"Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

[phattangent]

Until proven otherwise, I like to think Majin Pooh comes from a version of the Hundred Acres Wood where everyone studies martial arts under martial arts master Christopher Robin.

LOL If only Toriyama had the guts to put that in.

Man, Piglet would be like, the scariest mofo in the series.

I'd like to think our new nipple guy is how Majin Poo pictures Piglet.

[brellawishes]

You know all that thing about this tournament make me hyped, but I wonder... Will we have a bigger tournament in the future? With fighters and Hakaishins from the other universes?

It would be a blessing in the skies if Toriyama included a Multiverse tournament of every other God of Destruction after their introductions. Sounds too fanfic, I know.

[phattangent]

It would be a blessing in the skies if Toriyama included a Multiverse tournament of every other God of Destruction after their introductions. Sounds too fanfic, I know.

Now that Goku and Vegeta are the new Lords of Destruction...

let us finally determine who is the better!

I don't know, have you gotten any stronger? I don't want the residual energy to tear up the multiverse.

[Note: Goku only knows the word, "residual," because the author has no other way to explain the term in a single word.]

Whis, do it now...

I'm guaranteed that parfait?

Yes!

[Whis sighs and uses his staff to place them in, "that place," again, similar to the room of spirit and time.]

Let's go!

[Basaku]

You know all that thing about this tournament make me hyped, but I wonder... Will we have a bigger tournament in the future? With fighters and Hakaishins from the other universes?

I hope not. Too same-y IMO. If they're gonna do another major tournament it should be something fresh

[Swifticuffs]

Hello everyone, first post here but I've enjoyed lurking and seeing the translation work and summaries here in advance. Many thanks to those who work on that, as sometimes it's difficult having the visuals from Korean/Japanese leaks and just craving to know what's been said.

A shame we did not get an explanation of how Vegeta raised to God level ki, and also a shame the retcon went the way of SSB instead of just Saiyan God and Super Saiyan God, but eh... the manga's been the best so far. Manga > Movies > Super so far, but I've been happy with all three.

Perhaps I'm easy to please? Lifelong DB fan since a kid, so probably.

Cheers,

Swifticuffs

[Xeztin]

Herms has an amazing theory about the God forms in general including how Vegeta got his

In Houshin Engi there's this Super Saiyan-esque form where you absorb energy from other characters and the environment and use it as your own. And it has blue hair. This got me thinking that maybe SSG and SSGSS work along similar lines.

With SSG, you're supposed to need to absorb energy from five other Saiyans to make it. There's a lot of talk about it being a form that Goku couldn't have reached without the help of others. Then with SSGSS, this requirement is no longer mentioned. In RF it's never explained if Vegeta ever needed to bother with the fancy ritual, and Super seems fairly explicit in showing that he didn't. Likewise, in Super when Goku goes SSGSS, Kaio is amazed he can do that without help from others. Also, with SSG the number of pure-hearted Saiyans that helps out seems to be the key factor, rather than the strength of the Saiyans in question. Goku takes energy from Gohan+Goten+Vegeta+Trunks and gets stronger, but it's still peanuts compared to SSG proper. But add Pan, who's still just a fetus, into the mix and suddenly you've got SSG.

So, crazy theory: SSG and SSGSS both work by taking ki from other characters and the surrounding environment and using it as your own. Basically, an improved version of whatever the hell Goku does in DBZ movie 7. After all, the Genki-Dama works on this very principle of combing ki from here and there to create one super-powerful attack. It seems well-established that no matter how powerful a baddie may be, they can still be defeated if you charge up a big enough Genki-Dama. The total power spread throughout the entire universe will always be superior to an individual. So the secret to the power of SSG and SSGSS (I theorize) is that it dips into this huge amount of background power, in such a way that the character can utilize that power continuously rather than in one big attack that takes forever to charge. Presumably Beerus and Whis owe their power to the same principle (or maybe not).

