Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[fexus]

In any case, it was more like 8 months, not 5 days.

No it was 5 days. Buu was considered stronger than Piccolo. Goku in particular went on to say about how strong Buu is and begged him to participate. And when Gohan showed interest then it would have been either Gohan or Piccolo - not both - as Buu's place was secured as he was stronger than both. And Goku went there while they were fighting -- Gohan was his base mind you while sparring with Piccolo. And Piccolo in FnF asked Gohan whether he needs help against Shishami who was Zarbon level and the strongest in Freeza'a army (bar Tagoma) and later Sorbet was surprised that Tagoma surpassed the Ginuy force. Why is the Ginyu force still a measure of reference? It is not me that lowballs the characters. It is the show.

Are you also forgetting that Frieza jumped from low SSJ-tier to a level that enabled him to trump SSB? Tagoma powering up to where he did in a mere four months is also another prime example of this so-called nonsense; therefore, dismissing Piccolo's (or anyone else's) boost and going above and beyond to squeeze him into some low-balled tier makes zero sense in my opinion.

Yes. That is why I am lowballing everyone because it makes more sense for those jumps to take place if all are actually closer in power. I am not willing to place Piccolo or Tagoma in kid Buu's or Super Vegetto's level. That is non-sense. It is clear the show doesn't consider that there is big power difference between Ginuy level and where most Z fighters are at the moment and that turning SSJ is a major non static boost.

Goku and Vegeta wasn't there for those 8 months and just arrived there a couple of days before the tournament. They were training not fighting so I see no reason for them to go all out especially when Piccolo was trying to train Gohan back. This is a lot of hoop jumping for something as easy as dragon ball.

[Bullza]

But it doesn't merit him being stronger than base Goku who started off at a vastly higher level and trained with someone vastly stronger for a much longer period of time.

It's not like we know how he got the boost and even if he did get that boost through training, the jump is actually not that bad. It's not like Freeza where he goes from Freeza tier to god tier in 4 months. This is 8 months and his full power still isn't stronger than BASE Goku.

But Frieza's boost is acceptable. He was already monstrously strong naturally without ever training a day in his life, so by unlocking his latent ability it makes sense that he'd get a huge boost.

With Piccolo he's been training since he's been born. For him to get that much stronger in just a few months wouldn't make any sense unless there were more to it.

[Speedster]

Goku and Vegeta wasn't there for those 8 months and just arrived there a couple of days before the tournament. They were training not fighting so I see no reason for them to go all out especially when Piccolo was trying to train Gohan back. This is a lot of hoop jumping for something as easy as dragon ball.

Perhaps you should listen your own words. Dragonball is simple. When Goku in Super says that Buu is the strongest you shouldn't try to find excuses to support he is wrong or what he was sensing in fight was suppressed because they weren't going all out. I can equally say that Piccolo couldn't keep up with SSJ Gohan -- that is why Gohan trained in his base.

Don't forget that Super placed base Goku in BoGs below Namek arc final form Freeza.In the process they put EVERYONE below Namek arc Freeza, including Piccolo. They only retained the Super Saiyans forms at some higher status. Remember base Gohan (not ultimate Gohan) in FnF was stronger than Piccolo and Ginuy told Gohan he hadn't gotten much stronger since they last fought on Namek. For me it is clear as day. The differences between characters were diminished, especially when there is no SSJ transformation involved which clearly appears to be hold in higher status every time.

[ZombieVito]

Don't forget that Super placed base Goku in BoGs below Namek arc final form Freeza.In the process they put EVERYONE below Namek arc Freeza, including Piccolo. They only retained the Super Saiyans forms at some higher status. Remember base Gohan (not ultimate Gohan) in FnF was stronger than Piccolo and Ginuy told Gohan he hadn't gotten much stronger since they last fought on Namek. For me it is clear as day. The differences between characters were diminished, especially when there is no SSJ transformation involved which clearly appears to be hold in higher status every time.

This is so incorrect that it hurts.

[fexus]

Goku and Vegeta wasn't there for those 8 months and just arrived there a couple of days before the tournament. They were training not fighting so I see no reason for them to go all out especially when Piccolo was trying to train Gohan back. This is a lot of hoop jumping for something as easy as dragon ball.

