Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[Speedster]

In the previous arc that was like 8 months earlier Piccolo was getting destroyed by Tagoma who SSJ Gohan could defeat and base Vegeta effortlessly annihilated. Then first form Freeza who was stronger than Tagoma and SSJ Gohan went to his final form and everyone was surprised by how much more powerful he had become. Still base Goku was slightly superior to final form Freeza in FnF. Now 3rd form Frost is clearly portrayed as on par with base Goku or even superior. Clearly his final form is superior to base Goku. Yet Piccolo now somehow has a chance against final form Frost though likely a weaker one than the one who faced Goku in round 2 due to the beating he received by SSJ Goku. Bear in mind that during the fighter selection Buu was the first one to pick, being considered stronger than Piccolo.
The biggest question is where would you put base Goku/Vegeta in FnF. Are they stronger than SSJ3 Goku/enraged SSJ2 Vegeta in BoGs? It originally appeared so but by the looks of it seems not.

In an attempt to solve the issue I am going to use the tier power scaling method. Forget power levels, power level percentage differences and SSJ multipliers. These are fan-made or 3rd party restrictions that are clearly not followed in the source material . Below is a list based on pure rankings.

1. Final form Freeza (Namek arc)
2. SSJ Goku (vs. Freeza)
3. SSJ Vegeta (Android arc), healthy SSJ Goku (Android arc)
4. Imperfect Cell (initial appearance)
5. No.17
6. No.16
7. Semi-Perfect Cell ---- Piccolo (FnF arc)
8. SSJ Vegeta (post-RoSaT)
9. SSJ Grade II Vegeta (post-RoSaT) --- Tagoma (FnF arc)
10. SSJ Vegeta (Cell Games), SSJ Trunks (Cell Games), Cell Juniors --- SSJ Gohan (FnF arc)
11. SSJ Goku (Cell Games)
12. Perfect Cell (full power) --- First form Freeza (FnF arc)
13. SSJ2 Gohan (Buu arc), Dabra
14. Super Perfect Cell --- Piccolo (U6 arc)
15. SSJ2 Gohan (Cell Games) --- Final form Freeza (FnF), base Goku (FnF), Final form Frost (Vs Piccolo)
15. Majin Vegeta, SSJ2 Goku --- base Goku (U6 arc)
16. Fat Buu --- final form Frost (Vs Goku)

[Draconic]

They are not turning god ki on and off. They are simply not using it. If Goku fires a ki blast and not a Kamehameha it doesn't mean he is turning his Kamehameha ki off, he just choses not to use it. Transformations are still techniques. Some, like SSGSS require God ki, most don't. I don't understand where this on/off thing is coming from.

[apex_pretador]

On piccolo's power jump:


Just don't forget that this is the same guy who becomes 20 times stronger in 6 days at kaio planet.

Same guy who became 100 times stronger in android training

Same guy who becomes from being a joke to IMperfect cell to NOT being a joke to cell jrs WITHOUT a sparring partner and WITHOUT transformation.

[ekrolo2]

On piccolo's power jump:


Just don't forget that this is the same guy who becomes 20 times stronger in 6 days at kaio planet.

Same guy who became 100 times stronger in android training

Same guy who becomes from being a joke to IMperfect cell to NOT being a joke to cell jrs WITHOUT a sparring partner and WITHOUT transformation.

And the same guy who hasn't been able to make any kind of worthwhile strength gains in years but Super logic now has everyone have massive stores of potential out of nowhere. Case-in-point, Vegeta.

[apex_pretador]

On piccolo's power jump:


Just don't forget that this is the same guy who becomes 20 times stronger in 6 days at kaio planet.

Same guy who became 100 times stronger in android training

Same guy who becomes from being a joke to IMperfect cell to NOT being a joke to cell jrs WITHOUT a sparring partner and WITHOUT transformation.

And the same guy who hasn't been able to make any kind of worthwhile strength gains in years but Super logic now has everyone have massive stores of potential out of nowhere. Case-in-point, Vegeta.

He gave up his INTENSE training & hope to surpass goku / Vegeta in buu arc , thanks to SS2 & SS3.

[apex_pretador]

7. Semi-Perfect Cell ---- Piccolo (FnF arc)
8. SSJ Vegeta (post-RoSaT)
9. SSJ Grade II Vegeta (post-RoSaT) --- Tagoma (FnF arc)
10. SSJ Vegeta (Cell Games), SSJ Trunks (Cell Games), Cell Juniors --- SSJ Gohan (FnF arc)
11. SSJ Goku (Cell Games)
12. Perfect Cell (full power) --- First form Freeza (FnF arc)
13. SSJ2 Gohan (Buu arc), Dabra
14. Super Perfect Cell --- Piccolo (U6 arc)
15. SSJ2 Gohan (Cell Games) --- Final form Freeza (FnF), base Goku (FnF), Final form Frost (Vs Piccolo)
15. Majin Vegeta, SSJ2 Goku --- base Goku (U6 arc)
16. Fat Buu --- final form Frost (Vs Goku)

That's some serious lowballing man.