Under this logic, the reason for the five Saiyans ritual is that it somehow "pries open" the barrier between Goku and the ki in the surrounding environment. Absorbing energy from one pure-hearted Saiyan pushes upon this metaphorical floodgate a little bit, two Saiyans a bit more, and then for whatever reason five is the magic number that throws it open all the way. That's why it doesn't matter if the fifth Saiyan is a fetus or not, because their power isn't actually what's important. Rather, the key thing is the act of opening yourself up to the energy of five separate Saiyans. Presumably, the sort of energy-sharing involved in this ritual is more intimate than the energy-sharing involved in making the Genki-Dama, or differs in some other way that prevents Goku from getting red or blue hair when defeating Boo. Perhaps it's because it's between six members of the same species who are therefore more naturally in=tune. And perhaps that's why being "pure-hearted" is important too; pure-hearted people are likewise more in-tune with each other (and on that note, being "pure-hearted" is supposed to be necessary for using the Genki-Dama, at least in DBZ movie 7).

In that sense, the five pure-hearted Saiyans are like a wedge, to pry the door open. Or something. Similar enough to Goku that it's easy for him to open himself up to their energy, but opening himself up to that many other people causes him to reach some sort of critical mass where he's now able to open himself up to everything (or at least, a lot more of the surrounding environment than before) and use all that background energy as his own.

This might also explain why a god's ki cannot be sensed. We're told that in the DB universe pretty much everything has ki. Grass, rocks, stars, all living things. Sensing a specific person's ki must therefore be a matter of picking it out from the "background ki" that pervades everywhere. But (under this theory) when Goku becomes SSG, he starts using that "background ki" as his own, and therefore his specific ki signature blends into the surrounding ki, from the perspective of conventional ki-sensors. Gods though can sense other gods presumably due to their first-hand experience with these techniques, like ninjas spotting other ninjas. We might also assume that different characters are still only able to "open themselves" up and utilize background ki to different degrees, which is why SSG Goku is not automatically as strong as Beerus, and why lesser gods like Dende can sense Beerus' ki while still not being super-powerful themselves. That is, they're familiar with these techniques, but unable to utilize them, at least not on the same scale, just as Kaio can teach Goku the Kaio-ken even though he can't use it himself.

OK, so what about SSGSS? Like I said, under this theory the SSG ritual is just a wedge for opening a Saiyan up to the ki in the surrounding environment, a handy stepping stone which might be replaced by some other type of stepping stone, or skipped entirely if someone's naturally good enough. In Super, Whis talks about how Vegeta needs to learn a new way of "controlling his ki" if he's to get stronger. Under this theory, the ki-controlling method Whis is talking about is this way of utilizing ki in the surrounding environment. Therefore, Vegeta's training with Whis eliminates the need for him to bother holding hands with everyone, because Whis happens to know other ways of achieving the same effect. And once Goku likewise trains with Whis, he then no longer needs to borrow power directly from other Saiyans (as Kaio seemed to assume he would). Technically though, Goku and Vegeta are still utilizing ki other than their own whenever they become SSGSS, only in a more subtle way than holding hands with Gohan/Goten/Trunks and absorbing their power directly. Also, from a certain perspective they're really just expanding their notion of what counts as "their" ki, so in that sense it's not too different from any other power-up.

Anyway, this is all just a crazy theory I came up with. If the Genki-Dama pops up sometime down the road in Super, it may very well end up disproving everything I've said here.

[GodVegetto91]

Herms has an amazing theory about the God forms in general including how Vegeta got his

Spoiler:

In Houshin Engi there's this Super Saiyan-esque form where you absorb energy from other characters and the environment and use it as your own. And it has blue hair. This got me thinking that maybe SSG and SSGSS work along similar lines.

With SSG, you're supposed to need to absorb energy from five other Saiyans to make it. There's a lot of talk about it being a form that Goku couldn't have reached without the help of others. Then with SSGSS, this requirement is no longer mentioned. In RF it's never explained if Vegeta ever needed to bother with the fancy ritual, and Super seems fairly explicit in showing that he didn't. Likewise, in Super when Goku goes SSGSS, Kaio is amazed he can do that without help from others. Also, with SSG the number of pure-hearted Saiyans that helps out seems to be the key factor, rather than the strength of the Saiyans in question. Goku takes energy from Gohan+Goten+Vegeta+Trunks and gets stronger, but it's still peanuts compared to SSG proper. But add Pan, who's still just a fetus, into the mix and suddenly you've got SSG.

