So how exactly do these God forms work?

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Xeztin
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So how exactly do these God forms work?

Post by Xeztin » Mon Jan 04, 2016 5:20 am

At first I believed that Goku assorbed God ki which made his base form "Saiyan beyond god" and after he trained with the ki and went SSJ he became a Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan. Now I believe in the recent episodes of Super unless it was a mistranslation that you attain SSG with help, and SSGSS on your own which turns out to be stronger which explains how Vegeta got the form. This is where it gets confusing... Goku assorbed the God ki from his fight with Beerus right? Why would he need to train to become a god on his own when he already has the ki? Also if Vegeta attained it all on his own without turning into the red SSG then why was it named SSGSS? Wouldn't it have made more sense to just name it SSJ4 or SSJB like in the manga since Vegeta didn't need the Red SSG to attain it? Also what does that make Vegetas base? Does "Saiyan beyond god" even exist in the first place? I used to think SSJ1-3 names where to simple but now i miss it as this god stuff is to confusing. The only way I can make sense of it is Goku passed on Godly Ki to Vegeta during training and he asorbed it, both becoming "Saiyan beyond gods". Then they fight until they master the ki and gain the power of SSJB when they go SSJ. Hopefully you guys have better explanations :D

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Re: So how exactly do these God forms work?

Post by Darkprince410 » Mon Jan 04, 2016 7:55 am

The only way I can make sense of it is Goku passed on Godly Ki to Vegeta during training and he asorbed it, both becoming "Saiyan beyond gods".
What seems to be the case though is that, at least for Saiya-jin, there are two ways to obtain that kind of god ki. One can either go the simpler method and undergo the Super Saiya-jin God ritual, or one can go Vegeta's route and essentially brute force his way into that strength. Vegeta, given dialogue stated, somehow simply just trained fiercely enough to reach the general threshold of god power (as seen when he's shown first sensing Whis' ki) and then is confirmed later when Whis first brings Goku to Beerus's palace (in which the Oracle Fish confirmed that Vegeta could sense god ki, and Goku indicated Vegeta might be stronger than he is).

They both reached the "Saiya-jin Beyond God" state, but through different methods.

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Re: So how exactly do these God forms work?

Post by dbgtFO » Mon Jan 04, 2016 8:32 am

You need to train very hard in base form and eventually obtain God Ki and then you'll eventually transform to SSGSS or you can use the shortcut of 5 Saiyans pouring their heart into you to obtain SSG, evidently the incomplete version of SSGSS and then train very hard and learn to understand that power on your own and eventually obtain SSGSS.

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Re: So how exactly do these God forms work?

Post by Polyphase Avatron » Mon Jan 04, 2016 1:15 pm

I think you need specialized training from Whis or someone else who knows the right training methods, just training in a normal way won't do it.
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Re: So how exactly do these God forms work?

Post by KentalSSJ6 » Mon Jan 04, 2016 5:10 pm

SSGSS isnt normally possible as SSJG was a timed form. Goku was the first to actually absorb the power into himself instead of losing it when the form initially wore off due to being a fighting genius and in doing so basically defied the SSJG time limit and made its power permanent. SSGSS is just bringing out that power with SSJ being the key. SSGSS is basically a invention of Goku and Vegeta as they learned to tap into SSJG on their own using Super Saiyan.
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Re: So how exactly do these God forms work?

Post by Herms » Mon Jan 04, 2016 6:07 pm

In Houshin Engi there's this Super Saiyan-esque form where you absorb energy from other characters and the environment and use it as your own. And it has blue hair. This got me thinking that maybe SSG and SSGSS work along similar lines.

With SSG, you're supposed to need to absorb energy from five other Saiyans to make it. There's a lot of talk about it being a form that Goku couldn't have reached without the help of others. Then with SSGSS, this requirement is no longer mentioned. In RF it's never explained if Vegeta ever needed to bother with the fancy ritual, and Super seems fairly explicit in showing that he didn't. Likewise, in Super when Goku goes SSGSS, Kaio is amazed he can do that without help from others. Also, with SSG the number of pure-hearted Saiyans that helps out seems to be the key factor, rather than the strength of the Saiyans in question. Goku takes energy from Gohan+Goten+Vegeta+Trunks and gets stronger, but it's still peanuts compared to SSG proper. But add Pan, who's still just a fetus, into the mix and suddenly you've got SSG.