RoF Piccolo should be >> Cell jr already , given toriyama's statement that he trains constantly, & in buu arc, he was excited to fight super saiyans.

Enraged SS gohan should be MUCH above SS3 tier, since his ki was felt to beerus planet, which is farther from earth than kaioshin planet.


SS goten & trunks were implied to be useless against FIRST FORM freeza post training, & freeza wasn't concerned of gotenks either, who , by your logic , must be able to one-shot final form freeza.
Also according to your logic, fat buu would own FINAL FORM freeza post training, & it doesn't look that even beerus will be able to match SS vegetto (buu arc) , let alone a heavily suppressed beerus being able to stomp a BoG vegetto.

[Bullza]

He also said he couldn't keep up with Goku and Vegeta in the ROSAT which was why he chose not to go in. Yet the preview suggests that he's stronger than either in their base form.

That's not going to make any sense.

Goku in base form was vastly more powerful than Piccolo and he's sparring with Vegeta whose vastly more powerful than Gohan. Goku and Vegeta trained for 3 years while Piccolo and Gohan only trained for several months.

So for Piccolo to surpass base Goku training with a weaker character for a shorter period of time would be some bullshit.

Though hopefully there is a reason for this, either a specific reason that boosted Piccolo so much for something that nerfed Frost so much.

[apex_pretador]

He also said he couldn't keep up with Goku and Vegeta in the ROSAT which was why he chose not to go in. Yet the preview suggests that he's stronger than either in their base form.

That's not going to make any sense.

Goku in base form was vastly more powerful than Piccolo and he's sparring with Vegeta whose vastly more powerful than Gohan. Goku and Vegeta trained for 3 years while Piccolo and Gohan only trained for several months.

So for Piccolo to surpass base Goku training with a weaker character for a shorter period of time would be some bullshit.

Though hopefully there is a reason for this, either a specific reason that boosted Piccolo so much for something that nerfed Frost so much.

Maybe he just doesn't want to train with vegeta? Or frost used up a lot of power in that technique (maybe it was technique) that put goku to sleep?

[Bullza]

Well going by what we knew it made sense that he said he couldn't keep up because he was destroyed by Tagoma it was in turn destroyed by Vegeta.

I can't remember the scene myself but someone on here said that Frost seemed surprised by Goku's reaction so likely wasn't involved with what happened.

[Speedster]

7. Semi-Perfect Cell ---- Piccolo (FnF arc)
8. SSJ Vegeta (post-RoSaT)
9. SSJ Grade II Vegeta (post-RoSaT) --- Tagoma (FnF arc)
10. SSJ Vegeta (Cell Games), SSJ Trunks (Cell Games), Cell Juniors --- SSJ Gohan (FnF arc)
11. SSJ Goku (Cell Games)
12. Perfect Cell (full power) --- First form Freeza (FnF arc)
13. SSJ2 Gohan (Buu arc), Dabra
14. Super Perfect Cell --- Piccolo (U6 arc)
15. SSJ2 Gohan (Cell Games) --- Final form Freeza (FnF), base Goku (FnF), Final form Frost (Vs Piccolo)
15. Majin Vegeta, SSJ2 Goku --- base Goku (U6 arc)
16. Fat Buu --- final form Frost (Vs Goku)

That's some serious lowballing man.

RoF Piccolo should be >> Cell jr already , given toriyama's statement that he trains constantly, & in buu arc, he was excited to fight super saiyans.

SS goten & trunks were implied to be useless against FIRST FORM freeza post training, & freeza wasn't concerned of gotenks either, who , by your logic , must be able to one-shot final form freeza
.Also according to your logic, fat buu would own FINAL FORM freeza post training, & it doesn't look that even beerus will be able to match SS vegetto (buu arc) , let alone a heavily suppressed beerus being able to stomp a BoG vegetto.

It is either random and complete non-sense power ups like Piccolo going from Cell’s level to stronger than Super Vegetto in 5 days and the even greater non-sense of Goku using and not using godly Ki OR accepting that just everyone is closer in power than we think and Goku turning SSGSS and Freeza turning golden is a major power up. Which personally I have less trouble to accept.