So, crazy theory: SSG and SSGSS both work by taking ki from other characters and the surrounding environment and using it as your own. Basically, an improved version of whatever the hell Goku does in DBZ movie 7. After all, the Genki-Dama works on this very principle of combing ki from here and there to create one super-powerful attack. It seems well-established that no matter how powerful a baddie may be, they can still be defeated if you charge up a big enough Genki-Dama. The total power spread throughout the entire universe will always be superior to an individual. So the secret to the power of SSG and SSGSS (I theorize) is that it dips into this huge amount of background power, in such a way that the character can utilize that power continuously rather than in one big attack that takes forever to charge. Presumably Beerus and Whis owe their power to the same principle (or maybe not).

Under this logic, the reason for the five Saiyans ritual is that it somehow "pries open" the barrier between Goku and the ki in the surrounding environment. Absorbing energy from one pure-hearted Saiyan pushes upon this metaphorical floodgate a little bit, two Saiyans a bit more, and then for whatever reason five is the magic number that throws it open all the way. That's why it doesn't matter if the fifth Saiyan is a fetus or not, because their power isn't actually what's important. Rather, the key thing is the act of opening yourself up to the energy of five separate Saiyans. Presumably, the sort of energy-sharing involved in this ritual is more intimate than the energy-sharing involved in making the Genki-Dama, or differs in some other way that prevents Goku from getting red or blue hair when defeating Boo. Perhaps it's because it's between six members of the same species who are therefore more naturally in=tune. And perhaps that's why being "pure-hearted" is important too; pure-hearted people are likewise more in-tune with each other (and on that note, being "pure-hearted" is supposed to be necessary for using the Genki-Dama, at least in DBZ movie 7).

In that sense, the five pure-hearted Saiyans are like a wedge, to pry the door open. Or something. Similar enough to Goku that it's easy for him to open himself up to their energy, but opening himself up to that many other people causes him to reach some sort of critical mass where he's now able to open himself up to everything (or at least, a lot more of the surrounding environment than before) and use all that background energy as his own.

This might also explain why a god's ki cannot be sensed. We're told that in the DB universe pretty much everything has ki. Grass, rocks, stars, all living things. Sensing a specific person's ki must therefore be a matter of picking it out from the "background ki" that pervades everywhere. But (under this theory) when Goku becomes SSG, he starts using that "background ki" as his own, and therefore his specific ki signature blends into the surrounding ki, from the perspective of conventional ki-sensors. Gods though can sense other gods presumably due to their first-hand experience with these techniques, like ninjas spotting other ninjas. We might also assume that different characters are still only able to "open themselves" up and utilize background ki to different degrees, which is why SSG Goku is not automatically as strong as Beerus, and why lesser gods like Dende can sense Beerus' ki while still not being super-powerful themselves. That is, they're familiar with these techniques, but unable to utilize them, at least not on the same scale, just as Kaio can teach Goku the Kaio-ken even though he can't use it himself.

OK, so what about SSGSS? Like I said, under this theory the SSG ritual is just a wedge for opening a Saiyan up to the ki in the surrounding environment, a handy stepping stone which might be replaced by some other type of stepping stone, or skipped entirely if someone's naturally good enough. In Super, Whis talks about how Vegeta needs to learn a new way of "controlling his ki" if he's to get stronger. Under this theory, the ki-controlling method Whis is talking about is this way of utilizing ki in the surrounding environment. Therefore, Vegeta's training with Whis eliminates the need for him to bother holding hands with everyone, because Whis happens to know other ways of achieving the same effect. And once Goku likewise trains with Whis, he then no longer needs to borrow power directly from other Saiyans (as Kaio seemed to assume he would). Technically though, Goku and Vegeta are still utilizing ki other than their own whenever they become SSGSS, only in a more subtle way than holding hands with Gohan/Goten/Trunks and absorbing their power directly. Also, from a certain perspective they're really just expanding their notion of what counts as "their" ki, so in that sense it's not too different from any other power-up.