So, crazy theory: SSG and SSGSS both work by taking ki from other characters and the surrounding environment and using it as your own. Basically, an improved version of whatever the hell Goku does in DBZ movie 7. After all, the Genki-Dama works on this very principle of combing ki from here and there to create one super-powerful attack. It seems well-established that no matter how powerful a baddie may be, they can still be defeated if you charge up a big enough Genki-Dama. The total power spread throughout the entire universe will always be superior to an individual. So the secret to the power of SSG and SSGSS (I theorize) is that it dips into this huge amount of background power, in such a way that the character can utilize that power continuously rather than in one big attack that takes forever to charge. Presumably Beerus and Whis owe their power to the same principle (or maybe not).

Under this logic, the reason for the five Saiyans ritual is that it somehow "pries open" the barrier between Goku and the ki in the surrounding environment. Absorbing energy from one pure-hearted Saiyan pushes upon this metaphorical floodgate a little bit, two Saiyans a bit more, and then for whatever reason five is the magic number that throws it open all the way. That's why it doesn't matter if the fifth Saiyan is a fetus or not, because their power isn't actually what's important. Rather, the key thing is the act of opening yourself up to the energy of five separate Saiyans. Presumably, the sort of energy-sharing involved in this ritual is more intimate than the energy-sharing involved in making the Genki-Dama, or differs in some other way that prevents Goku from getting red or blue hair when defeating Boo. Perhaps it's because it's between six members of the same species who are therefore more naturally in=tune. And perhaps that's why being "pure-hearted" is important too; pure-hearted people are likewise more in-tune with each other (and on that note, being "pure-hearted" is supposed to be necessary for using the Genki-Dama, at least in DBZ movie 7).

In that sense, the five pure-hearted Saiyans are like a wedge, to pry the door open. Or something. Similar enough to Goku that it's easy for him to open himself up to their energy, but opening himself up to that many other people causes him to reach some sort of critical mass where he's now able to open himself up to everything (or at least, a lot more of the surrounding environment than before) and use all that background energy as his own.

This might also explain why a god's ki cannot be sensed. We're told that in the DB universe pretty much everything has ki. Grass, rocks, stars, all living things. Sensing a specific person's ki must therefore be a matter of picking it out from the "background ki" that pervades everywhere. But (under this theory) when Goku becomes SSG, he starts using that "background ki" as his own, and therefore his specific ki signature blends into the surrounding ki, from the perspective of conventional ki-sensors. Gods though can sense other gods presumably due to their first-hand experience with these techniques, like ninjas spotting other ninjas. We might also assume that different characters are still only able to "open themselves" up and utilize background ki to different degrees, which is why SSG Goku is not automatically as strong as Beerus, and why lesser gods like Dende can sense Beerus' ki while still not being super-powerful themselves. That is, they're familiar with these techniques, but unable to utilize them, at least not on the same scale, just as Kaio can teach Goku the Kaio-ken even though he can't use it himself.

OK, so what about SSGSS? Like I said, under this theory the SSG ritual is just a wedge for opening a Saiyan up to the ki in the surrounding environment, a handy stepping stone which might be replaced by some other type of stepping stone, or skipped entirely if someone's naturally good enough. In Super, Whis talks about how Vegeta needs to learn a new way of "controlling his ki" if he's to get stronger. Under this theory, the ki-controlling method Whis is talking about is this way of utilizing ki in the surrounding environment. Therefore, Vegeta's training with Whis eliminates the need for him to bother holding hands with everyone, because Whis happens to know other ways of achieving the same effect. And once Goku likewise trains with Whis, he then no longer needs to borrow power directly from other Saiyans (as Kaio seemed to assume he would). Technically though, Goku and Vegeta are still utilizing ki other than their own whenever they become SSGSS, only in a more subtle way than holding hands with Gohan/Goten/Trunks and absorbing their power directly. Also, from a certain perspective they're really just expanding their notion of what counts as "their" ki, so in that sense it's not too different from any other power-up.