Perhaps you should listen your own words. Dragonball is simple. When Goku in Super says that Buu is the strongest you shouldn't try to find excuses to support he is wrong or what he was sensing in fight was suppressed because they weren't going all out. I can equally say that Piccolo couldn't keep up with SSJ Gohan -- that is why Gohan trained in his base.

Don't forget that Super placed base Goku in BoGs below Namek arc final form Freeza.In the process they put EVERYONE below Namek arc Freeza, including Piccolo. They only retained the Super Saiyans forms at some higher status. Remember base Gohan (not ultimate Gohan) in FnF was stronger than Piccolo and Ginuy told Gohan he hadn't gotten much stronger since they last fought on Namek. For me it is clear as day. The differences between characters were diminished, especially when there is no SSJ transformation involved which clearly appears to be hold in higher status every time.

I did and DB is full of suppressing their own power. It's not rocket science. It's basic DB. And no, Beerus said that the Goku he sees then isn't as strong as Namerk Freeza. The unpowered up Goku. The not powering up to even show the white ki around him Goku. That's what Beerus said to be not as strong as Freeza. It really seems that you are really confused at that part.
Goku said it from experience from their past encounter not the current one.

[apex_pretador]

Everyone before this ep was like :

Oh f*** this thing. Piccolo is second. He will have no chance against the opponent, he needs a powerup or I'll quit watching super. It is all saiyans.

And now:

Piccolo can't be this strong. He has never shown to jump in power while training , neither a being weaker than dodoria became stronger than cell in 4 months of training. f*** this thing.

Seriously, piccolo is awesome & next ep looks awesome (hopefully it doesn't end up like this one in art & animation)

[Speedster]

Don't forget that Super placed base Goku in BoGs below Namek arc final form Freeza.In the process they put EVERYONE below Namek arc Freeza, including Piccolo. They only retained the Super Saiyans forms at some higher status. Remember base Gohan (not ultimate Gohan) in FnF was stronger than Piccolo and Ginuy told Gohan he hadn't gotten much stronger since they last fought on Namek. For me it is clear as day. The differences between characters were diminished, especially when there is no SSJ transformation involved which clearly appears to be hold in higher status every time.

This is so incorrect that it hurts.

No it is not incorrect at all. What hurts it is the show you are watching not adhering to the rules you think it supposedly followed. You can't accept the truth and try to devise headcanons to explain non-sense numerical power levels based on non-sense multipliers given in BS guidebooks which were never written by anyone directly involved in the source material. When it is clear that the show diminished the differences between base forms, pays attention to skill and that a character can no longer one shot someone who has supposedly 5x higher power level than them ...

And just to be clear. I have no problem Piccolo ascending in power but not in an ass-pull fashion with no explanation or even hint as this insults our intelligence. They had a numerous chances to make Piccolo stronger. He could stay dead and train with Kaioshin and brought back to life when the Kaioshin split up on Namek. Get then the Namekian book of legends and have some sort of God transformation and train in RoSaT with Goku and Vegeta. It is the fact we got a totally random upgrade that it annoys people. Not Piccolo becoming relevant again. I personally love Piccolo.

[apex_pretador]

Don't forget that Super placed base Goku in BoGs below Namek arc final form Freeza.In the process they put EVERYONE below Namek arc Freeza, including Piccolo. They only retained the Super Saiyans forms at some higher status. Remember base Gohan (not ultimate Gohan) in FnF was stronger than Piccolo and Ginuy told Gohan he hadn't gotten much stronger since they last fought on Namek. For me it is clear as day. The differences between characters were diminished, especially when there is no SSJ transformation involved which clearly appears to be hold in higher status every time.

This is so incorrect that it hurts.

He believes that base saiyans were stronger than piccolo in android arc , Cell Games & buu arc.

He also believes SS to be a 5x multiplier to support his theory.

[ZombieVito]

Ginyu never told Gohan he barely got stronger.

He is incorrect.

[Speedster]

Ginyu never told Gohan he barely got stronger.
He is incorrect.

First of all I said that Ginuy said that Gohan hadn't gotten much stronger. Not barely stronger. And for the record here is what Ginyu said. Make your own conclusions...

Spoiler:

Ginyu-Tagoma before fighting Gohan:
Let’s see how much that little brat has grown then.

