Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[ZombieVito]

It is but we've cross referenced with the movie to fill in the gaps when necessary. If wewere just going with the TV series then we'd have to completely forget about the whole Beerus is a 10 and Goku is a 6 thing because that was never mentioned in the series.

I know you didn't say Vegito couldn't exist but if he does (and he should) then shouldn't SSJ3 Vegito be the one whose a 4? And then Super Vegito would be a 0.25?

Oh crap I get what you are saying, that 4 is in correlation with Beerus being 100.

[RandomGuy96]

I'm just seeing more and more proof that base Goku isn't that strong.

Perhaps that may imply even Final Form Freeza wasn't that strong. He thought he could easily surpass Boo's level, but in the end Boo is still a challenge for Goku as long as he doesn't transform.

Final Form Freeza was around the same level as base Goku, so that should go without saying, yes.

I didn't mean that at all, I know he's stronger than Base Goku. Apex said just because he's great at skill he can keep up with someone that's 50x more powerful than him but that's literally impossible.

Yeah obviously not if Piccolo is 50x weaker, Frost and Piccolo are definitely close in power. People keep ignoring the evidence from the battle and Piccolo saying they are underestimating him and are instead just believing what Goku said to Piccolo even though he probably only said that because he did not know how he lost himself.

I'm just seeing more and more proof that base Goku isn't that strong.

Or you refuse to believe Piccolo is really strong.

Yes, I don't believe that Piccolo went from weaker than Kaioshin to stronger than Super Vegetto in like a week of training, after training non-stop for ten years didn't do jack for him. I don't believe that throwing Piccolo into the ROSAT for an hour could have been enough to solve the whole Buu arc. I also don't believe base Goku being anywhere beyond maybe SS3-ish tier has ever been implied anywhere, while it has been implied that he's at the very least nowhere near God level.

[ZombieVito]

I'm curious Random, what's your take on Gohan, Piccolo and Tagoma in the RoF arc.

[namekiansaiyan]

Why are some people not accepting Piccolo has to be God tier, just look at the evidence

Frost only hit Piccolo when Piccolo wanted him too
That Special Beam Cannon would have killed Frost.
The Special Beam Cannon Destroyed the dome this was done to showohow powerful it was( he charged for too long) as evidenced by Champa's reaction.
Piccolo said that everyone is underestimatimg him( that is why no one said how powerful he was)
Final form Frost is stronger than base Goku who is God tier and therefore Piccolo is stronger than base Goku.
Piccolo reluctantly said I forfeit when Vegeta wanted him to, Piccolo was annoyed can't you people tell.
This was a show and tell of his power.


The only reason you people keep daying he is not God tier is because Goku said nothing. I virtually can guarantee you that at the start of the next episode he wil say to Piccolo you have got strong and I underestimated you.

[Speedster]

In DBZ Tenshinhan and Yamcha ganged up against a Cell Jr and kicked it away of a helpless SSJ Goku. It is the same Yamcha that days earlier was stabbed to death by Dr Gero who is several times weaker than a Cell Jr. Then 7 years later and after Yamcha quitting training, Yamcha could beat Olibu who could put up a good fight against Pikkon who could one-shot Perfect Cell. Now tell me again what is the power level of Yamcha in your meaningless power level lists? But wait! These things were not in the manga! Well for that material we have the luxury of ignoring things that the anime showed and which appear to be illogical. But you do realise that Super is produced by the same guys who created the abovementioned so-called Z "filler" which you could not accept as “real”, right?

[ssbgoku]

He fought him in the movie, that's arguably more canon than the series.

There shouldn't be any reason why a SSJ3 couldn't exist so no reason why Goku would not put it under consideration when comparing it to Beerus.

Base Goku put up a better fight against Beerus than an angry SSJ2 Vegeta did who supposedly surpassed SSJ3 Goku.

I don't know how strong he's supposed to be exactly but he's definitely stronger than Buu.

Buuhan: 2.56
SSJ Vegetto: 4

You don't include a hypothetical SSJ3 Vegito?

Base Goku didn't fight Beerus. He just destroyed the energy ball but that was because he attacked the core.

I didn't include a SSJ3 Vegetto because he doesn't technically exist. He would be a 32.

Exactly the only form of vegito goku could and most likely used in compare to beerus power was buu arc full power ssj vegito, and even then there would be doubt if goku was assuming full power of buu arc ssj vegito or what he have seen.

At least buu arc ssj vegito ~ 1% of beerus.

