Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[Hellspawn28]

That's how I rank the fighters so far:

SSB Goku | SSB Vegeta
Hit (suppressed)
SbG Goku | SbG Vegeta
Majin Boo
Magetta (powered-up)
SS Goku | SS Vegeta
SS Cabba
Final Form Frost
Piccolo
Assault Form Frost
Base Goku | Base Vegeta
Base Cabba
Magetta (initially)
First Form Frost
Botamo
Monaka

Buu is rank too high. Goku had to go SSj against Frost while he didn't need to against ROF 4th form Freeza. Goku is much stronger than he was in ROF. Final Form Frost could easily beat any form of Buu without much effort.

[Lord Beerus]

Is it me or would Buu wipe the deck against every U6 fighter in this tournament? Botamo is a weakling, Frost's ace in the hole is poison which wouldn't work on Buu, Magetta becomes weak if you insult, something Buu does a lot, SSJ Cabba can't do shit against SSJ Vegeta, and Hit so far seems to aim for vitals which Buu doesn't have, so Hit wouldn't be able to do jack shit to him. No wonder Toriyama wrote Buu out of the tournament, seems like he could clean house without the need of Goku or Vegeta.

[Super Saiyan Turlast x4]

Boo can't be knocked out of a ring?

I don't see him being any higher than Botamo tier, if that. I don't even think Frost would need poison to stomp Mr. Boo.

[Lord Beerus]

That's how I rank the fighters so far:

SSB Goku | SSB Vegeta
Hit (suppressed)
SbG Goku | SbG Vegeta
Majin Boo
Magetta (powered-up)
SS Goku | SS Vegeta
SS Cabba
Final Form Frost
Piccolo
Assault Form Frost
Base Goku | Base Vegeta
Base Cabba
Magetta (initially)
First Form Frost
Botamo
Monaka

Buu is rank too high. Goku had to go SSj against Frost while he didn't need to against ROF 4th form Freeza. Goku is much stronger than he was in ROF. Final Form Frost could easily beat any form of Buu without much effort.

Freeza or Goku being stronger than Majin Boo would work heavily against EOZ, which so far, for all intents and purposes is still intact. I mean, what it the evidence for Base Goku or Final Form Freeza being stronger than Majin Boo anyway?

[ZombieVito]

It's funny how people continue to regard a fodder like Buu so highly just for the sake of maintaining his reputation as a universal threat. We're talking about a show where technological enhancements could enable two teenagers to overwhelm legendary warriors who are capable of utterly humiliating a planet-busting, universally-renowned tyrant. Buu's reputation losing value is not good enough of a reason to try and squeeze everyone into a watered down power scale.

With the exclusion of Buu, I agree with your placements. I'd place the pink blob around Botamo-tier at best; far below Piccolo and Frost to say the least.

Final Form Frost > Piccolo > Assault Form Frost > Buuhan / First Form Frost / First Form Frieza > Buutenks > SSJ3 Goku (BoG), is how I see it.

There's no way Piccolo is over Boo. Goku was going to take Boo and Gohan along and discard Piccolo.

The maximum I'd put Piccolo in the U6 arc is SSJ2 tier.

Is it me or would Buu wipe the deck against every U6 fighter in this tournament? Botamo is a weakling, Frost's ace in the hole is poison which wouldn't work on Buu, Magetta becomes weak if you insult, something Buu does a lot, SSJ Cabba can't do shit against SSJ Vegeta, and Hit so far seems to aim for vitals which Buu doesn't have, so Hit wouldn't be able to do jack shit to him. No wonder Toriyama wrote Buu out of the tournament, seems like he could clean house without the need of Goku or Vegeta.

Boo would be able to beat Botamo and base Cabba easily but I can't see him beating final form Frost, Magetta and SSJ Cabba.

[Chiki]

That's how I rank the fighters so far:

SSB Goku | SSB Vegeta
Hit (suppressed)
SbG Goku | SbG Vegeta
Majin Boo
Magetta (powered-up)
SS Goku | SS Vegeta
SS Cabba
Final Form Frost
Piccolo
Assault Form Frost
Base Goku | Base Vegeta
Base Cabba
Magetta (initially)
First Form Frost
Botamo
Monaka

Buu is rank too high. Goku had to go SSj against Frost while he didn't need to against ROF 4th form Freeza. Goku is much stronger than he was in ROF. Final Form Frost could easily beat any form of Buu without much effort.