Ginyu-Tagoma while fighting Gohan:
Oh, come on, this is extremely disappointing. I can't believe you would try to fight Ginyu-sama with this amount of power.

I presume that in your headcanon you support that base Gohan in FnF was partially mystic, and that mystic Gohan was like 10-20x stronger than SSJ3 Goku so even if Gohan was dropped to 5-10% of his power was still SSJ2-SSJ3 Goku tier, so this explains why base Gohan in FnF was higher than Piccolo who according to you is portrayed as Cell level, right? So let's set this straight to see how incorrect your logic is. Ginyu wants to see how much Gohan has grown (in power) since when he was a little brat. Then he gets disappointed because he finds Gohan's power level low. But how can this be possible? It is like I used to earn $120,000 per year and you used to earn $20,000. With your hard work you created business etc and raised your annual income from $20,000 to $20 billion. Then I inherit Bill Gates and I suddenly earn $50 billion a year and I turn on you and tell you that I am disappointed in you, that you are poor and I can't believe you dare to stand next to me. Makes sense...

Also what about this?

Spoiler:

Ginyu Tagoma simultaneously shown to be punching Gohan, Piccolo, Kuririn and Roshi [img]

Why are Kuririn and Roshi still alive? Ginyu who is actively trying to kill them is “pulling his punches” selectively? Why?

He believes that base saiyans were stronger than piccolo in android arc , Cell Games & buu arc. He also believes SS to be a 5x multiplier to support his theory.

Not in the entire Android arc. But anyway that's right. I too believe that since Super in BoGs relegated base Goku to below Freeza level they had no qualms to do so to everyone else proportionally. That is why everyone is lowballed to Ginyu level. But anyway despite the nerfing Super consistently portrayed the base Saiyans as stronger than Piccolo all along -which is the verification that in relative terms base Saiyans>Piccolo before BoGs.

[Vice]

Seriously, Battle of Gods finally put to rest the notion that the base Saiyans were above Piccolo, it also put to rest the notion that Goten and Trunks were stronger than Piccolo as well and next episode should put to rest any notion that anyone in the main cast aside from Goku and Vegeta are stronger than Piccolo as well.

[Neon Z]

Also what about this?

Spoiler:

Why are Kuririn and Roshi still alive? Ginyu who is actively trying to kill them is “pulling his punches” selectively? Why?

So, you think that Roshi, Piccolo and Kuririn are all in the same tier in Super? But then why was Piccolo the only one considered for the tournament?

It is like I used to earn $120,000 per year and you used to earn $20,000. With your hard work you created business etc and raised your annual income from $20,000 to $20 billion. Then I inherit Bill Gates and I suddenly earn $50 billion a year and I turn on you and tell you that I am disappointed in you, that you are poor and I can't believe you dare to stand next to me. Makes sense...

It's trash talking. Gohan is weak compared to Tagoma so he goes on and humiliates him with words in addition to beating him up.

If Gohan's power had dropped completely to that point, why did he only notice that he couldn't draw his full power after fighting during almost two episodes? A smaller drop makes much more sense considering that.

[supercat]

In any case, it was more like 8 months, not 5 days.

No it was 5 days. Buu was considered stronger than Piccolo. Goku in particular went on to say about how strong Buu is and begged him to participate. And when Gohan showed interest then it would have been either Gohan or Piccolo - not both - as Buu's place was secured as he was stronger than both. And Goku went there while they were fighting -- Gohan was his base mind you while sparring with Piccolo. And Piccolo in FnF asked Gohan whether he needs help against Shishami who was Zarbon level and the strongest in Freeza'a army (bar Tagoma) and later Sorbet was surprised that Tagoma surpassed the Ginuy force. Why is the Ginyu force still a measure of reference? It is not me that lowballs the characters. It is the show.

Are you also forgetting that Frieza jumped from low SSJ-tier to a level that enabled him to trump SSB? Tagoma powering up to where he did in a mere four months is also another prime example of this so-called nonsense; therefore, dismissing Piccolo's (or anyone else's) boost and going above and beyond to squeeze him into some low-balled tier makes zero sense in my opinion.

Yes. That is why I am lowballing everyone because it makes more sense for those jumps to take place if all are actually closer in power. I am not willing to place Piccolo or Tagoma in kid Buu's or Super Vegetto's level. That is non-sense. It is clear the show doesn't consider that there is big power difference between Ginuy level and where most Z fighters are at the moment and that turning SSJ is a major non static boost.