SSJ Gotenks in FNF was done for a gag – it was inconsistent even with his fusion time limit. And it requires 1hr to be able to fuse again – Gohan was protective of Goten and Trunks as individuals, even Goku was protective of Goten in Super “saving” him from a cliff fall. Also Goku sent them away while keeping Bulma, Roshi, and the others around. So Roshi>Gotenks by your logic. Additionally you try to adhere to static power level multipliers –I don’t. Also I support that in the anime version in the Buu arc SSJ3 Gotenks is weaker than SSJ3 Goku and as such SSJ1 Gotenks is weaker than SSJ1 Goku. That would place SSJ1 Gotenks at Perfect Cell’s level/First Form Freeza FnF. Also first Form Freeza was quick to sneak attack SSJ Gohan as he felt he was some kind of threat.

Enraged SS gohan should be MUCH above SS3 tier, since his ki was felt to beerus planet, which is farther from earth than kaioshin planet.

SSJ Gohan being felt in Beerus planet means nothing. He was felt by Goku after intense concentration plus Beerus planet is in the mortal universe unlike the Kaioshin's realm which lies outside.

I can't remember the scene myself but someone on here said that Frost seemed surprised by Goku's reaction so likely wasn't involved with what happened.

He didn't seem surprised at all. He seemed exhausted - inhaling and exhaling heavily. Probably the person who wrote the comment took the opening of his mouth as sign of amazement. But it was just heavy breathing.

[supercat]

7. Semi-Perfect Cell ---- Piccolo (FnF arc)
8. SSJ Vegeta (post-RoSaT)
9. SSJ Grade II Vegeta (post-RoSaT) --- Tagoma (FnF arc)
10. SSJ Vegeta (Cell Games), SSJ Trunks (Cell Games), Cell Juniors --- SSJ Gohan (FnF arc)
11. SSJ Goku (Cell Games)
12. Perfect Cell (full power) --- First form Freeza (FnF arc)
13. SSJ2 Gohan (Buu arc), Dabra
14. Super Perfect Cell --- Piccolo (U6 arc)
15. SSJ2 Gohan (Cell Games) --- Final form Freeza (FnF), base Goku (FnF), Final form Frost (Vs Piccolo)
15. Majin Vegeta, SSJ2 Goku --- base Goku (U6 arc)
16. Fat Buu --- final form Frost (Vs Goku)

That's some serious lowballing man.

RoF Piccolo should be >> Cell jr already , given toriyama's statement that he trains constantly, & in buu arc, he was excited to fight super saiyans.

SS goten & trunks were implied to be useless against FIRST FORM freeza post training, & freeza wasn't concerned of gotenks either, who , by your logic , must be able to one-shot final form freeza
.Also according to your logic, fat buu would own FINAL FORM freeza post training, & it doesn't look that even beerus will be able to match SS vegetto (buu arc) , let alone a heavily suppressed beerus being able to stomp a BoG vegetto.

It is either random and complete non-sense power ups like Piccolo going from Cell’s level to stronger than Super Vegetto in 5 days and the even greater non-sense of Goku using and not using godly Ki OR accepting that just everyone is closer in power than we think and Goku turning SSGSS and Freeza turning golden is a major power up. Which personally I have less trouble to accept.

SSJ Gotenks in FNF was done for a gag – it was inconsistent even with his fusion time limit. And it requires 1hr to be able to fuse again – Gohan was protective of Goten and Trunks as individuals, even Goku was protective of Goten in Super “saving” him from a cliff fall. Also Goku sent them away while keeping Bulma, Roshi, and the others around. So Roshi>Gotenks by your logic. Additionally you try to adhere to static power level multipliers –I don’t. Also I support that in the anime version in the Buu arc SSJ3 Gotenks is weaker than SSJ3 Goku and as such SSJ1 Gotenks is weaker than SSJ1 Goku. That would place SSJ1 Gotenks at Perfect Cell’s level/First Form Freeza FnF. First Form Freeza was quick to sneak attack SSJ Gohan.

Enraged SS gohan should be MUCH above SS3 tier, since his ki was felt to beerus planet, which is farther from earth than kaioshin planet.

SSJ Gohan being felt in Beerus planet means nothing. It was felt by Goku after intense concentration plus Beerus planet is in the mortal universe unlike the Kaioshin's realm which lies outside.

Except the series has a track record of characters becoming recipients of massive power increases with no real explainable cause.

In any case, it was more like 8 months, not 5 days.

Are you also forgetting that Frieza jumped from low SSJ-tier to a level that enabled him to trump SSB? Tagoma powering up to where he did in a mere four months is also another prime example of this so-called nonsense; therefore, dismissing Piccolo's (or anyone else's) boost and going above and beyond to squeeze him into some low-balled tier makes zero sense in my opinion.