Freeza or Goku being stronger than Majin Boo would work heavily against EOZ, which so far, for all intents and purposes is still intact. I mean, what it the evidence for Base Goku or Final Form Freeza being stronger than Majin Boo anyway?

A combination of these reasons:

1. Toriyama himself confirmed that Goku kept SSG power and he doesn't need to transform anymore to access it, he can access it in Base.
2. 10% Beerus >>>>>>>> Buu (he owned SS2 Rageta with 10% of his power and beat Buu with even less than that)
3. Goku is 60% of Beerus, so Base Goku w/ godly ki >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Buu.

Pretty sure Goku wasn't using any kind of godly ki against Frost.

I'm confident that Buu could beat Final Form Frost easily since Piccolo defeated Final Form Frost and Piccolo is at best SPC or Dabura level. I don't buy that he became god-level, which is the only other possible alternative to the two-bases theory (the only other alternative being that Base Goku always has SSG power and he cannot control it).

[supercat]

What problems does Base Goku and Base Vegeta going forward as Saiyan Beyond God level really create? Can't the U6 fighters just be that strong? It's natural progression.

I really don't get the impression that there's two Base forms. That seems to unnecessarily complicate things.

As always, very well said. The two bases nonsense is by far the most ridiculous speculation I've personally encountered.

This is a series tailored for a younger demographic, what would be the benefit of discreetly convoluting it? Not only that, the show has a track record of exaggerated progression.

I adhere to the following:

Final Form Frost > Piccolo > Assault Form Frost > Base Saiyans > Buuhan / First Form Frost / First Form Frieza >>> all other forms of Buu

[ZombieVito]

What problems does Base Goku and Base Vegeta going forward as Saiyan Beyond God level really create? Can't the U6 fighters just be that strong? It's natural progression.

I really don't get the impression that there's two Base forms. That seems to unnecessarily complicate things.

As always, very well said. The two bases nonsense is by far the most ridiculous speculation I've personally encountered.

This is a series tailored for a younger demographic, what would be the benefit of discreetly convoluting it? Not only that, the show has a track record of exaggerated progression.

I adhere to the following:

Final Form Frost > Piccolo > Assault Form Frost > Base Saiyans > Buuhan / First Form Frost / First Form Frieza >>> all other forms of Buu

I'll say it again. Goku was going to take Boo instead of Piccolo when Gohan volunteered to go.

Piccolo has not yet surpassed Boo.

[dbzfan7]

Pretty sure Goku wasn't using any kind of godly ki against Frost.

I'm confident that Buu could beat Final Form Frost easily since Piccolo defeated Final Form Frost and Piccolo is at best SPC or Dabura level. I don't buy that he became god-level, which is the only other possible alternative to the two-bases theory (the only other alternative being that Base Goku always has SSG power and he cannot control it).

One of the reasons I'm starting to buy the two base theory, is because Goku didn't just use Super Saiyan in his bout with Hit. SSJ does not drain stamina anymore. Goku fixed that in the Cell arc. So why not just use it to power up without losing stamina? Seems to me the SBG is a thing after all, and that's why SSJ wasn't used.

I'll say it again. Goku was going to take Boo instead of Piccolo when Gohan volunteered to go.

Piccolo has not yet surpassed Boo.

There's also a big deal when Boo couldn't fight. Why would that matter if everyone is laughably stronger than he is? Also Hit is the only one Goku and Vegeta were concerned about. They even seem to mention the keeping ki inside thing Goku and Vegeta were doing with Whis training.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

It's funny how people continue to regard a fodder like Buu so highly just for the sake of maintaining his reputation as a universal threat.

That's not why I place him there. It's because Boo was stronger than SS2 Goku in Boo arc, and I don't thing that the current SS Goku has become extremely stronger than Boo arc SS Goku.

Buu is rank too high. Goku had to go SSj against Frost while he didn't need to against ROF 4th form Freeza. Goku is much stronger than he was in ROF. Final Form Frost could easily beat any form of Buu without much effort.

FnF Freeza is much stronger than Frost.

What problems does Base Goku and Base Vegeta going forward as Saiyan Beyond God level really create? Can't the U6 fighters just be that strong? It's natural progression.