Wow! I seriously can't help but wonder whether or not you're taking this discussion seriously; but hey, I got a decent laugh out of it.

First and foremost, you seem to be putting in way too much stock into the chronological order of recruitment, which was likely just a process that was thought of randomly without any real depth or meaning behind it.

Despite this discussion pertaining to a series that's quite known for nonchalantly powering up random characters with little to no explanation, I guess you're just not convinced that this is just one more example of that.

Where you're willing to place Piccolo is completely irrelevant and holds no significance whatsoever; the story progressed in a fashion that likely granted him far more power than Buu arc SSJ Vegetto could have ever mustered. Again, this isn't uncommon if you look back at other arcs; top-tiered fighters are constantly being surpassed.

Perhaps you should listen your own words. Dragonball is simple. When Goku in Super says that Buu is the strongest you shouldn't try to find excuses to support he is wrong or what he was sensing in fight was suppressed because they weren't going all out. I can equally say that Piccolo couldn't keep up with SSJ Gohan -- that is why Gohan trained in his base.

Don't forget that Super placed base Goku in BoGs below Namek arc final form Freeza.In the process they put EVERYONE below Namek arc Freeza, including Piccolo. They only retained the Super Saiyans forms at some higher status. Remember base Gohan (not ultimate Gohan) in FnF was stronger than Piccolo and Ginuy told Gohan he hadn't gotten much stronger since they last fought on Namek. For me it is clear as day. The differences between characters were diminished, especially when there is no SSJ transformation involved which clearly appears to be hold in higher status every time.

Are you trying to write a fanfic here or something? I mean why else would you be cluttering your post with all these imaginary lines?

It was never officially stated that Buu > Piccolo, so that automatically retracts from the validity of your speculation. Also, Ginyu said what..?

Base Goku standing a few notches before Frieza in BoG has nothing to do with Piccolo and Gohan. You do realize that Gohan's Ultimate ritual was likely what granted him more strength in his base form than his father right?

No it is not incorrect at all. What hurts it is the show you are watching not adhering to the rules you think it supposedly followed. You can't accept the truth and try to devise headcanons to explain non-sense numerical power levels based on non-sense multipliers given in BS guidebooks which were never written by anyone directly involved in the source material. When it is clear that the show diminished the differences between base forms, pays attention to skill and that a character can no longer one shot someone who has supposedly 5x higher power level than them ...

And just to be clear. I have no problem Piccolo ascending in power but not in an ass-pull fashion with no explanation or even hint as this insults our intelligence. They had a numerous chances to make Piccolo stronger. He could stay dead and train with Kaioshin and brought back to life when the Kaioshin split up on Namek. Get then the Namekian book of legends and have some sort of God transformation and train in RoSaT with Goku and Vegeta. It is the fact we got a totally random upgrade that it annoys people. Not Piccolo becoming relevant again. I personally love Piccolo.

So you're saying that others devise head cannon, yet you're doing just that.

It doesn't matter how much these "random upgrades" annoy you. Fact of the matter is, they occur and may keep occurring as the story progresses. Don't like it? Then perhaps this isn't the right series for you.

Piccolo and Frost are likely leagues above SSJ Vegetto and that's that; I've elaborated on the feasibility of this speculation numerous times in other posts, so feel free to dig around.

[Speedster]

Also what about this?

Spoiler:

Why are Kuririn and Roshi still alive? Ginyu who is actively trying to kill them is “pulling his punches” selectively? Why?

So, you think that Roshi, Piccolo and Kuririn are all in the same tier in Super? But then why was Piccolo the only one considered for the tournament?

Not exactly. Though part of my point is that differences are diminished in Super the other part is that if character A can fight against C and hold their own/doesn't die by/tanks C's attacks and then another character B fights against C and also holds their own/doesn't die/tanks C's attacks it doesn't mean that A=B. It rather appears that the logic behind the fights in Super is more like that of Versus video games where players have a line of life/health/power which they consume during a fight and depending on their strength level the hits consume more/less of the life-health. That and is why the stamina issue was so important during the Fukkatsu no F arc twice (Z warriors eating senzu beans, Golden Freeza having stamina issues) and again now in this U6 tournament. So in conclusion it follows that if you have enough skill you can inflict damage to your opponent little by little and likewise if your opponent is strong they may most probably beat you but not necessarily one-shot you. You still have a chance at victory

So you're saying that others devise head cannon, yet you're doing just that.

