is rather vague since, all things considered and pertaining to the manga and the other Daizenshuu quotes, refer to a collective "pastiche" of all the evil Buus (which, in turn gives him the title of strongest being in the universe with his ability to get more powerful).

I know that you have your own interpretation of the statements, and that's fine, but some people interpret them the way I suggested, and that interpretation is no less legitimate than yours.

(1) "Goku's feelings are only understood by his fellow strongest." - With reference to Kid Buu

(2) Q: Out of all your characters, which one is the most cool?
"A: I think it's Goku." The always pure strongest in the universe. Goku is #1 after all!

(3)" Goku fought with the revived Boo. Goku tried to have the next generation resolve this problem, but in the end he was the one who defeated Boo, the strongest in the universe, after being resurrected by receiving the life of the Dai-Kaioshin."

Then there's that interiview where Toriyama says that it was through mastering ki that Goku became the "strongest in the universe". Then there's two or three statements in Dragon Ball Super that refer to Goku as the strongest character, and this was right after the battle with Buu (if I'm not mistaken). You may not consider that canon, but there are people who do.

Some clarifications here too:

- It's a common misinterpretation that Dragon Ball Super takes place immediately after. First episode is six months after the Buu Saga. Afterwards, there is a second time-skip without a clear date.
- Moreover, an even bigger debate could be opened about Vegeta knowing Ultimate Gohan's power output, not a single panel shows him witnessing Gohan's power in the manga and it's heavily implied that he is drawing a blank starting some time before Gotenks is absorbed (when Goku mentions that Buu absorbed Trunks he's in shock, and then immediately changes idea about merging with his rival).

The second one is not from Toriyama, it's a comment added by the interviewer in an interview with Toriyama - which happens after we are shown EoZ Goku in the manga, anyway, not during the Buu Saga.
Regarding the third one I already expressed my feelings. The only one I can possibly see confirming Goku is the strongest, but it's not indicative of Gohan, anyway. It could just mean "people in the strongest group" which may or may not include Gohan, or even Gotenks too. After all, Goku and Buu are not equal, either you have to pick Goku as more powerful (but unable to reach his maximum output) or weaker than Buu (if not at 100% Kid Buu beats him, after all, because of the stamina drop).

But bottom line, yes, you are indeed right. Even the above are simple interpretations and someone may beg to differ of course.

EDIT: Regarding the anime "proving" that Kid Buu is the strongest: like I said, Kid Buu's power is only referenced by Goku with his "your speed and power are on a level beyond any other Buu". While this spells out "Kid Buu is the strongest" in the anime - which I myself believe - it's only Goku's point-of-view (and, since he never sees Buff Buu's SPEED for one, that should be enough to make everyone believe Goku is not counting him): the Daizenshuu is the equivalent of an omniscient narrator, and it never confirms anything like the South Kaioshin weakening Kid Buu. If anything, and that's being generous, Buff Buu is as strong as Kid Buu and they're both the strongest forms. But yeah, this is an opinion too, the Daizenshuu may be referring only to the manga or both anime and manga, for one.

I don't know about the video games.

[Hitiro]

Actually, as far as I know he doesn't (in the manga, at least). He only mentions that Super Buu's body is better for fighting. The one who does it is Vegeta, moments before removing the Fat Buu pod. "Will you turn back to the Fat Buu or the skinny Buu? In both cases, you'll be weaker". I just reworded it, but yeah, he specifically states that the Fat Buu is inferior to Super Buu.

Still, trying to make sense of the Daizenshuu quote, I think Fat Buu could have the "raw power" to match Super Buu but just can't access it because of some sort of psyche-lock-like (see Phoenix Wright) shenanigans. He is just "somewhat weaker" than Buff Buu, after all.

Actually Piccolo says this Boo is superior in every way.

Chapter: 488 (DBZ 294), P5.5-6
Trunks: “Huh!? That’s Majin Boo!?”
Goten: “He-he really has changed…”
Piccolo: “It’s not just his appearance…Everything about him is definitely greater than before…”