And the biggest problem is that base Goku is portrayed to be at the level of SSG, and regular Super Saiyan is portrayed to be giving a really small boost now, not to mention that SSB's description implies that it replaced it. Yet not only we see regular Super Saiyan in the tournament, it also gives the same x50 boost as it did before. Add that Piccolo is placed between base & SS, like he was in Boo arc.

I also find it hard to believe because Botamo & Frost are supposed to be lazy fighters that haven't trained much because the first relies in his special ability & the other relies on tricks, and Cabba is shown to be a young Saiyan with the potential to be great, not that he has already become great.

And Piccolo had already reached his limits since the Cell Games & couldn't even surpass the Super Saiyans all these years, yet he suddenly reaches the level of gods after a few months and no one even notices it? He was even considered weaker than Majin Boo when they were creating the team, and we saw him being on par with a weakened Ultimate Gohan (his hairstyle has changed once again, but his eyes are still normal) and no one threw even a hint that he has suddenly become so strong?

I really don't get the impression that there's two Base forms. That seems to unnecessarily complicate things.

Personally, I mainly go by it because it is officially a thing in video-games (Dragon Ball Heroes specifically). Why would they make up a form that doesn't exist? People call this a fan-theory when it really isn't a fan-theory. The real fan-theory is that Super retconned things.

[LowRyder2005]

More or less, I agree with Lord Beerus and Zombie.
While we have no idea how Buu actually compares to the U6 fighters, it makes much more sense to highball him than lowball him at least at this point in the story.
Putting aside the general feeling that Buu is still supposed to be a boss (and stronger than Piccolo and Gohan, by what the characters have implied this far), if you try to put yourself in the author's shoes it appears, I'd say, very likely that he felt the need to move Buu to the sidelines because he could've hindered his intended story progression.
I doubt there is any rhyme or reason he would have avoided Buu jobbing to one of the opponents in order to create interest.

[Lord Beerus]

A combination of these reasons:

1. Toriyama himself confirmed that Goku kept SSG power and he doesn't need to transform anymore to access it, he can access it in Base.
2. 10% Beerus >>>>>>>> Buu (he owned SS2 Rageta with 10% of his power and beat Buu with even less than that)
3. Goku is 60% of Beerus, so Base Goku w/ godly ki >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Buu.

Goten and Trunks could sense Goku's ki during his battle against Freeza while he was in his base form. Unless Goten and Trunks suddenly developed the ability to sense Godly ki off-screen, then Goku was not using Godly ki when he was fighting Final Form Freeza in the ROF arc, and by that virtue, wasn't utilising the power of the Super Saiyan God form in his base.

[Chiki]

What problems does Base Goku and Base Vegeta going forward as Saiyan Beyond God level really create? Can't the U6 fighters just be that strong? It's natural progression.

I really don't get the impression that there's two Base forms. That seems to unnecessarily complicate things.

As always, very well said. The two bases nonsense is by far the most ridiculous speculation I've personally encountered.

This is a series tailored for a younger demographic, what would be the benefit of discreetly convoluting it? Not only that, the show has a track record of exaggerated progression.

I adhere to the following:

Final Form Frost > Piccolo > Assault Form Frost > Base Saiyans > Buuhan / First Form Frost / First Form Frieza >>> all other forms of Buu

You guys really need to reexamine your reasoning. Why would Goku be so excited about Buu joining the tourney when First From Frost would have beaten him like he's nothing? How did Piccolo become a god tier since RoF? Impossible.

That's why we need the two bases theory, lol. It's that simple. Why won't people just acknowledge that Goku and Vegeta aren't taking this tourney seriously (until Hit), so they don't need to tap into SSG yet?

Goten and Trunks could sense Goku's ki during his battle against Freeza while he was in his base form. Unless Goten and Trunks suddenly developed the ability to sense Godly ki off-screen, then Goku was not using Godly ki when he was fighting Final Form Freeza in the ROF arc, and by that virtue, wasn't utilising the power of the Super Saiyan God form in his base.

Like I've said many times, it's possible that Base Goku w/ godly ki has some SSG power mixed with his regular ki. Alternatively, he can compensate for the loss of SSG's godly ki with regular ki only.

[namekiansaiyan]

I'll say it again. Goku was going to take Boo instead of Piccolo when Gohan volunteered to go.

Piccolo has not yet surpassed Boo.

Piccolo said everyone is underestimating him.


Why does everyone say God tier power. What is God tier power anyway, because many of you lot pratically say that if a character is weaker than Goku or Vegeta then they can't have God tier power. God tier can include people below Goku and Vegeta aswell.