NOW ONLY IF VEGITO COULD GO TO SSJ3, then:

buu arc ssj vegito - 0.1
buu arc ssj2 vegito - 0.2
buu arc ssj3 vegito - 0.8
bog arc ssj vegito - 0.3-0.4 (considering ssjg3 goku and ssj vegeta gains after buu arc)
bog arc ssj2 vegito - 0.6- 0.8
bog arc ssj3 vegito - 2.4 - 3.2

ALSO, that assuming beerus at least used 1% of his power, but he may be at 2% when Goku thought that as when against rage vegeta he didn't look like powering 10 times. so if beerus was at 2% then.

buu arc ssj vegito - 0.2
buu arc ssj2 vegito - 0.4
buu arc ssj3 vegito - 1.6
bog arc ssj vegito - 0.4-0.5 (considering ssjg3 goku and ssj vegeta gains after buu arc)
bog arc ssj2 vegito - 0.8-1.0
bog arc ssj3 vegito - 3.2 - 4

[LowRyder2005]

Why are some people not accepting Piccolo has to be God tier

Because, quite simply, there is nothing proving he is, there are a lot of remarks here and there screaming "Piccolo you are so weak" to the viewer and everything you listed is anything but conclusive proof of this particular claim.

The only reason you people keep daying he is not God tier is because Goku said nothing. I virtually can guarantee you that at the start of the next episode he wil say to Piccolo you have got strong and I underestimated you.

It wouldn't matter, because EVEN THAT kind of statement would not be conclusive proof. You do understand saying "hey, you got a lot stronger" is not "you are about as strong as me when I fought Beerus"?

[DBZGTKOSDH]

Why are some people not accepting Piccolo has to be God tier

Because he is on par with a weakened Ultimate Gohan.

As for Goku, we are shown that after he absorbed the power of SSG, the difference between his base & SS forms was shown to be really. Against Frost though, we see that the difference between these forms is once again huge. So, it makes more sense to assume that Goku (and Vegeta) can turn on & off the SSG power in his base form, or we have a bag full of plot holes.

[namekiansaiyan]

Why are some people not accepting Piccolo has to be God tier

Because, quite simply, there is nothing proving he is, there are a lot of remarks here and there screaming "Piccolo you are so weak" to the viewer and everything you listed is anything but conclusive proof of this particular claim.

The only reason you people keep daying he is not God tier is because Goku said nothing. I virtually can guarantee you that at the start of the next episode he wil say to Piccolo you have got strong and I underestimated you.

It wouldn't matter, because EVEN THAT kind of statement would not be conclusive proof. You do understand saying "hey, you got a lot stronger" is not "you are about as strong as me when I fought Beerus"?

So what proof is needed is then I think we were given enough, you must obviously be a Gohan fan or just hate Piccolo.
Toe the most important statement is that Piccolo said that everyone is underestimating him.

[Lionel]

It's amazing how quick people are to jump at the conclusion of such an event being an impossibility when we already have precedent for incredible leaps dating all the way back to the Saiyan arc when Piccolo implausibly skyrocketed his power from below Goku at 416 to somewhere above Tenshinan during the battle against Nappa and below 2800 Gohan. People are more easily accepting of SSJ2 Vegeta robbing Gohan of his gimmick and becoming momentarily dangerous to Beerus for no reason at all than Piccolo making another leap that has symptomatically allowed him to close the distance between himself and the Saiyans to some degree. The only real consistency to this series is that there is no consistency. Toriyama writes based off whims and what's most effective for the immediate situation. If it were left up to the people in this topic, I assume the humans would have been left to rot somewhere below Piccolo Daimao.

[LowRyder2005]

Why are some people not accepting Piccolo has to be God tier

Because, quite simply, there is nothing proving he is, there are a lot of remarks here and there screaming "Piccolo you are so weak" to the viewer and everything you listed is anything but conclusive proof of this particular claim.

The only reason you people keep daying he is not God tier is because Goku said nothing. I virtually can guarantee you that at the start of the next episode he wil say to Piccolo you have got strong and I underestimated you.

It wouldn't matter, because EVEN THAT kind of statement would not be conclusive proof. You do understand saying "hey, you got a lot stronger" is not "you are about as strong as me when I fought Beerus"?

So what proof is needed is then I think we were given enough, you must obviously be a Gohan fan or just hate Piccolo.
Toe the most important statement is that Piccolo said that everyone is underestimating him.

I don't want to sound unkind, but It doesn't take a bachelor or a Piccolo hater (which I'm not) to understand you implemented a poor choice of words, examples, and/or your reasoning was way off.