Fact of the matter is, they occur and may keep occurring as the story progresses. Don't like it? Then perhaps this isn't the right series for you.

Thanks of the advice but what is good for me is for me to decide. In case you didn't realise my point is that the numerical power levels and the so called “official SSJ” multipliers are a bunch of BS and irrelevant at the moment with anything in the show. And I try to prove that if indeed any of these rules were followed as people like yourself who think they are still applicable believe, then quite a few of the things we have seen should had been impossible.

Perhaps the franchise needs more fans like you but unfortunately Dragonball also gained some more critically thinking fans from its previous glory who don't passively accept through headcanons every non-sense thrown their way and instead choose to express their criticism. Don't get me wrong there is no problem with people devising theories - the problem begins when these people attempt to force their theories as some kind of truth in order to stop the criticism in the show or pass their points as factual during debates. That being said you can always make subjective conclusions and base your arguments on the basis of probability. And this is what I am personally doing. If you didn’t realise it is not my fault. It’s yours.

Piccolo and Frost are likely leagues above SSJ Vegetto and that's that; I've elaborated on the feasibility of this speculation numerous times in other posts, so feel free to dig around.

Because you say so it doesn't make it true. It is your headcanon interpretation that you try to pass as the way it is because otherwise in your mind the power scaling appears to make no sense. But take off your biased glasses and see clearly. What you will see is that any power-scaling in Super based on the Freeza arc power levels philosophy is hopeless.

Piccolo and Frost are likely leagues above SSJ Vegetto and that's that; I've elaborated on the feasibility of this speculation numerous times in other posts, so feel free to dig around.

It was never officially stated that Buu > Piccolo, so that automatically retracts from the validity of your speculation. Also, Ginyu said what..?

Was it officially stated that Piccolo is stronger than Super Vegetto? No. That automatically detracts from the validity of your speculation. You see the problem when you try to dismiss an argument with a headcanon? However at least I can back my own argument up with factual premises. Piccolo was definitely weaker than Buu in FnF and weaker even than base Gohan and even 5 days prior to the tournament Goku while thinking of the remaining 3 characters to choose for the tournament he picked Buu first and noted how strong Buu is (which was probably also an attempt to fit the canon EoZ into the story by the way where Uub is still relavant). Piccolo was chosen last and he was even going to not be selected at all had Gohan stepped in. Make your own conclusions. I made mine.

[kidhero1000]

think final RoF form Freeza would have still been far stronger, as Goku was beating Frost silly in just SS1. His SS1 may be much stronger now due to all the extra training, I'll assume SS1 still isn't near SSG form, which he was fighting RoF Freeza in.

Probably better than any form of Z Freeza though to even give the Super Goku a challenge.

[Bullza]

His SSJ1 form was equal to SSJG back when he fought Beerus. At this point SSJ1 should be stronger than that SSJG.

Frost had the upper hand over base Goku in his third form while Frieza in his final form was pretty outmatched. Frost should be stronger than Frieza when they're both in the same form.

Golden Frieza is still the strongest though.

[supercat]

So you're saying that others devise head cannon, yet you're doing just that.

Fact of the matter is, they occur and may keep occurring as the story progresses. Don't like it? Then perhaps this isn't the right series for you.

Thanks of the advice but what is good for me is for me to decide. In case you didn't realise my point is that the numerical power levels and the so called “official SSJ” multipliers are a bunch of BS and irrelevant at the moment with anything in the show. And I try to prove that if indeed any of these rules were followed as people like yourself who think they are still applicable believe, then quite a few of the things we have seen should had been impossible.

Perhaps the franchise needs more fans like you but unfortunately Dragonball also gained some more critically thinking fans from its previous glory who don't passively accept through headcanons every non-sense thrown their way and instead choose to express their criticism. Don't get me wrong there is no problem with people devising theories - the problem begins when these people attempt to force their theories as some kind of truth in order to stop the criticism in the show or pass their points as factual during debates. That being said you can always make subjective conclusions and base your arguments on the basis of probability. And this is what I am personally doing. If you didn’t realise it is not my fault. It’s yours.