Anyway, this is all just a crazy theory I came up with. If the Genki-Dama pops up sometime down the road in Super, it may very well end up disproving everything I've said here.

Wow that's actually a pretty good theory. But this "surrounding ki" thing. Is the rule only meant for a few meters apart from the saiyan? Or could it spread throughout the entire planet that they presumably use energy from?

[Basaku]

A shame we did not get an explanation of how Vegeta raised to God level ki, and also a shame the retcon went the way of SSB instead of just Saiyan God and Super Saiyan God, but eh... the manga's been the best so far. Manga > Movies > Super so far, but I've been happy with all three.

Perhaps I'm easy to please? Lifelong DB fan since a kid, so probably.

Cheers,

Swifticuffs

Well, most people think manga's been the most enjoyable so far and best executed despite heavily limited pagecount to work with so you're definitely not alone on that one. And welcome!

[Noah]

You know all that thing about this tournament make me hyped, but I wonder... Will we have a bigger tournament in the future? With fighters and Hakaishins from the other universes?

It would be a blessing in the skies if Toriyama included a Multiverse tournament of every other God of Destruction after their introductions. Sounds too fanfic, I know.

I don't know it could be interesting as an Arc, the tournament could have the same format as The Dark Tournament in Yu Yu Hakusho but indeed longer, with 12 teams of five members (one of each universe)

[Lord Frieza]

Herms has an amazing theory about the God forms in general including how Vegeta got his

Spoiler:

In Houshin Engi there's this Super Saiyan-esque form where you absorb energy from other characters and the environment and use it as your own. And it has blue hair. This got me thinking that maybe SSG and SSGSS work along similar lines.

With SSG, you're supposed to need to absorb energy from five other Saiyans to make it. There's a lot of talk about it being a form that Goku couldn't have reached without the help of others. Then with SSGSS, this requirement is no longer mentioned. In RF it's never explained if Vegeta ever needed to bother with the fancy ritual, and Super seems fairly explicit in showing that he didn't. Likewise, in Super when Goku goes SSGSS, Kaio is amazed he can do that without help from others. Also, with SSG the number of pure-hearted Saiyans that helps out seems to be the key factor, rather than the strength of the Saiyans in question. Goku takes energy from Gohan+Goten+Vegeta+Trunks and gets stronger, but it's still peanuts compared to SSG proper. But add Pan, who's still just a fetus, into the mix and suddenly you've got SSG.

So, crazy theory: SSG and SSGSS both work by taking ki from other characters and the surrounding environment and using it as your own. Basically, an improved version of whatever the hell Goku does in DBZ movie 7. After all, the Genki-Dama works on this very principle of combing ki from here and there to create one super-powerful attack. It seems well-established that no matter how powerful a baddie may be, they can still be defeated if you charge up a big enough Genki-Dama. The total power spread throughout the entire universe will always be superior to an individual. So the secret to the power of SSG and SSGSS (I theorize) is that it dips into this huge amount of background power, in such a way that the character can utilize that power continuously rather than in one big attack that takes forever to charge. Presumably Beerus and Whis owe their power to the same principle (or maybe not).

Under this logic, the reason for the five Saiyans ritual is that it somehow "pries open" the barrier between Goku and the ki in the surrounding environment. Absorbing energy from one pure-hearted Saiyan pushes upon this metaphorical floodgate a little bit, two Saiyans a bit more, and then for whatever reason five is the magic number that throws it open all the way. That's why it doesn't matter if the fifth Saiyan is a fetus or not, because their power isn't actually what's important. Rather, the key thing is the act of opening yourself up to the energy of five separate Saiyans. Presumably, the sort of energy-sharing involved in this ritual is more intimate than the energy-sharing involved in making the Genki-Dama, or differs in some other way that prevents Goku from getting red or blue hair when defeating Boo. Perhaps it's because it's between six members of the same species who are therefore more naturally in=tune. And perhaps that's why being "pure-hearted" is important too; pure-hearted people are likewise more in-tune with each other (and on that note, being "pure-hearted" is supposed to be necessary for using the Genki-Dama, at least in DBZ movie 7).