So, what if Goku says Piccolo is stronger than he thought? How does that prove he is on par with a Super Saiyan God? You do understand the two things are not correlated, right?
If a teacher says to a pupil he has done better than "what he had thought" on a math test, does that mean he is as good as the teacher?

Again, it would be a different story if Goku said something which was a direct comparison - which your example, again, is not - like: "Piccolo, you did great, you were as strong as I was when I battled Beerus". Or, y'know, "almost as strong". That would be conclusive. Anything else, so far, points to the guys treating Piccolo like an ant playing against elephants, while still treating Mr. Buu as a much more useful powerhouse in the tournament's economy. This alone is a huge indicator of Mr. Buu being way stronger than Piccolo.

It's amazing how quick people are to jump at the conclusion of such an event being an impossibility when we already have precedent for incredible leaps dating all the way back to the Saiyan arc when Piccolo implausibly skyrocketed his power from below Goku at 416 to somewhere above Tenshinan during the battle against Nappa and below 2800 Gohan. People are more easily accepting of SSJ2 Vegeta robbing Gohan of his gimmick and becoming momentarily dangerous to Beerus for no reason at all than Piccolo making another leap that has symptomatically allowed him to close the distance between himself and the Saiyans to some degree. The only real consistency to this series is that there is no consistency. Toriyama writes based off whims and what's most effective for the immediate situation. If it were left up to the people in this topic, I assume the humans would have been left to rot somewhere below Piccolo Daimao.

Let's not get it twisted, please: most users here debating actively are just addressing other users who are stating that Piccolo reaching a supposed God tier is a fact, or something really short of a proven fact, just arguing that there is room to doubt their claim for some reason or another. Everyone on both sides is, however, well aware their arguments could crumble from one episode to another.
RandomGuy96 best summarized the inconsistencies of such an unusual power-up in the series continuity; even if you want to limit yourself to Super's own coherence, it would leave quite a lot of headscratchers concerning the characters' actions and general sentiment towards Piccolo and his supposedly ignored gigantic gains thus far, in a fair number of situations (i.e. seeing him fight Gohan at a level far beyond Super Saiyan 3s and not even commenting he had gotten vastly stronger; worrying a lot for Mr. Buu missing the fights when, proportionally, he would basically be the equivalent of Mr. Satan in the 23rd Tenkaichi Budokai compared to everyone else and therefore useless, among possibly others).

[namekiansaiyan]

So what proof is needed is then I think we were given enough, you must obviously be a Gohan fan or just hate Piccolo.
Toe the most important statement is that Piccolo said that everyone is underestimating him.

I don't want to sound unkind, but It doesn't take a bachelor or a Piccolo hater (which I'm not) to understand you implemented a poor choice of words, examples, and/or your reasoning was way off.

So, what if Goku says Piccolo is stronger than he thought? How does that prove he is on par with a Super Saiyan God? You do understand the two things are not correlated, right?
If a teacher says to a pupil he has done better than "what he had thought" on a math test, does that mean he is as good as the teacher?

Again, it would be a different story if Goku said something which was a direct comparison - which your example, again, is not - like: "Piccolo, you did great, you were as strong as I was when I battled Beerus". Or, y'know, "almost as strong". That would be conclusive. Anything else, so far, points to the guys treating Piccolo like an ant playing against elephants, while still treating Mr. Buu as a much more useful powerhouse in the tournament's economy. This alone is a huge indicator of Mr. Buu being way stronger than Piccolo.

More people definitely agree with me more than they do you and that is what I have been getting from around the internet.
When has a character ever said someone has got as strong as me at specific time.

[LowRyder2005]

So what proof is needed is then I think we were given enough, you must obviously be a Gohan fan or just hate Piccolo.
Toe the most important statement is that Piccolo said that everyone is underestimating him.

I don't want to sound unkind, but It doesn't take a bachelor or a Piccolo hater (which I'm not) to understand you implemented a poor choice of words, examples, and/or your reasoning was way off.

So, what if Goku says Piccolo is stronger than he thought? How does that prove he is on par with a Super Saiyan God? You do understand the two things are not correlated, right?
If a teacher says to a pupil he has done better than "what he had thought" on a math test, does that mean he is as good as the teacher?

Again, it would be a different story if Goku said something which was a direct comparison - which your example, again, is not - like: "Piccolo, you did great, you were as strong as I was when I battled Beerus". Or, y'know, "almost as strong". That would be conclusive. Anything else, so far, points to the guys treating Piccolo like an ant playing against elephants, while still treating Mr. Buu as a much more useful powerhouse in the tournament's economy. This alone is a huge indicator of Mr. Buu being way stronger than Piccolo.