Piccolo and Frost are likely leagues above SSJ Vegetto and that's that; I've elaborated on the feasibility of this speculation numerous times in other posts, so feel free to dig around.

Because you say so it doesn't make it true. It is your headcanon interpretation that you try to pass as the way it is because otherwise in your mind the power scaling appears to make no sense. But take off your biased glasses and see clearly. What you will see is that any power-scaling in Super based on the Freeza arc power levels philosophy is hopeless.

It was never officially stated that Buu > Piccolo, so that automatically retracts from the validity of your speculation. Also, Ginyu said what..?

Was it officially stated that Piccolo is stronger than Super Vegetto? No. That automatically detracts from the validity of your speculation. You see the problem when you try to dismiss an argument with a headcanon? However at least I can back my own argument up with factual premises. Piccolo was definitely weaker than Buu in FnF and weaker even than base Gohan and even 5 days prior to the tournament Goku while thinking of the remaining 3 characters to choose for the tournament he picked Buu first and noted how strong Buu is (which was probably also an attempt to fit the canon EoZ into the story by the way where Uub is still relavant). Piccolo was chosen last and he was even going to not be selected at all had Gohan stepped in. Make your own conclusions. I made mine.

First and foremost, do you not know how to quote properly? Your quoting was off, and I had to fix it for the sake of keeping this discussion legible. It's a rather simple endeavor that I figured most people wouldn't have had any trouble with. That said, if you really don't know how to utilize it properly, I suggest you take some time to learn, as it isn't my job (or the other members') to sit here and correct your mistakes.

I'm all for people formulating speculations and theories; but here's the problem with your post... you're dragging in facts that have not been confirmed nor explicitly mentioned. That's not really utilizing your critical thinking skills to come up with a speculation, it's called making up your own story.

Also, why would I care how much criticism the show receives? I'm not the one who created it now am I?

Engaging in logical discussions is what ultimately piques my interest; trying to squeeze everyone into some ridiculously low-balled scale makes zero sense when the show has historically depicted seemingly invincible characters getting trumped time and time again as soon as a new arc begins. So if anything, I'm following a previously established trend, whereas you're going above and beyond to downplay everyone's power.

You do realize that Base Goku retained the vast majority of his SSG powers right? Toss in all the additional training that took place after his fight with Beerus, and we have no real reason to believe that Base Goku is worlds below his SSG incarnation. A few notches below at most, but no where near any of the fodders from the Buu arc.

This discussion is becoming so redundant, I don't even know where to begin. The order in which the fighters were recruited likely has nothing to do with strength; if it did, don't you think it would have been further elaborated?

Sure, Piccolo was likely weaker than Buu during the events of FnF, but it's also very likely that 8 months of training changed that.

Your whole Buu was recruited first argument holds no validity, as a direct comparison between Buu and Piccolo was never made. Goku acknowledging the former's strength also doesn't automatically take away from the latter's upgrades. In any case, I don't even think Goku knew Piccolo was training.

[omaro34]

If one of Freeza's random mooks can go from Zarbon-tier to Boo-tier in 4 months then I see nothing wrong with a prominent main character getting a boost. It was required for this arc and it's nice to see Piccolo in an important role again.

I know it seems some people dont like the fact that there is someone other than Goku and Vegeta getting some glory

I couldn't agree with you guys more. Piccolo is an iconic character in the series and him getting stronger is actually great nostalgia. We haven't seen him have a major fight since 17, so its nice to see him in action again.

[Vice]

Piccolo was definitely weaker than Buu in FnF and weaker even than base Gohan and even 5 days prior to the tournament Goku while thinking of the remaining 3 characters to choose for the tournament he picked Buu first and noted how strong Buu is (which was probably also an attempt to fit the canon EoZ into the story by the way where Uub is still relavant). Piccolo was chosen last and he was even going to not be selected at all had Gohan stepped in. Make your own conclusions. I made mine.

Uh... what? Piccolo was not chosen last, he was mentioned right after Boo. Gohan got immediately dismissed and wasn't even asked to join in the first place, dude had to volunteer himself in and then immediately had to back out. Goku chose both Boo and Piccolo himself.

[apex_pretador]

mystic Gohan was like 10-20x stronger than SSJ3 Goku

Nope, more like 4-5x