In that sense, the five pure-hearted Saiyans are like a wedge, to pry the door open. Or something. Similar enough to Goku that it's easy for him to open himself up to their energy, but opening himself up to that many other people causes him to reach some sort of critical mass where he's now able to open himself up to everything (or at least, a lot more of the surrounding environment than before) and use all that background energy as his own.

This might also explain why a god's ki cannot be sensed. We're told that in the DB universe pretty much everything has ki. Grass, rocks, stars, all living things. Sensing a specific person's ki must therefore be a matter of picking it out from the "background ki" that pervades everywhere. But (under this theory) when Goku becomes SSG, he starts using that "background ki" as his own, and therefore his specific ki signature blends into the surrounding ki, from the perspective of conventional ki-sensors. Gods though can sense other gods presumably due to their first-hand experience with these techniques, like ninjas spotting other ninjas. We might also assume that different characters are still only able to "open themselves" up and utilize background ki to different degrees, which is why SSG Goku is not automatically as strong as Beerus, and why lesser gods like Dende can sense Beerus' ki while still not being super-powerful themselves. That is, they're familiar with these techniques, but unable to utilize them, at least not on the same scale, just as Kaio can teach Goku the Kaio-ken even though he can't use it himself.

OK, so what about SSGSS? Like I said, under this theory the SSG ritual is just a wedge for opening a Saiyan up to the ki in the surrounding environment, a handy stepping stone which might be replaced by some other type of stepping stone, or skipped entirely if someone's naturally good enough. In Super, Whis talks about how Vegeta needs to learn a new way of "controlling his ki" if he's to get stronger. Under this theory, the ki-controlling method Whis is talking about is this way of utilizing ki in the surrounding environment. Therefore, Vegeta's training with Whis eliminates the need for him to bother holding hands with everyone, because Whis happens to know other ways of achieving the same effect. And once Goku likewise trains with Whis, he then no longer needs to borrow power directly from other Saiyans (as Kaio seemed to assume he would). Technically though, Goku and Vegeta are still utilizing ki other than their own whenever they become SSGSS, only in a more subtle way than holding hands with Gohan/Goten/Trunks and absorbing their power directly. Also, from a certain perspective they're really just expanding their notion of what counts as "their" ki, so in that sense it's not too different from any other power-up.

Anyway, this is all just a crazy theory I came up with. If the Genki-Dama pops up sometime down the road in Super, it may very well end up disproving everything I've said here.

Interesting, reminds me a lot of Sage Mode from Naruto.

[Khin]

I wonder if Pooh will also have some weird abilities like Boo,since he's like there version of Majin Boo,i expect him to have more than just punching,kicking,flying and trowing Ki blasts.

[Kishido]

Herms has an amazing theory about the God forms in general including how Vegeta got his

[snip]

Interesting, reminds me a lot of Sage Mode from Naruto.

If so... Why Goku had red normal hair in this bullshit ritual... And later after absorbing the power still yellow Super Saiyan hair...

Not even talking about Vegeta randomly getting to this level without any kind of absorbation of god powers previously

[Bullza]

Is there going to be a new chapter this month?

[Draconic]

Can you guys stop replying to Herms' whole post? I mean, I get the theory is cool and you want to give your thoughts on it, but that huge of a post 2-3 times a page makes stuff harder to follow.

[FortuneSSJ]

Is there going to be a new chapter this month?

Yes. The manga is still ongoing.

[sintzu]

If so... Why Goku had red normal hair in this bullshit ritual... And later after absorbing the power still yellow Super Saiyan hair...

Because he was just a plain Ssj but a really strong one due to getting a power boost from the ritual.

[pacz360]

So are we getting a chapter this week?

[Lord Beerus]

So are we getting a chapter this week?

Highly unlikely.

[DainIronfoot]

So are we getting a chapter this week?

Highly unlikely.

Haven't the chapters typically been spoiled sometime around the 16th/17th?

[TheDevilsCorpse]

Don't expect anything before at least the weekend (plan on the 18th as the target since the old method of leaking no longer applies). Just be grateful if something pops up before then.