More people definitely agree with me more than they do you and that is what I have been getting from around the internet.
When has a character ever said someone has got as strong as me at specific time.

You know what? You are right.
I mean, seriously, how can I argue with what a lot people are saying on the internet? It must be true then.

[namekiansaiyan]

You know what? You are right.
I mean, seriously, how can I argue with what a lot people are saying on the internet? It must be true then.

So basically you are saying that I should not listen and take into account other people's opinions. You are also saying that everything I have said is incorrect and everything you say is correct and fact which is wrong.

[dbgtFO]

You know what? You are right.
I mean, seriously, how can I argue with what a lot people are saying on the internet? It must be true then.

So basically you are saying that I should not listen and take into account other people's opinions. You are also saying that everything I have said is incorrect and everything you say is correct and fact which is wrong.

People agreeing with you does not mean your claim is correct and LowRyder did not state his claim was the truth, just look a couple of posts above yours:

Let's not get it twisted, please: most users here debating actively are just addressing other users who are stating that Piccolo reaching a supposed God tier is a fact, or something really short of a proven fact, just arguing that there is room to doubt their claim for some reason or another. Everyone on both sides is, however, well aware their arguments could crumble from one episode to another.

I find it utterly childish to witness you and others start throwing your toys out of the pram just because people don't agree with your viewpoints. Do you really have to sort to calling people Gohan fans and Piccolo haters just because you can't handle people disagreeing with you?
It would be the same, if I started claiming you were a bunch of Piccolo fanboys desperate for just a little hint you could take to absurd heights, because the show isn't doing Pickle-man justice otherwise. That's not how to handle a debate at all and not exactly the standard the guys in charge wants us to have, so please let's take a step back from this and think things through and acknowledge that both sides have valid points, instead of resorting to jibes like that. If there was proof of Piccolo's supposed superiority to SSGod or whatever it is, people are claiming, then I wouldn't doubt either.

[LowRyder2005]

You know what? You are right.
I mean, seriously, how can I argue with what a lot people are saying on the internet? It must be true then.

So basically you are saying that I should not listen and take into account other people's opinions. You are also saying that everything I have said is incorrect and everything you say is correct and fact which is wrong.

To sum it up, in three posts you have:

1. Proclaimed something as a fact with some... well, let's just say "debatable" logic.
2. Said to my counter-argument that I must be a Piccolo hater or a Gohan's fan (I mean, what's even the correlation between the two is beyond me: do all Gohan's fans hate Piccolo? Why would I hate Piccolo... why even, oh, well).
3. Stressed you are proclaiming undeniable facts because, according to you, and I quote:

"more people definitely agree with me more than they do you"

4. Now arguing that I said you should not take into account other people's opinion. Which would again amount a logical contradiction, because I'm trying to make you hear my own opinion.

This should be the time when you take a breath of fresh air.

[apex_pretador]

My take:

Mystic gohan - 26
Current gohan - 30
Piccolo (RoF) - 1 = gohan RoF (base)
SS gohan RoF - 12 , enraged - 24

Vegetto - 400
Buuhan - 47

[namekiansaiyan]

You know what? You are right.
I mean, seriously, how can I argue with what a lot people are saying on the internet? It must be true then.

So basically you are saying that I should not listen and take into account other people's opinions. You are also saying that everything I have said is incorrect and everything you say is correct and fact which is wrong.

People agreeing with you does not mean your claim is correct and LowRyder did not state his claim was the truth, just look a couple of posts above yours:

Let's not get it twisted, please: most users here debating actively are just addressing other users who are stating that Piccolo reaching a supposed God tier is a fact, or something really short of a proven fact, just arguing that there is room to doubt their claim for some reason or another. Everyone on both sides is, however, well aware their arguments could crumble from one episode to another.

I find it utterly childish to witness you and others start throwing your toys out of the pram just because people don't agree with your viewpoints. Do you really have to sort to calling people Gohan fans and Piccolo haters just because you can't handle people disagreeing with you?
It would be the same, if I started claiming you were a bunch of Piccolo fanboys desperate for just a little hint you could take to absurd heights, because the show isn't doing Pickle-man justice otherwise. That's not how to handle a debate at all and not exactly the standard the guys in charge wants us to have, so please let's take a step back from this and think things through and acknowledge that both sides have valid points, instead of resorting to jibes like that. If there was proof of Piccolo's supposed superiority to SSGod or whatever it is, people are claiming, then I wouldn't doubt either.