Anyway, this is all just a crazy theory I came up with. If the Genki-Dama pops up sometime down the road in Super, it may very well end up disproving everything I've said here.
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Re: So how exactly do these God forms work?

Post by Super Saiyan Turlast x4 » Mon Jan 04, 2016 6:42 pm

That theory is awesome, Herms.
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Re: So how exactly do these God forms work?

Post by Xeztin » Tue Jan 05, 2016 1:02 am

Wow, you've just blown my mind Herms! I hope this theory turns out to be true as it is simply awesome and It's entirely better than saying Goku passed Vegeta Ki and now they are both automatically Gods which is lazy to me. If that is going to be their explanation then they should have just had Vegeta go through the ritual too and cut this ki passing nonsense. Heck if Goku passed it onto Vegeta accidentally why couldn't he pass it to the enemy Saiyan from U6 accidentally too? (Which would cause major problems)

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Re: So how exactly do these God forms work?

Post by dragonballer » Tue Jan 05, 2016 2:20 pm

Herms wrote:In Houshin Engi there's this Super Saiyan-esque form where you absorb energy from other characters and the environment and use it as your own. And it has blue hair. This got me thinking that maybe SSG and SSGSS work along similar lines...

<SNIP>

Anyway, this is all just a crazy theory I came up with. If the Genki-Dama pops up sometime down the road in Super, it may very well end up disproving everything I've said here.
Good theory. That also explains why ssgss 2 and 3 are impractical,since they are using the ssj form as a key to access the universal power,it would be a waste of ki to use advanced ssj forms and wouldn't make them stronger.

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Re: So how exactly do these God forms work?

Post by GodVegetto91 » Wed Jan 06, 2016 1:13 pm

So going by this new theory they have the power of an entire Spirit Bomb.. Maybe even a universal one. And unlike the Genki Dama they have an unlimited amount of access to that power and completely made it their own. Well it doesn't surprise me. This would also explain how SSJG Goku and Beerus are so extraordinarily and terrifyingly powerful and have no problem taking someone out of commission and completely rendering them unconcious with only as much of 1% of their power.
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Re: So how exactly do these God forms work?

Post by buutenks » Wed Jan 06, 2016 4:40 pm

Whis states,that vegeta training by himself would never ever reach the level of a god.He could only do so with the help of whis' training.

So unless you have whis at your disposal to train you,your only option is the ritual.

Also very good theory,i like it ^^

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Re: So how exactly do these God forms work?

Post by Lord Beerus » Wed Jan 06, 2016 8:12 pm

Herms wrote:<Nifty "drawing power from the universe" theory>
Until we get new information, this is my official theory.

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Re: So how exactly do these God forms work?

Post by Skar » Thu Jan 07, 2016 6:11 pm

Herms wrote:In Houshin Engi there's this Super Saiyan-esque form where you absorb energy from other characters and the environment and use it as your own. And it has blue hair. This got me thinking that maybe SSG and SSGSS work along similar lines.
Nice theory Mr. Herms. I hope this ends up being close to the official explanation if one is ever given.

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Re: So how exactly do these God forms work?

Post by Kaboom » Thu Jan 07, 2016 11:44 pm

Another bonus of Herms' theory is that it could explain why Goku and Beerus' clash of god-ki was doing damage across the universe like it was.
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Re: So how exactly do these God forms work?

Post by Xeztin » Fri Jan 08, 2016 12:52 am

That's a good way of thinking Kaboom, If this idea turned out to be true couldn't anyone learn this technique? Not necessarily SSJB but basically using the energy of your surroundings and storing it in your body rather than into a Spirit Bomb. Unless you have Super Saiyan I'd be willing to argue that it'd be a weaker form then SSJB. It may be a way to make the cast relevant again, and still keep Goku and Vegeta on top. The rest of the cast wouldn't necessarily be "Gods" but they could more or less be up to snuff with them while keeping distance to make it realistic.

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