Sure Gohan was snuck up on, but the whole point of that scene was also likely to show just how powerful Frieza was compared to everyone else on the battlefield (and yes this includes Gohan).

If a theory / speculation requires too much unnecessary thinking it's likely that it's far too convoluted to hold much validity.

[fexus]

Why are you guys seriously lowballing Piccolo? It's not that hard to know how strong he is. Frost final form is at least stronger than base Goku. Which is stronger than anybody in Buu saga already. Lets make an assumption that Frost tire himself out fighting Goku, he is still at least stronger than anybody in Buu saga. There's no going around that. By this we can make a reasonable assumption that full power Piccolo is at least as strong as base Goku right now if not at least a bit more stronger. You guys are seriously trying to make Piccolo Cell tier because you can't see how he got the new power boost? That's sad.

[ZombieVito]

Why are you guys seriously lowballing Piccolo? It's not that hard to know how strong he is. Frost final form is at least stronger than base Goku. Which is stronger than anybody in Buu saga already. Lets make an assumption that Frost tire himself out fighting Goku, he is still at least stronger than anybody in Buu saga. There's no going around that. By this we can make a reasonable assumption that full power Piccolo is at least as strong as base Goku right now if not at least a bit more stronger. You guys are seriously trying to make Piccolo Cell tier because you can't see how he got the new power boost? That's sad.

It is sad. People forget that he trained for months with Ultimate Gohan. That merits a big boost.

[Bullza]

But it doesn't merit him being stronger than base Goku who started off at a vastly higher level and trained with someone vastly stronger for a much longer period of time.

[namekiansaiyan]

Based on the preview Piccolo is really strong and people need to accept that, surely you want him to be powerful and so it is nit just saiyans. Remember that Tagoma and Frieza got powerful by training for a few months.

[ZombieVito]

But it doesn't merit him being stronger than base Goku who started off at a vastly higher level and trained with someone vastly stronger for a much longer period of time.

That's why (As of now) I don't have him stronger than base Goku.

Frost [Final form]: 3,000
Weakened: 1,200

Goku: 850

Piccolo: 480
Makankosappo: 1,560

That is how I see the episode going.

[fexus]

But it doesn't merit him being stronger than base Goku who started off at a vastly higher level and trained with someone vastly stronger for a much longer period of time.

It's not like we know how he got the boost and even if he did get that boost through training, the jump is actually not that bad. It's not like Freeza where he goes from Freeza tier to god tier in 4 months. This is 8 months and his full power still isn't stronger than BASE Goku.

[Speedster]

In any case, it was more like 8 months, not 5 days.

No it was 5 days. Buu was considered stronger than Piccolo. Goku in particular went on to say about how strong Buu is and begged him to participate. And when Gohan showed interest then it would have been either Gohan or Piccolo - not both - as Buu's place was secured as he was stronger than both. And Goku went there while they were fighting -- Gohan was his base mind you while sparring with Piccolo. And Piccolo in FnF asked Gohan whether he needs help against Shishami who was Zarbon level and the strongest in Freeza'a army (bar Tagoma) and later Sorbet was surprised that Tagoma surpassed the Ginuy force. Why is the Ginyu force still a measure of reference? It is not me that lowballs the characters. It is the show.

Are you also forgetting that Frieza jumped from low SSJ-tier to a level that enabled him to trump SSB? Tagoma powering up to where he did in a mere four months is also another prime example of this so-called nonsense; therefore, dismissing Piccolo's (or anyone else's) boost and going above and beyond to squeeze him into some low-balled tier makes zero sense in my opinion.

Yes. That is why I am lowballing everyone because it makes more sense for those jumps to take place if all are actually closer in power. I am not willing to place Piccolo or Tagoma in kid Buu's or Super Vegetto's level. That is non-sense. It is clear the show doesn't consider that there is big power difference between Ginuy level and where most Z fighters are at the moment and that turning SSJ is a major non static boost.

[Vice]

If one of Freeza's random mooks can go from Zarbon-tier to Boo-tier in 4 months then I see nothing wrong with a prominent main character getting a boost. It was required for this arc and it's nice to see Piccolo in an important role again.

[namekiansaiyan]

If one of Freeza's random mooks can go from Zarbon-tier to Boo-tier in 4 months then I see nothing wrong with a prominent main character getting a boost. It was required for this arc and it's nice to see Piccolo in an important role again.

I know it seems some people dont like the fact that there is someone other than Goku and Vegeta getting some glory