I came to a conclusion from the points I listed which are almost certainly true as of now and I am getting told that the points are not true by LowRyder2005 even though they happened in the episode.

[Lionel]

Let's not get it twisted, please: most users here debating actively are just addressing other users who are stating that Piccolo reaching a supposed God tier is a fact, or something really short of a proven fact, just arguing that there is room to doubt their claim for some reason or another. Everyone on both sides is, however, well aware their arguments could crumble from one episode to another. RandomGuy96 best summarized the inconsistencies of such an unusual power-up in the series continuity; even if you want to limit yourself to Super's own coherence, it would leave quite a lot of headscratchers concerning the characters' actions and general sentiment towards Piccolo and his supposedly ignored gigantic gains thus far, in a fair number of situations (i.e. seeing him fight Gohan at a level far beyond Super Saiyan 3s and not even commenting he had gotten vastly stronger; worrying a lot for Mr. Buu missing the fights when, proportionally, he would basically be the equivalent of Mr. Satan in the 23rd Tenkaichi Budokai compared to everyone else and therefore useless, among possibly others).

Having reviewed the test scene just now, I don't see where this disconcertion you cited is. Both Goku and Vegeta didn't show any particular concern over Buu being disqualified -- in fact, Vegeta goes on to assert that Buu's intellectual negligence is the reason for why he was opposed to recruiting him in the first place. Although when it was originally discussed his expressed grievance lied in Buu's proneness to anger and the fact he was easily taken out by Beerus. Goku's responce in justifying Buu's assignment was a simple investment that his strength would increase once he got serious, that's it. In spite of having the greatest potential according to Vegeta, Gohan wasn't suggested until after Buu and Piccolo. If you were referencing the manga's rendition of that scene then understand that events have already alternated between it and the anime. Buu also happens to possess one of the greatest reservoirs of stamina and regeneration in the series. He can almost assuredly win in any battle of attrition. Moreover, his techniques would allow for him to oppose a stronger fighter to the point where even if he doesn't win, he should be capable of weakening the opponent. His immunity to poison -- as demonstrated when he ingested Mr Satan's tainted chocolates -- as well as his physiologically absorbent body would have likely made him a perfect opponent for Frost.

Goku's claims of Piccolo being too inferior to warrant any significant presence in the fights was already contradicted when we saw Frost's attacks being avoided and blocked. He was literally unable to escape when Piccolo ensnared him with his makeshift arm rope. He needed to use an unknown poisoned needle to stop Piccolo. What's more important is Piccolo's admission that everyone was underestimating him, that includes Goku. If we take Goku's claims to heart then Piccolo should not have been able to accomplish such feats that necessitate the use of one's power. Then in the preview you have Vegeta transforming into a Super Saiyan presumably against Frost and Hit getting personally involved for the first time. As of yet there's been virtually no time for Goku or anyone else to comment on Piccolo. The main concern at the moment is Frost's poisoned needle and his disqualification from the tournament.

In responce to your citation of RandomGuy96 -- we don't know what the specifics of Piccolo's training during 10 year time skip entailed. He could have been busy sparring by himself in the wilderness or he simply meditated atop Kami's Lookout the whole time. Piccolo's power can multiply itself after less than a week of training on King Kai's -- far greater than that of Goku's who spent 6 months there instead of just 6 days -- yet we're arguing over whether he even surpassed Mr Buu while training with Gohan? I will grant that at the time of the Buu arc, his entering the ROSAT likely would not have been enough since he all but admitted that the Earth's fate rested in Goten and Trunks's hands. In the same respect, Vegeta was allegedly pushed beyond his limits with the Majin charm and he was sitting at his maximum next to SSJ2 Goku after having come to terms with his inferiority. However, later events have since recanted this fact and Vegeta was able to push himself up to a point where fans are disputing whether his non-enraged SSJ2 state could have been greater than Mystic Gohan. The same could easily apply to Piccolo who is certainly no stranger to massive power ups.

[fexus]

I don't understand why is there such an obvious hatred for Piccolo being strong. It's not that hard of logic to understand. Everything shown in the episode itself shows that Piccolo is at least strong enough to fight a weakened Final Form Frost that is at least stronger than Base Goku who is a lot stronger than almost anyone in Buu arc. Is it that hard of a concept to think that Piccolo could get that strong? Is it really impossible? If everything in Dragon Ball need a super obvious statement to be true half the fandom wouldn't even exist discussing things. Even now the powerlevels of the characters even in the Saiyan and Cell arc still isn't resolved.