Also there is not 2 bases, the Goku fighting Hit is in the exact same form as the Goku fighting Botamo.

[ZombieVito]

I just don't buy the two base theory anymore. There's nothing indicating a change in power. Nothing at all.

Even Ultimate Gohan had small changes in his expression.

[Bullza]

I mean, what it the evidence for Base Goku or Final Form Freeza being stronger than Majin Boo anyway?

- Frieza is told that Goku beat Buu and he still decides to fight him in his Final Form. Then at the end of that fight he tells Goku he's stronger than he thought, well he thought he was stronger than Buu.

- Goku and Vegeta put up a better fight against Whis than SSJ3 Goku did against Beerus.

- Goku and Vegeta took "hits" from a unrestrained Beerus when he was asleep and were mostly OK. Beerus at less than 10% casually flicked SSJ3 Goku and sent him flying, he did the same to Gotenks.

- Base Gohan is about on par with Piccolo so SSJ Gohan is 50x stronger than that, Frieza in his first form is stronger than that and in his Final Form he's supposed to exponentially more powerful. It was over 200x on Namek.

[Chiki]

I just don't buy the two base theory anymore. There's nothing indicating a change in power. Nothing at all.

Even Ultimate Gohan had small changes in his expression.

So what? It's confusing, but there are no good alternatives. Let's see the alternatives:

1. Everyone in U6 is god level - bull crap because Buu didn't train at all and he is considered by Goku to be one of the strongest fighters in either team. Also because of Piccolo's insane power boost to god tier.
2. Base Goku and Vegeta are actually relatively weak (maybe SS3 level) and not SSG level anymore - contradicted by Toriyama himself among other issues (how did Base Goku surpass Final Form Frieza without SSG power? etc.)

Also, I've already said that this is a very bad argument. It's true that there is nothing indicating a change in power. However, there have also been no comments whatsoever about Piccolo and Buu's insane power boosts. All views in this argument suffer from a lack of statements, not just mine.

If you have an alternative, please say so. Until then, we have to accept that the two bases theory is right, because it's by far the best view which explains everything and it has already been accepted in video games and RoF. It's probably only a matter of time until we get some evidence.

[Lord Beerus]

Personally, I mainly go by it because it is officially a thing in video-games (Dragon Ball Heroes specifically). Why would they make up a form that doesn't exist? People call this a fan-theory when it really isn't a fan-theory. The real fan-theory is that Super retconned things.

Dragon Ball Hereos has also given us bullshit like Angered Golden Freeza and Angered Beerus. Dragon Ball Hereos is as official to the anime as the Book of Mormon is to the Bible.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

Goten and Trunks could sense Goku's ki during his battle against Freeza while he was in his base form. Unless Goten and Trunks suddenly developed the ability to sense Godly ki off-screen, then Goku was not using Godly ki when he was fighting Final Form Freeza in the ROF arc, and by that virtue, wasn't utilising the power of the Super Saiyan God form in his base.

They could also sense SS Goku's ki in BoG arc, who was stated to have the power of SSG & stated to be exactly as strong as SSG. The power of SSG & god ki are 2 different things.

Dragon Ball Hereos has also given us bullshit like Angered Golden Freeza and Angered Beerus.

Totally not the same thing.

[Skar]

I'll say it again. Goku was going to take Boo instead of Piccolo when Gohan volunteered to go.

Piccolo has not yet surpassed Boo.

Was it implied that Piccolo even trained before the tournament in the DBS manga? I mean if it's something Toriyama came up with then I would assume Toyotaro would include it in the manga. If not then Gohan and Piccolo training together might've been just anime filler. That would be insane for him to reach God tier within a few months. He barely improves in the 12 years or so since the Cell saga and there's no indication he ever surpassed a Cell Jr but in a few months he surpasses everyone in the Buu saga just to lose in his first fight?

I'm not sure about the two base theory. It makes sense if you consider the alternative and that Buu was disqualified before the tournament even began. If everyone was supposed to be God tier then why not just have Mr. Buu lose in the first round to show off their strength? It could be that mastering SSJ Blue encompasses all their god ki so their base and SSJ1 go back to normal? I don't know but I wish Super would at least give us an idea of how strong everyone is relative to each other. I don't care for power levels, I just want a simple comparison to someone they've fought before like they used to do in the manga.